how slots work, what do you guys think?

[hippo925]

after doing a little research and talking to some people, i found out some interesting things about how a slot machine might work. i apologize for the long post, but i find it to be an interesting theory.

basically, it is apparently impossible to have a true random number generator, as many of you know. slots work with a "pseudo" random number generator that uses an algorithym that uses a "seed" and adds numbers to that seed to generate different outcomes. apparently, the RNG calculates and rotates through these numbers continuously until the spin button is pressed.

it is possible that the algorythms used allow each "number" to be processed ONLY once and the presentation to the player is only a representation for enjoyment value.

as an example, think of a $1 slot that has 100 possible numbers with only 5 numbers representing "wins."

the number 1 = the jackpot value of $50
the number 2 = line win of $5
the number 3 = line win of $10
the number 4 = bonus spins (3 free spins)
the number 5 = bonus spins (3 free spins)
the numbers 6-100 are blanks, near misses, etc.

when a bonus is hit, a separate calculation is used that that consists of 6 possible numbers for only the bonus (that also can be used only once)
represented by:

spin 1 = blank
spin 2 = blank
spin 3 = blank
spin 4 = $25
spin 5 = $5
spin 6 = $3

in other words, you can get a bonus and hit the first three possbile combinations and win $0, or hit the last three and win $33 or any combination of the six possibilities, but each spin can ONLY be hit once.

after one OR more players have completed the cycle of 100 spins, the payback is 98%.... guaranteed.

in this case, you CANNOT hit a jackpot "back to back" and it is very obvious that every spin is NOT random and likely to occur because if someone else hit the jackpot, you will not....in THIS cycle.

how to make this slot more "random?" increase the cycles. add another 9 sets of these 100 spin cycles and now 10 people can hit the jackpot and 20 bonuses are now possible. you can now hit a jackpot "back to back" and the payback is still 98%.

what if you increase it 100000000 more cycles, than it becomes the closest you can get to random.

so why does a slot sometimes not appear to be random? fewer cycles which lowers the variance for the casino for any period of time. (this can avoid too many jackpots clumped together with more consistent revenue.)

also, i learned that ANYTHING is programmable and possible. interruptions to the cycles, re-directions, etc..... you name it, it is possible.

i thought this was an interesting theory and i know some of you are programmers and have much better insight to share.

in summary: apparently slots CAN be very CLOSE to random, but not the way most people think. also, table games like blackjack can programmed in similar ways...but i don't know if they are. i love slots and this theory might explain some things i've noticed. a slot that relies on these type of mechanics is, for all intesive purposes, pretty random unless it is programmed to do otherwise.

ps... a personal thanks to nashvegas. i just find this topic extremely exciting and garry's posts started my interest in it.

[Eliot Jacobson]

after doing a little research and talking to some people, i found out some interesting things about how a slot machine might work. i apologize for the long post, but i find it to be an interesting theory.

From what I understand, your theory is that slots are programmed to go through a cycle of outcomes in sequential order. You also say: "interruptions to the cycles, re-directions, etc" can occur. Rephrasing, you state that as the cycle grows in length, the appearance of being random can increase as well.

I have programmed a slot machine for an online company, and I can say most definitely this is not how this slot worked.

The basic mathematics of a slot machine is computed via a spread sheet and a simulation of the slot. The analysis of slots via a spread sheet involve computing each outcome possible, and its result. This is how the house-edge is computed for a slot and it is a lot of work. The simulation program verifies the mathematics by playing millions of spins of the slot as a human might play given enough time.

In practice, each spin truly is "random" (the result is computed by requesting a value from a pseudo-random number generator), and no previous event has any effect on a future event's probability of occuring. I would be very interested to see any verified evidence of a slot operating otherwise.

There are most certainly rigged slots in the world, but they are produced by rogue companies, or are the result of incompetent programming. There are also what is known as "class 2" slots which sound a bit more like what you may be talking about. For the difference between class 2 and class 3, see Wikipedia, which I have quoted in part:

Class II game characteristics:
The player is playing against other players and competing for a common prize.
There is certain to be a winner in each game. The game continues until there is a winner.
In a given set there are a certain number of wins and loses. Once a certain combination has happened it cannot happen again until a new batch is initiated. This is most obvious in scratch card games that come in a pack. Once a card has been pulled those winning combinations cannot occur again until a new pack of cards is installed. One game is dependent on previous games.
The player must be an active participant. They must recognize events as they occur and must recognize when they have won and announce their winning. Bingo is an excellent example here.
All players play from the same set of numbers as they are announced.

Class III game characteristics
The player is playing against the house.
There is a very real possibility that the player may lose the game.
Each game is independent of previous games. Any possible outcome can occur in any game.
Wins are announced automatically.

I hope this helps,

--Eliot

[GGW Laurie]

i still like to think its luck, i have hit two r/j in one day same casino same game i have also been at a b/m in tunica and hit all triple diamonds on a slot and when the casino host paid me they had me spin off again and i hit one wheel of fortune and two triple diamonds which is also the same as hitting three diamonds ....................why do they have you spin again when they pay you out and watch? ive always wondered about that

[Rusty]

In practice, each spin truly is "random" (the result is computed by requesting a value from a pseudo-random number generator), and no previous event has any effect on a future event's probability of occuring. I would be very interested to see any verified evidence of a slot operating otherwise.

Verified in what way?

It is obvious that slots do not operate in the way which you suggest, which is a shame as that is exactly how an online slot should operate.

How is it obvious?

Play any bonus slot and when a dry spell is becoming apparent which happens almost always after a winning streak note how often the Wild and/or bonus/scatter symbols appear.
There will be a significant if not huge statistical discrepancy between the expected and actual frequency of how often they appear.

Aslo anybody who plays slots regularly will know just how hard it is to find the third bonus triggering symbol when the first Two appear on the first Two reels.

For examples of Two different slots using Two types of software try these;

Halloweenies : MG
Ronan : RTG

These are Two of the best examples.

Halloweenies; you will notice quite quickly how often the Two scatters appear on the Fourth and Fifth reels yet when the Scatters appear on the first and Second reels they very rarely appear to award the free spins.
In other words the scatters appear an irregular amount of times on either the First Two or last Two reels.
A statistical anomaly here will be that you will win the Bonus round more often when not hitting both the first Two scatters than when you do.

Ronan;You will notice a generally expected frequency of the Scatter/Wild symbol until you have either hit the free spins with retriggers or hit a winning streak.
After this you will notice that the scatter/Wild symbols especially on the first reel appear extremely infrequently.
(Maybe once or Twice in 100 to 200 spins!)

Another obvious tell tale sign that these slots are not random in the sense you describe is how streaky they are.
Oh look no feature for 800 spins and then Five retriggers, fancy that.
These are patterns not isolated incidents.

I could give you a run down on just about every MG and RTG slot and predict their behaviour depending on past results.
Either I am psychic or these slots are not completely random?

Hippo you are right about the RNG and that there is no such thing as a computer being able to generate a completely random number but with a decent RNG the effect is negligible.
I program my own 5 line bonus slots (to 95% for comparison) and the difference is evident.
The payout of some online slots may well be 95% but 95% of what?
95% expected return or 95% of past losses?
Enjoy them for what they are but do not pretend they are completely random.

[NASHVEGAS]

@ Laurie Et Al--------->I know very little about slots (except how to calculate payout ratios),know enough to be dangerous about BJ and have a limited knowledge of a few other table games. That said, for a B&M, unless you can count cards or use a few of the other legal ways to gain an advantage on table games to shift the house advantage or expectation to the player, then even for the most skilled players (not advantage players) overcoming the house advantage or expectation is pure luck a.k.a. as being on the positive side of standard deviation/variance. Of course, there is always the possibilty the player or house could be cheating but a rare occurence in this day and time............as for onlines who knows, I do not but my perception is that online BJ is quite different from B&M (no idea about slots) and I march on but may be getting closer.

[NASHVEGAS]

Hippo,
See your PM's,,,sorry for the delay

[hippo925]

thank you eliot, it is REALLY nice to have an expert around to help clarify things! and i hope you don't mind that i pick your brain.

i knew it would be hard for me to explain in a single post, so i need to clarify and expand on some things as well. this theory came about after talking to someone in the programming and computer field in the aerospace industry (he has no slot knowledge, by the way) and reading up extensively on the topic. essentially, i asked a bunch of questions on how i could theoretically make a slot machine to GUARANTEE a payout percentage and income and be as close to random as possible. virtually every question i asked in the form of "is it possible to ....." was a "yes, of course."

if i am assuming correctly, Eliot was essentially talking about PAR sheets. that the layout of the reels determine the payout over millions of spins dependent on a RNG result giving a "random" result.

"In practice, each spin truly is "random" (the result is computed by requesting a value from a pseudo-random number generator), and no previous event has any effect on a future event's probability of occuring. I would be very interested to see any verified evidence of a slot operating otherwise." (Eliot)

here is the problem... the Week's box.

"So far, the computer-assisted slot fraud has involved a device that simulates the random number generators at the heart of every slot machine. The device finds the pattern in the slot machine's computer and predicts the payout. The computer is called a Weeks Box, after Leo Weeks, an inventor who was charged with trying to use the machine at a Lake Tahoe casino.

In January, the New Jersey State Police charged a technician from Nevada's gaming commission with putting his knowledge of the Weeks Box to work in New Jersey. Detective Pflaumer said the technician, Ronald Harris, had copied the technology from Mr. Weeks's device after it was seized in Nevada. He said Mr. Harris had brought a copy of the computer to Atlantic City. Mr. Harris and an accomplice used the machine to win a $100,000 keno jackpot, he said, an unusually large payout. " (New York Times, 1995)

Now... if every spin is random there should be NO way to predict an outcome or pattern...period. the Week's box determined and predicted patterns which means outcomes were linked and affected eachother....1..3..5..3..2..etc.

this pattern cannot get to 2 unless 1,3,5,3 happens first. follow me?

here's something else (i guess this guy is some gaming expert in Canada?), he is talking about pokies (video slots) and being interviewed:

"Terry Lane: Now getting back to some of the myths, just before we finish. There is this belief amongst gamblers, that if they stay at one machine for long enough, they must eventually get a payout. But if the machines are random, it’s possible that some individual machines never pay out.

Roger Horbay: No, they have a confidence index that’s calculated, so they actually do have to pay out."

Terry Lane: Now tell us about the machines themselves. First of all, are they truly random? That is, are the odds always the same for every single press of the button?

Roger Horbay: That’s hard to determine. It depends on the state regulations, the provincial regulations, whatever regulatory structures are in place around how the machine must work. Overall, the machines I can say generally are random. But the outcome sequences and what you see and what you experience does not feel random to most players.(the national interest, 2005)

any thoughts? by the way, this is all just a curiosity thing for me. i ain't gonna stop playing slots for any reason.... they're too fun!!!

ps... thanks AGAIN garry!!!

[hippo925]

i still like to think its luck, i have hit two r/j in one day same casino same game i have also been at a b/m in tunica and hit all triple diamonds on a slot and when the casino host paid me they had me spin off again and i hit one wheel of fortune and two triple diamonds which is also the same as hitting three diamonds ....................why do they have you spin again when they pay you out and watch? ive always wondered about that

i always thought it was because they didn't want a machine showing a previous jackpot because that deters so many people from playing it. so they have you spin one more time to change the reels.... anyway, that's what i always thought.

[GGW Laurie]

i always thought it was because they didn't want a machine showing a previous jackpot because that deters so many people from playing it. so they have you spin one more time to change the reels.... anyway, that's what i always thought.

..if i ever get lucky in tunica again ill ask why they do that, but your answer could be right, thanks hippo.........................................laur ie

[mysticjoz]

Lauriejim.. I hit a jackpot at Foxwoods many years back.. and the host told me that it was "to clear the reels" (like Hippo said).. it deters players.
If someone walks by and sees a jackpot screen.. they're most definately not going to stop and play that machine. I know I wouldn't.