Payout Percentages - one for the reps!

Rhyzz

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Location
United Kingdom
Ok, I'm not sure if this is something that the reps will be particularly thrilled about posting but I have noticed that alot of the bigger name casinos quite happily publish their percentage payout figures, whether it be individual or across the board.

What I want to know is - what are everyones (casinos) and what are the mechanics behind them? The reason I ask is that I as well as everybody want to know that we're getting the best possible value for money - we are effectively paying for entertainment afterall.

These figures obviously change, so reps - feel free to post figures for as far back as December or so (4 months should be long enough?) and how do you calculate these? Who are you licensed by and who does the auditing?

I may be the only one here who thinks it would be nice to compile a small DB on this information, perhaps something CM could keep track of and publish on the site - I don't know.

I know there are probably sites out there that keep track of these figures, but I'd like to hear it from the horses mouth and have an explanation of how they work.

EXAMPLE - Intercasino recently told me about a payout % that simply shocked me - it was frighteningly low. However, they base theirs on a player basis and over 50,000+ hands. Other casinos I have consulted say that they base theirs on over 1,000,000+ games played over the month and take an average per game and then take the average of those percentages, which I think is a much better system since it effectively gives the smaller players chance to win bigger money.

See what I mean or do I need to be clearer?
 
Quick response, won't go into too much detail but not afraid to answer.

From Rival's point of view it would be nice to have the payout percentages to be posted but it is a little more complex than it looks. Our options to do so would be to self publish, start a separate company just for auditing, or go with a 3rd party company. If we self publish does that really do anybody any justice? Perhaps it is a start but people might be calling for something else. If we start another company just for this were are nearly in the same boat which is can people trust these stats with our own interests in mind. Next is using a 3rd party company which may have stronger connections to other software or gaming companies. Now are these companies themselves fully trustable and would Rival put it's own reputation in the hands of someone else? There is a conflict of interest in all 3 options and I can speak for myself at the moment where it was always considered at the start but there are issues for each option.

If you do go to a game using Rival and click on the help tab on the bottom left you will get information about most of the games with the payout percentage I believe rounded to the nearest whole number (96.1774 would be listed as 96%).

I think one of 2 things could happen or should happen with the industry. As governments start to regulate they would want auditing enforced and published much like what you get when you to go Vegas. If that doesn't happen another alternative would be to have some standardization for players to get copies of their bet and hand histories exported to a text file so the data could be compiled by a program. This program would store the data in a central data base to add up the results and provide statistical analysis on the data. Something like x# of hands recorded and the actual results are 99.99% believed to be accurate to the theoretical results. At the moment poker players have these tools available in the form of pokertracker and pokeroffice and this is how certain poker companies were proven to be "cheating" just from the data and analysis alone. Again something like this takes time and money and people have to wonder about affiliations as well.

John
 
Quick response, won't go into too much detail but not afraid to answer.

From Rival's point of view it would be nice to have the payout percentages to be posted but it is a little more complex than it looks. Our options to do so would be to self publish, start a separate company just for auditing, or go with a 3rd party company. If we self publish does that really do anybody any justice? Perhaps it is a start but people might be calling for something else. If we start another company just for this were are nearly in the same boat which is can people trust these stats with our own interests in mind. Next is using a 3rd party company which may have stronger connections to other software or gaming companies. Now are these companies themselves fully trustable and would Rival put it's own reputation in the hands of someone else? There is a conflict of interest in all 3 options and I can speak for myself at the moment where it was always considered at the start but there are issues for each option.

If you do go to a game using Rival and click on the help tab on the bottom left you will get information about most of the games with the payout percentage I believe rounded to the nearest whole number (96.1774 would be listed as 96%).

I think one of 2 things could happen or should happen with the industry. As governments start to regulate they would want auditing enforced and published much like what you get when you to go Vegas. If that doesn't happen another alternative would be to have some standardization for players to get copies of their bet and hand histories exported to a text file so the data could be compiled by a program. This program would store the data in a central data base to add up the results and provide statistical analysis on the data. Something like x# of hands recorded and the actual results are 99.99% believed to be accurate to the theoretical results. At the moment poker players have these tools available in the form of pokertracker and pokeroffice and this is how certain poker companies were proven to be "cheating" just from the data and analysis alone. Again something like this takes time and money and people have to wonder about affiliations as well.

John
I think you should hire the internal and external auditors of Bear Stearns;):p;)
 
Ok, I'm not sure if this is something that the reps will be particularly thrilled about posting but I have noticed that alot of the bigger name casinos quite happily publish their percentage payout figures, whether it be individual or across the board.

What I want to know is - what are everyones (casinos) and what are the mechanics behind them? The reason I ask is that I as well as everybody want to know that we're getting the best possible value for money - we are effectively paying for entertainment afterall.

These figures obviously change, so reps - feel free to post figures for as far back as December or so (4 months should be long enough?) and how do you calculate these? Who are you licensed by and who does the auditing?

I may be the only one here who thinks it would be nice to compile a small DB on this information, perhaps something CM could keep track of and publish on the site - I don't know.

I know there are probably sites out there that keep track of these figures, but I'd like to hear it from the horses mouth and have an explanation of how they work.

EXAMPLE - Intercasino recently told me about a payout % that simply shocked me - it was frighteningly low. However, they base theirs on a player basis and over 50,000+ hands. Other casinos I have consulted say that they base theirs on over 1,000,000+ games played over the month and take an average per game and then take the average of those percentages, which I think is a much better system since it effectively gives the smaller players chance to win bigger money.

See what I mean or do I need to be clearer?

Re Intercasino (man do i miss that place), do you mean their payout % was low or their take was low? I think you mean their take which if so doesnt surprise me. I always thought their software was very fair (notwithstanding their streaky blackjack :)) and on top of that they gave VERY generous bonuses.

I am almost ashamed to say how far up i was at Intercasino (note i said almost)
 
It is not just Intercasino's streaky Blackjack as I am approaching a half million hands played online at multiple software platforms so I kinda got alot of data. The BJ software is correlated. Does not mean you can not win but besides me being an idiot for playing it, it means something. I do not give a damn what anybody says, people lie,numbers do not! At least John shoots straight,can not be said for many and their agendas. Regulation will improve some issues but not a whole lot. The real estate industry is regulated so what?
 
It is not just Intercasino's streaky Blackjack as I am approaching a half million hands played online at multiple software platforms so I kinda got alot of data. The BJ software is correlated. Does not mean you can not win but besides me being an idiot for playing it, it means something. I do not give a damn what anybody says, people lie,numbers do not! At least John shoots straight,can not be said for many and their agendas. Regulation will improve some issues but not a whole lot. The real estate industry is regulated so what?

Nash, I understand what you are saying re their black jack. i have heard many big bj players say the same thing. I was a low roller and played bj and vp at a low level and did very well but that was as a low roller.

PS- I agree, John is a straight shooter and his candor is much appreciated.
 
So no one trusts PWC's reports after Microgaming has used them for years now ??? :rolleyes::lolup::lolup::rolleyes:

PWC pulled out quite awhile ago. I think it was around the time the NETeller 2 were arrested... Or maybe it was when the UIGEA was passed. Do a search in the Inductry section... I think eCogra is in charge of seeing that the casinos are playing fair?
 
PWC pulled out quite awhile ago. I think it was around the time the NETeller 2 were arrested... Or maybe it was when the UIGEA was passed. Do a search in the Inductry section... I think eCogra is in charge of seeing that the casinos are playing fair?

Oh yea I know Mousey,,, that's why I put in those "sarcastic" icon's there....I personally think the reports were always a joke anyway...they never matched up to my stats...I believe the last report I saw from them on one of the MG sites was back on 06 IIRC...
 
quick reply before I head out the door for an hour or 2. Regarding PWC I believe they are legit, if they were not then you would have seen them caught long ago must like the casinobar, english harbour and others who have been caught and proven to not be dealing a fair hand. I still think there must be some group out there that keeps data on these places but personally I would like to see the casino industry follow the poker industry a little better. Personally I believe the PWC payouts but I don't know if they deal exclusively with Microgaming and if that is the case you have to wonder about the questions I mentioned before about regulation and self regulation.

John
 
Arthur Anderson was legit also, just ask the ex-employees,shareholders,etc., of Enron! Oh yeah, ask Skilling too since Lay has passed on!
 
Re Intercasino (man do i miss that place), do you mean their payout % was low or their take was low? I think you mean their take which if so doesnt surprise me. I always thought their software was very fair (notwithstanding their streaky blackjack :)) and on top of that they gave VERY generous bonuses.

I am almost ashamed to say how far up i was at Intercasino (note i said almost)

I'm afraid not - their payout is incredibly low, just 91% hard code on the marvel slots. I simply find it astonishing that a company as big as Inter thinks they can get away with such a disgraceful payout, as I haven't played there since I found this out.

Not sure about their other games, I only really play slots and video poker, but either way....91% when other places are around 97%.....no thanks.
 
I'm afraid not - their payout is incredibly low, just 91% hard code on the marvel slots. I simply find it astonishing that a company as big as Inter thinks they can get away with such a disgraceful payout, as I haven't played there since I found this out.

Not sure about their other games, I only really play slots and video poker, but either way....91% when other places are around 97%.....no thanks.

Yes. 91% for online slots is terrible. Thats about what Atlantic City .25 slots average and they are a rip.

I think 96-97% is fair for online and 94-95% for B&Ms. I certainly didnt make most of my Intercasino money on their slots. I always liked their VP have you played theirs?
 
Casino %s

Hi folks,

The real information should be held by a trusted Gaming Commission i.e. Malta, who do independant audited figures of all the games for their licensed casinos.

If you have an issue go straight to the Gaming commsion for figures - they generally audit every few months or so.

We used PWC at a previous casino for audited figures and they were very good in my opinion in giving accurate results. In fact they were extremely thougher in their questioning of me.

Best regards and Happy Easter,

Dazzla
 
It is not just Intercasino's streaky Blackjack as I am approaching a half million hands played online at multiple software platforms so I kinda got alot of data. The BJ software is correlated. Does not mean you can not win but besides me being an idiot for playing it, it means something. I do not give a damn what anybody says, people lie,numbers do not! At least John shoots straight,can not be said for many and their agendas. Regulation will improve some issues but not a whole lot. The real estate industry is regulated so what?

500,000 hands at an average bet size of say $5, and say you play sort of OK around a 1% disadvantage

So you've lost an expected $25,000 playing online blackjack?

Wow

Did you get good entertainment value? I think personally I'd rather take the 5 trips to Tahiti or buy a new car with that kind of money. Isn't disposable income great.
 
500,000 hands at an average bet size of say $5, and say you play sort of OK around a 1% disadvantage

So you've lost an expected $25,000 playing online blackjack?

Wow

Did you get good entertainment value? I think personally I'd rather take the 5 trips to Tahiti or buy a new car with that kind of money. Isn't disposable income great.
Thanks for the implied advice....I will keep in mind,not!!!:clap::clap::clap:.....iggy time:thumbsup:
 
Gaming Fairness

Greetings

I suppose I should chime in on this thread, mainly because I run a company that audits online Internet casinos for payouts and fairness.

Random number generators are an enigma. By definition, they are generated by a computer program, so cannot really be random. Thus they are called "pseudo-random." One definition of a pseudo-random number sequence is that it passes every "conceivable" fairness test. There are alternative definitions and much debate about what "random" means. See, for example,
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.

My father designed a truely random, random number generator. He sampled ambient white noise from electromagnetic sources. Unfortunately, the Army had previously patented this idea. Such a RNG would be just the thing for online casinos and all other experiments that need true random number generation. But, instead, we use mainly Math.random(), rand(), and similar pseudo random generators.

How does one test for fairness? Because there is insufficient time to do every conceivable fairness test on a game, the auditor must select a few very telling tests that will likely detect errors if they exist. This together with checking that the RTP (return to player) is near the theoretically predicted value, are usually enough to be confident, and to issue a certification.

One standard method is to sample subsets of the random number sequence for a game, and check that the subsets also pass the tests. For example, I might sample the subset of all cards the player draws when he has a hard 16 in blackjack and check that these cards are evenly distributed. That's just one test. Or, I might sample cards dealt when the player splits Aces, to make sure the player gets his fair share of T's. By not telling the client in advance about these subsets, the tests gain power.

As far as the RTP (return to player) for games, here is a recent example. For the casino xxx.com, the total number of hands played at blackjack for a recent month was about 1,680,000 hands (this covers all players who played there). The casino returned 98.8% at blackjack for the month. I can look at that and say "that looks about right." And when the fairness tests also showed the game is fair, I was very confident. Mind you, not 100% certain (that is never possible), but very confident. It is this confidence that I express when I issue a certification to a casino for a month. 1.7 million hands is enough.

The problem with fairness testing is that one can always argue about the "cracks." There is always something not being tested, and one can always argue for just one more test. One can aruge that sequences can be designed in advance that will pass every conceivable test, but still be unfair (I can't see how to do that, but some do argue this way). So, ultimately, there is no absolute proof of fairness available, just the testimony of experts who will put their reputation on the line to vouch for these games.

This does not touch on NASHVEGAS' point, which is a whole different can of worms. His point, that even if the orginazation is one of the major auditing houses, how can you be sure? He points to Bear Stearns (and Enron before that), companies that were routinely audited. That is a fair warning. My only response is the Mr. Mackey defense from Southpark: "Audits are good."

--Eliot
 
By not telling the client in advance about these subsets, the tests gain power.

How is that exactly,, are you suggesting that if you did tell them upfront about the subsets then they might could alter something before you had the chance to complete your initial testing ???

My only response is the Mr. Mackey defense from Southpark: "Audits are good."

Leave Mr. Mackey out of this, um kay !! "Children...Drugs Are Baaad...um kay" !! :lolup:
 
This does not touch on NASHVEGAS' point, which is a whole different can of worms. His point, that even if the orginazation is one of the major auditing houses, how can you be sure? He points to Bear Stearns (and Enron before that), companies that were routinely audited. That is a fair warning. My only response is the Mr. Mackey defense from Southpark: "Audits are good."

--Eliot
Good post Eliot and certainly do not want get into my main concern with certified independent gaming audits again,lol......However that said I will, just a little, below..... As far as your quote above, I could have kept going with recent well recognized public companies all audited by the merged former Big 8 accounting firms. Off the top of my head, MCI/Worldcom,Adelphia,Healthsouth,Tyco as well as the hundreds of SandL's in the late 80's. Audited firms with the same story,different faces. Imagine the smaller non-household name companies the public rarely hears of!(Is it pandemic??).... As for the above and any implications towards online gaming and the reliability of gaming audits per se, I suppose each individual can draw their own conclusions (assuming it is even a concern)!....As several members have strongly stated numerous times, no one makes us play online as we should all know and have been told it is all about trust.....Biz as usual I suppose,LOL....How is that for being cynical???:D;):D
 
Maybe I'm missing something here. Are you looking for monthly reports of payouts after the fact? Because if you want to know the overall payout percentage, there's not really a way to figure that out for a casino - only game-per-game.

Then, for example, if one casino seems to attract Keno players or promote Keno wildly, their payouts go way down, but their slots may be paying out just fine.

Plus, any given month isn't indicative of very much. You can have a month where two players hit progressive jackpots that are super-high, and then the next month, no one hits the jackpot at all.

I'm not sure that even if we could rely on accurate reporting, it would mean anything.

I remember once reading a press release from an online casino that they'd paid out over 100%. Doesn't mean everyone's a winner - means that their players had better than average luck.

Just my two cents,
James
 
I think InetBet have a payout % of 80% or less, because i played now with $ 262.50 and it was lost in only 20 minutes, certainly without any bigger win, than the 5x bet size ($ 2) and certainly no bonus round/free spins.
That really sucks, but it's always normal on InetBet after some random jackpots was fall, so it was my own error, because i should know this!
 
Same thing on SlotsPlusCasino!

Started with $ 150 and played with $ 1 bets, got my first free spins as my balance was down to $ 10 and hit nothing, not at least 2 time the bet size!
After that my balance was certainly to zero!
That all happens within 15 minutes!

Bodog was always the only one, where i've won very often, but today they've stolen my $ 310 deposit, so where should i play, when i only like RTG Slots? :(
 
Finally i got my money from Bodog back to my moneybookers account, but i was stupid enough to make again a deposit on this casino!

I make it short: $300 deposit, played with $1 bets on Real Series Slots and got only 1 free spins as i was down to $20 and hit only $1.75
I think that should say it all!

Payout% was maybe 20% but surely not more, because this money went away within also in only 30 minutes!
 
Maybe I'm missing something here. Are you looking for monthly reports of payouts after the fact? Because if you want to know the overall payout percentage, there's not really a way to figure that out for a casino - only game-per-game.


How does one (the auditor) determine that ALL of the gaming data has been furnished for auditing on a month by month basis?

To audit cherry picked data will merely produce the result intended. And those results are of course accordingly worthless. Whenever I see audited online gaming reports those reports are ALWAYS qualified to the extent the audited findings are based upon the data supplied by the gaming client.

I would speculate the Enrons of this world gained legitimacy thru such data manipulation and I would further speculate online gaming would hardly baulk at such "cooking the books" opportunities.

..
 

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