3Dice Swings

[me_and_ed]

I have been a long time supporter of 3Dice so this thread may piss a few people off including Enzo. I have had it with the swings, there is no in between here with this place, most of the time it is a money sucking vortex, this really pains me because the casino has by far the best service out there, instant payments and at least some form of personal service, however there needs to be some more wins, have we ever seen verified payout reports? I am not a sour grapes player but would like some other input here, are your swings as drastic as mine, I find 3Dice swings to be more extreme than any other software provider I play at.

 

[chuchu59]

You certainly havent pissed me off. The swings are really wild for many of the slots and you get a certain gut feeling that whenever you start spinning it could be a really long time before you can hit anything worth mentioning.

BTW, anyone heard of Enzo lately. Havent seen him around and didnt answer pm dating 2 weeks back

 

[CasinoKidd]

I have been a long time supporter of 3Dice so this thread may piss a few people off including Enzo. I have had it with the swings, there is no in between here with this place, most of the time it is a money sucking vortex, this really pains me because the casino has by far the best service out there, instant payments and at least some form of personal service, however there needs to be some more wins, have we ever seen verified payout reports? I am not a sour grapes player but would like some other input here, are your swings as drastic as mine, I find 3Dice swings to be more extreme than any other software provider I play at.

You certainly havent pissed me off. The swings are really wild for many of the slots and you get a certain gut feeling that whenever you start spinning it could be a really long time before you can hit anything worth mentioning.

BTW, anyone heard of Enzo lately. Havent seen him around and didnt answer pm dating 2 weeks back

I, sadly, have to agree here. I get pretty good wins in S.S. and Tut, but otherwise I stay away from the other slots. Reasoning:

F.F. - Yes, I know the 5 butterflies is great. I have gotten them once over thousands of spins, and the rest of the time it's a badddddd slot.

H.V. - I feel like it's similar to S.S. except with a worse bonus.

S.P. - Fun slot. Bad bonus.

M.M. - Fun, but I am angry when my bonus round pays a lovely $54.

Industria - No comment.

 

[me_and_ed]

BTW, anyone heard of Enzo lately. Havent seen him around and didnt answer pm dating 2 weeks back

He has not answered my last couple emails, maybe he is taking some well deserved holidays.....or just too busy and tired of answering emails.

 

[anniemac]

I don't have swings. Everytime I try to swing the rope breaks and I just keep falling and falling and falling. Or should I say losing and losing and losing.

I even tried the tournaments. Boy I thought I was doing good yesterday. Hit big several times and was up $2000. By the end of the hour I had lost $2000 plus $700 of the original $1000 I started with. I decided real quick that I didn't need to play slot tournaments if I wanted to ever think about depositing again. Tournament play leaves you time to look at what you are doing.

Great job to you folks that hit there but for me it's a big black hole with a Hoover vac on the other end.

 

[Fleur-De-Lis]

He has not answered my last couple emails, maybe he is taking some well deserved holidays.....or just too busy and tired of answering emails.

I exchanged PM's with Enzo yesterday, so he is around

 

[me_and_ed]

I exchanged PM's with Enzo yesterday, so he is around

I figured he was tired of answering my emails.

 

[LaHutti]

Sometimes I get the feeling, that some of the players at 3Dice forget, that it's a business, just like all the other casinos out there.
They just chose to do it differently, with the fun chat room, and the free tournament thing (That has to be paid for, by the way....by the depositing players), and all the friendly support people (Who are all getting paid by the way ... by the depositing players), all to make you forget, that it's cold business, and sofar it seems, that it's been working pretty well, and nothing wrong with good business, in my opinion
This, and the fact that you'll see some pretty big wins (That has to be paid for by the way ....by all the losing players), even though they are rare, and the fact that behind the whole thing, is money people, who expect to see their investments grow (now, where would that money come from ?), will leave a lot of losers behind (losing players that is....not calling names here ).
I'm not one to give advice, but please don't forget, that it IS cold business in the end.
Just my 2 cents on that.

 

[3Dice]

Hi guys,

I did just get back from holiday - give me some time to catch up with everything. Also keep in mind that for the swiftest response its best
to contact supportteam@ before contacting me personally. (supportteam is available 24/7 whereas I never manage to get past that 20hr/day mark )

Me_And_Ed, I'll send you a pm with some of your stats. The past month you've been unlucky indeed but on a lifetime scale, you're still above 100% on several of our slots. You've been up as well as down, and are now still at the point where one lucky spin can easily put you ahead again. Keep in mind that on any machine, a spin paying out 1000x betsize always comes with 1000 spins that don't pay out. It's exactly because of that tho that one can still easily get ahead in one session even after a longer period of bad luck.

I do appreciate that things can look grim if lady luck is not on your side, we don't get to chose the winners tho, but I promise I'll be rooting for you.

Kindest Regards,

Enzo

 

[vinylweatherman]

3Dice slots are higher variance than most, and they can generate some truly spectacular, if rare, payouts. I tend to deposit 50 per month, sometimes twice in a month. Most sessions are losers, but a while back I had two good sessions on the trot, making up for the all the past losses and going slightly ahead. Supersuits was the big winner, with several good free spin rounds, including a 4 "thingy" retrigger on one.

3 Card Poker also rewarded me with a straight flush for a 250 "leg - up" during my play.

Normal service has now been resumed, and Supersuits has eaten my latest two 50 deposits.

I tried Industria, and it seems lower variance than the others, so long as you also bet on colours. I did not get a sniff of the bonus round though, so that may not be as good as some of the others.

 

[babs7262]

The only concern I have is with this Double Dice. As alot of you know I have been trying to win the JP for over 2 months now. I started playing when the JP was at $4500. It is now at $7600. I literally have been playing this slot every single day for months. Last time I had them check (which was like way over a month ago) I was at over 3000 spins. THat was after 8 days, Im at about 60 days so you can imagine how many spins Ive played by now

Now mind you, Im not talking about not winning the JP, I am a little stunned that I havnt even gotten 3 3D's in a row on ANY line. I dont get it. THe first line pays $100 2nd $200, 3rd $300, 4th $400 5th JP line. THere have been times when I got the $80 diamonds 3 times in one day ($240) but yet I havnt even hit the $100 3D's the whole 2 months in a row.

Please dont tell me the odds because I still dont see how its possible. Ive been playing there enough to get 5 symbols in SuperSuits, 5 butterflies on Fortune Falls and 5 Squirells on Squirrell Pike and Ive gotten 4 symbols in Super Suits on a few occasions. I have even gotten 5 aces on Video Poker but not once have I gotten even the $100 line when I play that the most

Again, Enzo really has no control of the odds because he runs the casino, doesnt own it, so dont think Im mad. Im not even mad that I havnt gotten the 3D's, as I said, Im more stunned because the game has treated me well so I cant complain. I just wanna know why this hasnt happened to me yet

 

[pacers31]

LaHutti, I do realize and understand that it is a business. It is nice that there is a "fun chat" feature, but if I want fun chat, I certainly can find it without paying for it. I know you're just pointing out the obvious, that it is business, but the swings are so profound that I personally will not play the slots at all. Until I see some positive results from these guys, I will be curtailing my deposits here. After all, the best way to get the attention of business is to affect their business. I will vote "not as much" on 3D for now. Great service is virtuous, but it does nothing for the balance sheet.

 

[3Dice]

The only concern I have is with this Double Dice. As alot of you know I have been trying to win the JP for over 2 months now. I started playing when the JP was at $4500. It is now at $7600. I literally have been playing this slot every single day for months. Last time I had them check (which was like way over a month ago) I was at over 3000 spins. THat was after 8 days, Im at about 60 days so you can imagine how many spins Ive played by now

Hi Babs,

You are now at 12633 spins on the doubledice (all-time).

Now mind you, Im not talking about not winning the JP, I am a little stunned that I havnt even gotten 3 3D's in a row on ANY line. I dont get it. THe first line pays $100 2nd $200, 3rd $300, 4th $400 5th JP line. THere have been times when I got the $80 diamonds 3 times in one day ($240) but yet I havnt even hit the $100 3D's the whole 2 months in a row. ...... I just wanna know why this hasnt happened to me yet

The odds for hitting three 3D symbols on any winline are approximately 1 in 50.000. (or it will hit on average once in about 4 times the play you've had so far). Only one in 5 of those will be the big jackpot hit. The $100-$400 wins for the first four paylines may seem very low, but it is of course because of that that the jackpot is now at $7600 .. when going for 3D's you really want to get them on the 5th payline, as there are other combinations that will get you the $100 range win much more frequently than 3D's on line 1 to 4.

I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for you babs - just thought it would help to know the numbers.

Good Luck !

Enzo

 

[pacers31]

Damn! With those odds Babs it's a good thing it is a low cost game to play. Seems like a waste of time IMO, but I hope you hit it.

 

[anniemac]

OMG!!! I just did the math on the amount needed to win the jackpot!!

If I was Enzo, I am not sure I would have told that. I would have just left it at "random spins" and let it go.

I know that these casinos are in the business of making money, I get that. However, happy players are frequent depositors. Just throw us a bone every now and then. If I ever won a little bit, I would deposit again. But my history has been one withdrawal and it was mostly my first deposit I withdrew because I was losing so bad that I got disgusted. I usually deposit $50 per month just because certainly not because I think I am going to win.

Not bashing 3Dice only. I've got several others on my list that will be seeing less of my money.

 

[me_and_ed]

Sometimes I get the feeling, that some of the players at 3Dice forget, that it's a business, just like all the other casinos out there.
They just chose to do it differently, with the fun chat room, and the free tournament thing (That has to be paid for, by the way....by the depositing players), and all the friendly support people (Who are all getting paid by the way ... by the depositing players), all to make you forget, that it's cold business, and sofar it seems, that it's been working pretty well, and nothing wrong with good business, in my opinion
This, and the fact that you'll see some pretty big wins (That has to be paid for by the way ....by all the losing players), even though they are rare, and the fact that behind the whole thing, is money people, who expect to see their investments grow (now, where would that money come from ?), will leave a lot of losers behind (losing players that is....not calling names here ).
I'm not one to give advice, but please don't forget, that it IS cold business in the end.
Just my 2 cents on that.

I have been playing online since 1997, I have seen a lot of places come and go, and lots of good and way more bad, I do understand this is a business and I am sure Enzo knows that as well, we have had much dialogue, getting back to the business thing, sometimes I only would like a bit of value, I dont always need to win and cashout, its gambling, I am always prepared to lose what I deposit, just not in 5 mins on non high roller bets. This is not a 3Dice bash session, I would never do that, I just wanted to hear if others shared the same opinion.

 

[tim5ny]

You've been up as well as down, and are now still at the point where one lucky spin can easily put you ahead again.

Enzo speaks the truth here! I can attest that one spin at 3Dice can change everything.


It's just.."Right place at right time!".......but I've been in your shoes many times Ed and Me! I get pissed off too! Ask Ellen! I think she hates me at the moment! I'm trying to do damage control on this flub-up!!

 

[me_and_ed]

Enzo speaks the truth here! I can attest that one spin at 3Dice can change everything.


It's just.."Right place at right time!".......but I've been in your shoes many times Ed and Me! I get pissed off too! Ask Ellen! I think she hates me at the moment! I'm trying to do damage control on this flub-up!!

I hear you, this is not a knee jerk reaction to any one session, this is a built up observation, I am a fairly decent depositor there and have had lots of sessions. I have said this to Enzo, its like breaking up with a bad girlfriend your still in love with, you hate to but have to for your own good.

 

[PNWGirl38]

I have been a long time supporter of 3Dice so this thread may piss a few people off including Enzo. I have had it with the swings, there is no in between here with this place, most of the time it is a money sucking vortex, this really pains me because the casino has by far the best service out there, instant payments and at least some form of personal service, however there needs to be some more wins, have we ever seen verified payout reports? I am not a sour grapes player but would like some other input here, are your swings as drastic as mine, I find 3Dice swings to be more extreme than any other software provider I play at.

I've read the posts in this thread. I might have missed it, if so I apologize.

me_and_ed brought up a question that I would like to the know the answer to.

Are there any verified payout reports available, Enzo?

 

[ugaboga]

Hi Enzo,

I haven't played at 3Dice for maybe 4 or so months, but did play often before then. I didn't think I did too well either, but I was wondering if you could also email me the stats? (out of interest)

If yes, I'll pm you the account number.

 

[1819]

not too mobile following surgery so decided to spin for a few hours at 3dice today...played that shamrock horseshoe game and not kidding when i tell you i went over a thousand spins with no feature. played the blue butterflies and got slaughtered. lost my a*s for a good 4 or 5 hours then BAM! hit 576x my bet on the sun game. 4 suns plus a bunch of other junk. went back to shamrocks and hit a feature that retriggerd 3 times and payed over 100x my bet. switched to vp and within a half hour had all my money back and about 6x my deposit. i was feeling very abused today but i dont mind the losing streaks if there is a possiblity of a monster hit. at 3dice there always is that possibility which makes it fun for me. the vp has been hot for me for months now. dont know what it is but have been hitting all top payouts(aside from royals) on a regular basis. the choices are limited and i dont understand any of the bonus's but i have been playing there exclusively. hope this ramble came out ok. i have been eating percocets like m&m's today.

 

[Nifty29]

Well, oddly enough I think 3Dice is one of the few places I dont mind losing at...they tick every box insofar as service, software and payouts are concerned.

Im not having a good run on Video Poker of late, but Im hoping that will change .. ENZO!!!!

Ive learned from my years of playing that variance is something to consider before you play any slot machine. If you dont have a reasonable bankroll, or you want to play a long time on a small deposit, then it is worth considering other games (or colors only on the new 3Dice game).

One other thing I have learned is that long losing streaks WILL happen...but if you choose to go the high variance route you will also have some big hits but they will be few and far between (but probably worth the wait in most cases).

Wishing a change of luck to those having a bad run

 

[silcnlayc]

I have played the tournies for quite a while but it got boring since it was for such a few dollars and no chance of winning (for me that is) so I quit and decided to give it a shot at depositing...well, sad to say it got me twice and you know what the say...if you go back for the third sucker punch...

But I must admit, the match bonus was nice...

Good luck to all that continue the patronage of 3 Dice...very nice people, great match bonus....but I am all for enjoying my donations wherever I go for more than a few minutes so I will have to pass on 3Dice for quite a while once again...

 

[catrina m]

when going for 3D's you really want to get them on the 5th payline

Enzo

I got 2 3D symbols on the 5th payline one day but had it on autoplay and it changed before I could capture a screenshot that sucked!

 

[Fleur-De-Lis]

i dont mind the losing streaks if there is a possiblity of a monster hit. at 3dice there always is that possibility which makes it fun for me.

With all due respect, I'd say that 'monster hits' rather belong to those casinos that, unlike 3D (till recently my favourite one), offer Random Jackpots. No?

 

[mysticjoz]

Well, I have to jump in on this one since I brought it up many, many months back. Even then I heard, "Unfortunately it's just a run of Bad Luck" and i am still hearing the same thing this day.

The most I have cashed out as of recent was $20 to my QT account because every single game was so tight and I was not seeing anything at all. YET AGAIN. No free spin rounds on ANY SLOT last night.

IMHO .. this is not just UP and DOWN "swings"... I have not had a good hit (and by "good hit" I mean anywhere from $200 up ACCUMULATED of course, so I am not being greedy at all about this) For SO many months I can't even count them! About 1-2 weeks ago I had my balance up to $180.00 and just wanted to reach the $200 mark to pay the "overnight" fee... it went down, down, down and that was low rolling!

I find it very odd that when they first came to the scene almost everyone here was hitting!! The Winners Screenshot Thread was filled with screenies from almost everyone and if it was not in there it was mentioned in a thread somewhere.
From October to December we were seeing "someone won ____ in real money" come across chat screen all the time. AT LEAST a couple times a day.
(I have not been into chat for a few weeks) but I do know that the "red print that tells us "someone won ________ in real money" has decreased so dramatically I think I have seen it once a month in the past 3 or 4 months, IF THAT!! I don't understand how SO MANY of us can have such LONG stretches of "a run of bad luck!" and to be honest. The "bonuses" we used to get tossed at us every once in a while.. well those don't seem to exist anymore. at least for me they don't. (when I lost that $180.00 I got a $10 bonus.)
The No wagering requirement bonuses are no longer also.
Yes, it's fun, yes they have free tourneys and "the best customer support around" ... but I know I am starting to get very impatient even trying to win a tourney.

Babs.. I hope you win the 3D in a row. I myself haven't seen 3D's EVER. And in tourneys... there is always 1 person who hits that. and that's it tourney over!

(oh, and still no word from Enzo yet...

 

[1819]

With all due respect, I'd say that 'monster hits' rather belong to those casinos that, unlike 3D (till recently my favourite one), offer Random Jackpots. No?

not really. "monster hits" maybe 400x, 800x, 1200x your bet are alot more frequent than a random jackpot. just on thet butterfly game i have hit the 1600x twice and the lower ones a few times. on vp i have hit 4 dueces, on deuces wild, at least a dozen times. 4 deuces w/ace on bonus deuces wild, and 5 of a kind on joker poker more than a few times. not one random jackpot ever. i'd rather have the bigger amount x bet than a fixed amount. what good is a 2 thousand dollar random jackpot if you are betting 20 bucks a spin?

 

[Fleur-De-Lis]

Thanks for your input, 1819!
I guess I saw it too straightforward and may be personal - I lost way too much, and the only hope for me to recover is to hit one of those 32red jackpots Even 1600 times max bet on 3Dice won't help I am too far gone I am afraid...

 

[1819]

Thanks for your input, 1819!
I guess I saw it too straightforward and may be personal - I lost way too much, and the only hope for me to recover is to hit one of those 32red jackpots Even 1600 times max bet on 3Dice won't help I am too far gone I am afraid...

lol. i too am way behind and will never show a profit but that is not why i play. like i said i dont mind getting beat up as long as i can hit back once in a while. the reason i only play 3d anymore is at least i know some good hits will come. i enjoy seeing how long i can play on a deposit. very, very rare to cashout unless it is an exceptional run. except for t.i.v.(before they went south) 3d is literally the only place i have cashed out from. maybe one or two from inet but that place has become a disaster. gaming as entertainment is supposed to be fun and the other places have become no fun. 3d is great but they will have to get some more games soon or i will quickly become bored. i have way too many b&m choices near by to sit in front of a computer. hope your gaming turns around for ya.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Posting to keep active on this site

3Dice slots are higher variance than most, and they can generate some truly spectacular, if rare, payouts.

Greetings, I got a few emails saying I haven't visited in a while and requesting a post, so I thought I would respond to this interesting statement.

Recently I have been doing the programming for some slot machines for a Nevada based slot machine company. They request two things when I do the programming. One of the things is called the RTP, the "Return to Player" -- this means that over the long run, what fraction of each $1 invested will be returned to the player. The RTP of the slots I have been making is under 90%, which is pretty tough on the players. The other thing they request is the variance.

The RTP has to be separated from the variance when designing a game. A variance of 0 on a game with RTP = 90% would mean that on each pull of the handle, with a $1 wager, the player won 90 cents (lost 10 cents). Period. That would not be much fun, but is essentially an equivalent form of the game from the casino's perspective.

Most people when they get a paycheck, expect to earn $x dollars, with 0 variance. If you told someone they would get paid an average of $1000 per week, over the long run, but on some weeks they might earn $0, and some weeks they might get paid $2000, and they never knew which would happen, well, that would make it hard to pay the bills. So a variance of 0 is good when it comes to income and bad when it comes to enjoying a casino experience.

When someone speaks of high variance slots, it is really not the key point. The key point is "what is the RTP?" Slots that return 92% or more are good slots. Slots that return 96% or more are great slots. Slots that return under 88% suck. That's the theoretical RTP built into them by the programmer, not the individual's experience.

As for variance, I've built slots that are high variance and low variance. They pay the same in the long run, but some players like to go for the few but huge wins, others like to play games that stress more frequent lower payouts. In either case, the player loses. In the first case, the variance is higher.

So, in practical terms, one can compute these two numbers for ANY casino game (slots, table games, etc.): the RTP and the Variance. The RTP is the actual amount the casino is winning from you when you play the game. The Variance describes the ride you go on while the casino takes your money.

If I wanted an answer, and a casino rep was willing to come forward, the real question is the RTP, not the variance. You're going to lose at the rate determined by the RTP. That's the bottom line.

Hope this helps clarify the matter,

--Eliot

 

[Rusty]

Thanks for that Eliot but your post just touches upon the important questions for me which are;

Do you calculate the payout% based on every possible reel combination (eg 5 reel slot 20 symbols each reel 3.2 million combinations) and adjust the paytable accordingly or do you randomize a sequence of all combinations and then playback this sequence or do you use an algorithm that dynamically weights the symbols to achieve the desired RTP?

Perhaps you use another method but all Three of the above methods could be described as random but only one would meet a players expectations of how an online slot should function.

In much the same way a slot can have natural variance dictated only by the paytable and more importantly expected Feature returns but I would expect your clients would want a greater level of control to maximise the "rollercoaster" and thus ask for variance to be "programmed in."
Would this be a correct assumption because it certainly would tie in with my experience of online slots.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Thanks for that Eliot but your post just touches upon the important questions for me which are;

Do you calculate the payout% based on every possible reel combination (eg 5 reel slot 20 symbols each reel 3.2 million combinations) and adjust the paytable accordingly

The way traditional slots are analyzed is by something called a PAR sheet -- That stands for Paytable and Reel Strips. Every possible outcome is analyzed in a spread sheet analysis. Every possibility is enumerated and the paytable is adjusted via this enumeration to give exactly the RTP and variance the client wants. Often this is verified using a "robot" that plays (in my programming) at least 100 million simulated rounds to double check.

Bingo slots are not so easy. I've done a lot of those. But Bingo is too big of a game to analyze combinatorially (just think of the formula combin(75,24) -- that's the size of the computation of one cycle).

For slots, the RTP and variance are not dynamically adjusted based on the player, the player's previous results, or any other interaction with the player and the slot. The casino makes its money over millions of rounds of these games being played, and for the casino the RTP is all that matters. A good or bad week for a player is entirely under the radar of the average casino's bookkeeping.

Hope this helps,

Eliot

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Another comment

I would expect your clients would want a greater level of control to maximise the "rollercoaster" and thus ask for variance to be "programmed in." Would this be a correct assumption because it certainly would tie in with my experience of online slots.

I would like to correct a misconception that seems to be hinted at by this statement. Variance is not a thing that happens or doesn't happen. That seems to be how it is used here a lot. "You just experienced bad variance," is a common phrase I often read here.

In truth, variance is a single number, just like RTP is a single number. If you think of a bell curve (why not draw one just so you can follow this) then the RTP corresponds to the high point of the curve. The square root of the variance corresponds to the distance between the high point of the curve and the point at which it turns from being concave down (an upside down bowl) to being concave up (a rightside up bowl). High variance just means this distance is greater, low variance means this distance is shorter. That's all.

Variance means nothing more than this: a distance between two points with a suitable metric. To say that one is "experiencing bad variance" is an expression that is often used rhetorically, but it is without meaning.

Best regards,

Eliot

 

[USA2112]

@Eliot Jacobson

Correct me if I'm wrong but basically your saying that the difference between playing a low variance machine and a high variance machine is notthing more than the amount of times the machine will payout within an alloted amount of time, the higher variance machine paying less times with higher payout wins and the lower variance machine paying more times with lower payout wins. Then if both machines were to have the same RTP of 92% the overall payout of the two machines is the same and has nothing to do with any given time schedule or amount of pulls that determans when the machine will pay. Correct?

Reason I ask is it would make sense then to play the high variance machine due to the possibilities of bigger payouts even though there's fewer wins. I find myself doing this more often then not because when I play low variance machines compared to high variance machines, the low variance just seems to go up and down and the high variance I can get further ahead "WIN MORE" per amount invested and time played. Whether I cash out is determaned by how much I win.

 

[bb28]

Whew.......this thread is making my blonde head spin.
I'll be the first to admit that I don't quite understand it all but I have somewhat of a grasp on it.

On a serious note.....thank you Eliot for coming on and addressing this.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Yes....

...your saying that the difference between playing a low variance machine and a high variance machine is notthing more than the amount of times the machine will payout within an alloted amount of time, the higher variance machine paying less times with higher payout wins and the lower variance machine paying more times with lower payout wins.

Bingo. But, this is not for a single player for a single session, this is the long term average over millions of plays. Any individual can have quite a different experience. For example, the person who buys the winning lottery ticket and the person who buys a losing ticket have very different experiences of the same game, with the same RTP and variance.

Then if both machines were to have the same RTP of 92% the overall payout of the two machines is the same and has nothing to do with any given time schedule or amount of pulls that determans when the machine will pay.

Yes, this is correct. Two machines with the same RTP will payout the same amout, over a sufficiently large number of pulls.

Reason I ask is it would make sense then to play the high variance machine due to the possibilities of bigger payouts even though there's fewer wins.

Some people like high variance, some low variance. This is simply a matter of taste in your games.

As an easy example, think of Roulette. Every bet is exactly the same in Roulette, they all pay back at an RTP of 36/38 = 94.74%. Now, a player who plays $38 on Red-7 and a player who plays $38 by placing $1 on each of the 38 squares have the same RTP (yes they do!!!), they each stand to lose $2 on average over the long run. The first player will either lose $38 or win $1330(straight up pays 35-to-1). The second will always lose $2. In the long run it's the same. Which seems more fun to you?

Most people play somewhere in between these two strategies, peppering the board with wagers in some haphazard fashion. The way their wagers fall is a statement about the variance they enjoy, it has nothing to do with their RTP. They stand to lose, on average, about 5.26% of all money wagered, no matter how it falls on the table. Thus Roulette is the ultimate player's game -- choose your variance, from full on playing one number straight up, to the risk free person who is playing $1 on each square. It is the same. When you understand this, that's when you'll really see why casinos don't care about variance, they only care about RTP.

So, the question is, what's the RTP? If I was a player (I am not), that would be the only question I would ask. Beyond that, it becomes just a question of style -- how do I enjoy losing the money I am predicted to lose?

This post may lead to more questions, forgive me if I rest on this thread and leave on a note of encouragement with no further responses.

Play for fun, find the variance that is fun for you, and play high RTP games so that your money lasts.

 

[USA2112]

Thanks for the info. For me I like high variance slot machines I seem to win more. I'll chalk it up as luck...

 

[me_and_ed]

As promised Enzo sent my payout percentages, I had a 700x on Moolah hence the 106%. Doesnt look bad on paper, doesnt feel as good in real life.



DoubleDice 1101 bets 97.26%
Industria 1415 bets 74.94%
FortuneFalls 7448 bets 87.92%
HappyValley 16131 spins 93.15%
MedievalMoolah 6129 bets 106.88%
Poker_new 1294 bets 76.17%
SquirrelPike 18510 spins 99.78%
SuperSuits 22780 bets 101.13%
Tutankhamon 21710 spins 86.04%

 

[lauram]

Yep my blonde head is spinning with you. Am i the only one that just deposits
and SPINS. Slot player here so i always take it that it is just like with cards the luck of the draw. Even though i think at times this game owes me, give me a good hit. But must rmbr that game doesnt know that, has no feelings and more or less couldnt give a darn if you hit something or not.

 

[lovetogamble]

Me Too

Am i the only one that just deposits
and SPINS.

Nope....me too. ....and just hope for the best!

 

[Fleur-De-Lis]

Nope....me too. ....and just hope for the best!

I personally no longer hope. 15K gone (thanks to Enzo for stats provided)... no chance to recover even half, ever :sob:

 

[Rusty]

I would like to correct a misconception that seems to be hinted at by this statement. Variance is not a thing that happens or doesn't happen. That seems to be how it is used here a lot. "You just experienced bad variance," is a common phrase I often read here.

In truth, variance is a single number, just like RTP is a single number. If you think of a bell curve (why not draw one just so you can follow this) then the RTP corresponds to the high point of the curve. The square root of the variance corresponds to the distance between the high point of the curve and the point at which it turns from being concave down (an upside down bowl) to being concave up (a rightside up bowl). High variance just means this distance is greater, low variance means this distance is shorter. That's all.

Variance means nothing more than this: a distance between two points with a suitable metric. To say that one is "experiencing bad variance" is an expression that is often used rhetorically, but it is without meaning.

Best regards,

Eliot

In your first reply you are legitimising the slots you program by stating they are indeed random and each spin is independent of previous results (I am reading between the lines).
That is very much what a slot player would want.

I do not know which software providers you have worked for or which slots you have helped develop but there are several reasons why I do not believe MG or RTG or any other main software providers slots work in this way.

Firstly there is the problem of slots playing differnetly when a bonus taken.
In my experience the higher the bonus and WR the more likely I am to hit a good win early in the session and as If I am doing well as I approach the WR payout will fall away to very unlikely levels <50% and quite often 30%.
This occurs time and again so I find it impossible to put down to coincidence.

There is also the problem of "dissapearing symbols" where especially after a good payout the Wild and/or scatter symbols will go AWOL.
This is not a matter of perception but fact.

Another issue would be that the reels are weighted (although this does not mean the game is not fair in itself) and though I accept this as a shortcut in some games it becomes a serious issue when this weighting is obviously dynamic in other games.

There is also the basic problem of slot returns being nowhere close to that advertised.
Over millions of spins on various software my average returns would be around 80% a long way short of the 90+% claimed.

As regards variance I thank you for your eloquent and informative post.

I think you understand perfectly well what I am hinting at.
Variance does not have to be a natural product.
For a very basic eg;
If 20% of a slots total payout is made up from a bonus round that 20% can be dished out in anyway a programmer sees fit.

Infact there endless ways to manipulate variance just as there are payout%.

Of course those arguments could be disregarded if the games were seen to operate in way you describe.
Unfortunately that is not my experience and without getting my hands on the code that is all I have to go on.

It is good of you to go into such detail to explain how the slots you work on operate and I appreciate that.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

As promised Enzo sent my payout percentages, I had a 700x on Moolah hence the 106%. Doesnt look bad on paper, doesnt feel as good in real life.



DoubleDice 1101 bets 97.26%
Industria 1415 bets 74.94%
FortuneFalls 7448 bets 87.92%
HappyValley 16131 spins 93.15%
MedievalMoolah 6129 bets 106.88%
Poker_new 1294 bets 76.17%
SquirrelPike 18510 spins 99.78%
SuperSuits 22780 bets 101.13%
Tutankhamon 21710 spins 86.04%

According to my calculations, this gives an overall RTP of 94.7262% based on a total of 96518 spins.

It takes many more spins than 96518 to accurately determine slot RTP's, but based on this limited sample, the slots at 3Dice seem to be quite good from the consumer side.

 

[me_and_ed]

According to my calculations, this gives an overall RTP of 94.7262% based on a total of 96518 spins.

It takes many more spins than 96518 to accurately determine slot RTP's, but based on this limited sample, the slots at 3Dice seem to be quite good from the consumer side.

Yes, as I said it looks good on paper, the jist of my rant here is that most of these percentages have been from a few decent hits, its the in between time that really kills, I can have a $1000 win from one session and go for a month or two and have virtually no wins, saying that I am a thrill junky, the thrill of knowing that a large hit can happen keeps me playing here, it does get very frustrating over the long haul.

 

[pacers31]

Just got a free $50 no WR bonus from 3D along with the scratch card. I emailed them to thank them for the bonus, it was a nice gesture. The bonus however only lasted 4 and a half minutes on 7s wild VP at $1.25 spin. The scratch card gave me two unhappy faces, so I don't quite get how this is a bonus at all. Seems ever since the new bonus system was implemented at 3D I don't enjoy playing there as much. Seems unless you have a huge bankroll you are not going to win there at all. I guess I'm not one who enjoys the high variance thing. Sorry Enzo, but I can't justify this kind of investment even for entertainment purposes. I usually deposit $50 at a time and it is gone in five minutes (usually). $10 a minute for entertainment is too rich for me!!

 

[kakata]

same story here with a 25 scrath card.....unhappy faces......great bonus
Theyr faces were not so unhappy when we deposited....

 

[RedKaos]

2 happy dollars for me 25 10x WR
Cashed out 140 after the wagering requirements

 

[pacers31]

Good for you Red! I still don't consider this a bonus though!

 

[me_and_ed]

Seems like the norm. Hasnt taken long to go from Silver**** to Silver**, 3 weeks.

 

[Elizabeth]

I hit the jackpot on double dice slot, during a tournament! The graphics when you hit are amazing and fun to watch. But it made me physically ill to hit it for a $10.00 prize. I must agree here, 3Dice slots are so frustrating, and nerve-racking. You can deposit $100.00 and KNOW if you don't hit quickly, it will be gone in about 20 minutes..I've timed it...
How does everyone feel about the new bonus system? I do not care for it.