Payout Percentages - one for the reps!

[Rhyzz]

Ok, I'm not sure if this is something that the reps will be particularly thrilled about posting but I have noticed that alot of the bigger name casinos quite happily publish their percentage payout figures, whether it be individual or across the board.

What I want to know is - what are everyones (casinos) and what are the mechanics behind them? The reason I ask is that I as well as everybody want to know that we're getting the best possible value for money - we are effectively paying for entertainment afterall.

These figures obviously change, so reps - feel free to post figures for as far back as December or so (4 months should be long enough?) and how do you calculate these? Who are you licensed by and who does the auditing?

I may be the only one here who thinks it would be nice to compile a small DB on this information, perhaps something CM could keep track of and publish on the site - I don't know.

I know there are probably sites out there that keep track of these figures, but I'd like to hear it from the horses mouth and have an explanation of how they work.

EXAMPLE - Intercasino recently told me about a payout % that simply shocked me - it was frighteningly low. However, they base theirs on a player basis and over 50,000+ hands. Other casinos I have consulted say that they base theirs on over 1,000,000+ games played over the month and take an average per game and then take the average of those percentages, which I think is a much better system since it effectively gives the smaller players chance to win bigger money.

See what I mean or do I need to be clearer?

[thisisvegas]

Quick response, won't go into too much detail but not afraid to answer.

From Rival's point of view it would be nice to have the payout percentages to be posted but it is a little more complex than it looks. Our options to do so would be to self publish, start a separate company just for auditing, or go with a 3rd party company. If we self publish does that really do anybody any justice? Perhaps it is a start but people might be calling for something else. If we start another company just for this were are nearly in the same boat which is can people trust these stats with our own interests in mind. Next is using a 3rd party company which may have stronger connections to other software or gaming companies. Now are these companies themselves fully trustable and would Rival put it's own reputation in the hands of someone else? There is a conflict of interest in all 3 options and I can speak for myself at the moment where it was always considered at the start but there are issues for each option.

If you do go to a game using Rival and click on the help tab on the bottom left you will get information about most of the games with the payout percentage I believe rounded to the nearest whole number (96.1774 would be listed as 96%).

I think one of 2 things could happen or should happen with the industry. As governments start to regulate they would want auditing enforced and published much like what you get when you to go Vegas. If that doesn't happen another alternative would be to have some standardization for players to get copies of their bet and hand histories exported to a text file so the data could be compiled by a program. This program would store the data in a central data base to add up the results and provide statistical analysis on the data. Something like x# of hands recorded and the actual results are 99.99% believed to be accurate to the theoretical results. At the moment poker players have these tools available in the form of pokertracker and pokeroffice and this is how certain poker companies were proven to be "cheating" just from the data and analysis alone. Again something like this takes time and money and people have to wonder about affiliations as well.

John

[NASHVEGAS]

Originally Posted by thisisvegas

Quick response, won't go into too much detail but not afraid to answer.

From Rival's point of view it would be nice to have the payout percentages to be posted but it is a little more complex than it looks. Our options to do so would be to self publish, start a separate company just for auditing, or go with a 3rd party company. If we self publish does that really do anybody any justice? Perhaps it is a start but people might be calling for something else. If we start another company just for this were are nearly in the same boat which is can people trust these stats with our own interests in mind. Next is using a 3rd party company which may have stronger connections to other software or gaming companies. Now are these companies themselves fully trustable and would Rival put it's own reputation in the hands of someone else? There is a conflict of interest in all 3 options and I can speak for myself at the moment where it was always considered at the start but there are issues for each option.

If you do go to a game using Rival and click on the help tab on the bottom left you will get information about most of the games with the payout percentage I believe rounded to the nearest whole number (96.1774 would be listed as 96%).

I think one of 2 things could happen or should happen with the industry. As governments start to regulate they would want auditing enforced and published much like what you get when you to go Vegas. If that doesn't happen another alternative would be to have some standardization for players to get copies of their bet and hand histories exported to a text file so the data could be compiled by a program. This program would store the data in a central data base to add up the results and provide statistical analysis on the data. Something like x# of hands recorded and the actual results are 99.99% believed to be accurate to the theoretical results. At the moment poker players have these tools available in the form of pokertracker and pokeroffice and this is how certain poker companies were proven to be "cheating" just from the data and analysis alone. Again something like this takes time and money and people have to wonder about affiliations as well.

John

I think you should hire the internal and external auditors of Bear Stearns

[paul02085]

Originally Posted by Rhyzz

Ok, I'm not sure if this is something that the reps will be particularly thrilled about posting but I have noticed that alot of the bigger name casinos quite happily publish their percentage payout figures, whether it be individual or across the board.

What I want to know is - what are everyones (casinos) and what are the mechanics behind them? The reason I ask is that I as well as everybody want to know that we're getting the best possible value for money - we are effectively paying for entertainment afterall.

These figures obviously change, so reps - feel free to post figures for as far back as December or so (4 months should be long enough?) and how do you calculate these? Who are you licensed by and who does the auditing?

I may be the only one here who thinks it would be nice to compile a small DB on this information, perhaps something CM could keep track of and publish on the site - I don't know.

I know there are probably sites out there that keep track of these figures, but I'd like to hear it from the horses mouth and have an explanation of how they work.

EXAMPLE - Intercasino recently told me about a payout % that simply shocked me - it was frighteningly low. However, they base theirs on a player basis and over 50,000+ hands. Other casinos I have consulted say that they base theirs on over 1,000,000+ games played over the month and take an average per game and then take the average of those percentages, which I think is a much better system since it effectively gives the smaller players chance to win bigger money.

See what I mean or do I need to be clearer?

Re Intercasino (man do i miss that place), do you mean their payout % was low or their take was low? I think you mean their take which if so doesnt surprise me. I always thought their software was very fair (notwithstanding their streaky blackjack ) and on top of that they gave VERY generous bonuses.

I am almost ashamed to say how far up i was at Intercasino (note i said almost)

[NASHVEGAS]

It is not just Intercasino's streaky Blackjack as I am approaching a half million hands played online at multiple software platforms so I kinda got alot of data. The BJ software is correlated. Does not mean you can not win but besides me being an idiot for playing it, it means something. I do not give a damn what anybody says, people lie,numbers do not! At least John shoots straight,can not be said for many and their agendas. Regulation will improve some issues but not a whole lot. The real estate industry is regulated so what?

[paul02085]

Originally Posted by NASHVEGAS

It is not just Intercasino's streaky Blackjack as I am approaching a half million hands played online at multiple software platforms so I kinda got alot of data. The BJ software is correlated. Does not mean you can not win but besides me being an idiot for playing it, it means something. I do not give a damn what anybody says, people lie,numbers do not! At least John shoots straight,can not be said for many and their agendas. Regulation will improve some issues but not a whole lot. The real estate industry is regulated so what?

Nash, I understand what you are saying re their black jack. i have heard many big bj players say the same thing. I was a low roller and played bj and vp at a low level and did very well but that was as a low roller.

PS- I agree, John is a straight shooter and his candor is much appreciated.

[RobWin]

So no one trusts PWC's reports after Microgaming has used them for years now ???

[Mousey]

Originally Posted by RobWin

So no one trusts PWC's reports after Microgaming has used them for years now ???

PWC pulled out quite awhile ago. I think it was around the time the NETeller 2 were arrested... Or maybe it was when the UIGEA was passed. Do a search in the Inductry section... I think eCogra is in charge of seeing that the casinos are playing fair?

[RobWin]

Originally Posted by Mousey

PWC pulled out quite awhile ago. I think it was around the time the NETeller 2 were arrested... Or maybe it was when the UIGEA was passed. Do a search in the Inductry section... I think eCogra is in charge of seeing that the casinos are playing fair?

Oh yea I know Mousey,,, that's why I put in those "sarcastic" icon's there....I personally think the reports were always a joke anyway...they never matched up to my stats...I believe the last report I saw from them on one of the MG sites was back on 06 IIRC...

[thisisvegas]

quick reply before I head out the door for an hour or 2. Regarding PWC I believe they are legit, if they were not then you would have seen them caught long ago must like the casinobar, english harbour and others who have been caught and proven to not be dealing a fair hand. I still think there must be some group out there that keeps data on these places but personally I would like to see the casino industry follow the poker industry a little better. Personally I believe the PWC payouts but I don't know if they deal exclusively with Microgaming and if that is the case you have to wonder about the questions I mentioned before about regulation and self regulation.

John