don't get trampled on, join the players crusade !

[happygobrokey]

now here's a monumental idea: can we players draft and adopt our OWN t&c for us as players, sort of a manifesto for ethical player treatment standards? i don't want to liken it to milestones like the magna carta, tennis court oath, and un declaration of human rights (and the ten commandments if you believe in them), but i think we could make a good declaration to the casinos that we are not just an asset that can be treated like dirt. we would include many of the casinomeister ideals of a fair casino of course.

first we declare that we will not manipulate their t&c's and we agree to get clarification about any grey areas before we play. we declare also that a player presenting this to a casino vows to play within the rules and not abuse a bonus or do a charge-back. we declare that we will take a screenshot record of the casino t&c at the time of deposit/bonus claim, and we expect to be held to those terms under which we accept the offer or have a sufficient notice (of perhaps a week) before a term is added, amended or discontinued - giving us due time to complete the offers under the terms we signed up for. we declare that we will play in any manner which we may think is a winning strategy to us, and the casino must specifically disclose their prohibition of any kinds of bets that are not allowed under bonuses.

we demand that the casino deal a fair game and allow us to play as we please (within any rules applied by the casino under general and bonus t&c) until such time as the casino may wish to deny us further promotions or casino access altogether, but any offers previously undertaken and any cashouts are still to be honoured. we demand a way to verify our own wagering easily (easiest and friendliest being comp/loyalty points per $ wagered, others being a tab in cashier with bonus satisfaction requirements, or a segregated bonus and cash account visible to the player) without having to depend on live chat to know how much we've played. we demand live chat or a guarantee of fewer than 24-48 hours for email support responses which are not "canned", as well as supervisor/manager/accounting contacts to be made available upon request. we require a valid reason for any delay in payment past two weeks from cashout time, and timely updates in that respect until the problem is sorted.

we recognise we are the bread and butter of casinos, and as such we deserve humane and respectful treatment, depsite the absence of real human interaction. casinos do not want to be on the levels of internet pyramid/sympathy scammers, identity thieves and cyber-bullies. live casinos aim to provide a fun entertaining experience; they give you free stuff and they pay immediately. the perks online are the bonus chips upfront and upon signup, and also the immediate and 24/7 availability within one's home. casinos currently have anonymity on their side and like a public company in which the investors demand to know the quality and value of their stocks, the casino should aim for transparency in its practices and provide a comfortable and safe environment in which to play and where wins are worth real cash everytime and anytime one wishes to cash them in (apart from where playthrough is still tied to amounts). furthermore, as players we are all equals, and a nation of origin or language preference or sex or any other factor (provided player is of legal age of course) should not be counted against us or deprive us of anything to which the average person or to one similar in all other respects than an ascribed trait such as above is availed of.

i know the accredited list members will fulfill many if not all of these sort of player stipulations, but i also know there are quite a few perfectly honourable casinos that might have everything short of a rep here and a personal rapport with bryan away from being on here. and with a uniform agreement of what the player expects, the player gets a hard copy that the casino agrees to and that the player can enforce. i am not trying to usurp the meister here; as i understand his true occupation is as a mediator and gambling awareness advocate, not as a casino evaluator or promoter. with a universally recognised "commitment to respect players" the cm accredited list would lose some of its utility, but i think the ultimate goal of an industry standard seal for fair play would do much more to uphold/encourage the integrity of all casinos and protect players who may not have had the pleasure of discovering meisterland. am i way off in outer space or do i have a good suggestion with this? we can draft up our manifesto easily enough and within a month or two we could get millions of petitioners/boycotters to attempt to force this into use. once the news is way public, casinos will be able to say/show via a seal on the website that they adhere to the players code of rights or whatever it would be called, and the loyal trustworthy term-abiding players will have a universal seal of approval to go by. what are your thoughts? is this sacrilege? impractical? useless to even try?

[Simmo!]

Sounds like a reasonable idea to me, although it may be trickier to agree on the "code" than it first appears, especially when it comes to bonuses. If you can overcome that hurdle, then at least you will have something that gives players an outline of what is acceptable, even if the casinos themselves don't respond.

That said, it may be more useful to newbies than established players - I'd guess many around the forums know what they are looking for already. A big task - but worth getting input from people on the idea first for sure.

[AudiManinBoro]

A very difficult and im sure time consuming task considering the multitude of casinos and terms and conditions that vary from site to site. You would need to initially garner support from several leading brand casinos in order for a scheme such as this to carry any weight with a majority but the idea is certainly sound in principle.

[Rusty]

Yes the idea is sound but it is a logistical nightmare and I am not even sure the will is there on either side.

Not so long back I ran a thread that listed the very few Casino's that were to become licensed through the gaming commision in September.

This license should ensure fair play as it is the only license issued by a fully recognised and respected independent body set up by the UK goverment.

I invited representives of Casino's to explain why they had or had not applied for this license as this would surely serve their customers in making an informed choice as to where best to play.

This is the most important news since the advent of remote Casinos and yet
the silence was deafening but not only from the industry.

I was amazed at how little the gambling public seemed to care about the fact that come September they would have properly regulated online Casino's.

Many online Casino's are watching US and waiting to see if WE will keep playing at unregulated sites once WE are given the choice.

As I say your idea is a good one but IMO even if it were to be put into pratice it would probably be too little too late.

I know everybody here is extremely grateful for the incredible effort Brian has put into this site as he has been a beacon of light that has shown the way in the stormy waters of internet gambling.

[EasyRhino]

Interesting idea. Almost more of an "armistice", since it would involve the players following T&Cs and getting clarification in advance on gray areas.

Of course, thsoe players that DO scam the system (multiple accounts, etc) probably would not agree.

However, the other part is pretty interesting. Sort of a "minimum acceptable standards" for casinos. A lot of good ideas, many seem targeted towards current failings of many RTG casinos (which, well, makes sense). The only one that even might produce some trouble on the technical side would be the playthrough-measurer, because RTG coupons don't have consistent playthrough requirements.

[happygobrokey]

Originally Posted by Simmo!

...it may be more useful to newbies than established players - I'd guess many around the forums know what they are looking for already. A big task - but worth getting input from people on the idea first for sure.

this came to me as a result of the prime casino episode with the nt charge-back. if an accredited casino can up and pull this or something like it (and stand by it no less), then surely anyone can. if the casino was made to agree to a codified standard, then we could go after them and have some recourse and their decision would not always be final and unwavering. once they adopt the code and get the seal, they then agree they won't pull any of the "old tricks" that so often get pulled in the current situation. we would know who really wants to run a good ship. as it stands, casinos are like the feudal lords, arbitrating as they see fit and cm is practically the only mercenary/robin hood that is willing to take on the regime. we need to break free of this serfdom! we need some safe havens who will give us rights, like when slaves took the underground railroad to canada!

Originally Posted by EasyRhino

Interesting idea. Almost more of an "armistice", since it would involve the players following T&Cs and getting clarification in advance on gray areas.

Of course, thsoe players that DO scam the system (multiple accounts, etc) probably would not agree.

However, the other part is pretty interesting. Sort of a "minimum acceptable standards" for casinos. A lot of good ideas, many seem targeted towards current failings of many RTG casinos (which, well, makes sense). The only one that even might produce some trouble on the technical side would be the playthrough-measurer, because RTG coupons don't have consistent playthrough requirements.

yes i intended us (the honest players) to undertake the burden of understanding the rules and playing within them. once we agree we will do this, the casino then has no choice but to comply with its own rules and be fair like we were fair in entrusting our money there and playing games of chance with that particular establishment. if a player plays fraudulently and a casino discovers it, the player admits he has broken his own t&c and can't go crying anywhere. honest mistakes like pre-wr withdrawals when not allowed, or excluded games played, will be given the benefit of the doubt and the player allowed to play on normally. if after completing the offer or busting out, the casino can determine the above actions were part of an attempt to "abuse" or sidestep the bonus terms, then the casino can refuse allowing further bonuses. casinos should be able to prevent play on certain games and impose bet limits and playthroughs to curtail the abusive types of plays that can cost a casino offering bonuses. and that's their prerogative, but i think casinos owe it to us to give us humanity and rights and a vote in matters concerning our money. a fair shake is all. nothing more. the honour system if you will. we scratch you scratch. trust.

[vinylweatherman]

This is what eCogra was supposed to be about, but sadly it seems they are too close to the industry, and accept things like "bonus abuse" being a reason to void winnings.
The casinos already have the house edge, and if they did their sums properly and did not cut corners by hiring the cheapest, rather than the best, staff, they would never be hit so much they have to start voiding winnings.

A B&M casino only voids winnings if they discover fraud, I can't see one refusing to pay out because someone bet $100,000 on Black, won, and walked out the door (they would probably send someone after them to offer a free room).

[happygobrokey]

Originally Posted by vinylweatherman

This is what eCogra was supposed to be about, but sadly it seems they are too close to the industry, and accept things like "bonus abuse" being a reason to void winnings.
The casinos already have the house edge, and if they did their sums properly and did not cut corners by hiring the cheapest, rather than the best, staff, they would never be hit so much they have to start voiding winnings.

A B&M casino only voids winnings if they discover fraud, I can't see one refusing to pay out because someone bet $100,000 on Black, won, and walked out the door (they would probably send someone after them to offer a free room).

so you don't believe it's impossible, maybe just unrealistic since the ecogra didn't turn out to be as great as it hoped? i still don't know how we'll circulate it first to players to help draft it, and then to casinos to adopt it. but these days, we got myspace and youtube and any idiot can get their face out there. any one person/thing can be the next big star/trend, the world is fully connected from this decade on, like it never was before.

[mikepipe]

Nice idea. I think, its impractical.
On the other hand: The accredited list intends exactly the same.
And to be of any worth, these rules need a forum, which has Bryans reputation (or similar, but there is no similar one).
Lets make it esier and more consequently: We play on accredited ones only.
That would be a great chance to show the ugly ones the players power, or what we call "Marktmacht" in german (power of the market?).

[happygobrokey]

but this site does not accredit all (and maybe not even half?) of ths upstanding trustworthy casinos out there. and similarly, only maybe 0.0005% of online gamblers read here, all the others get burned first before finding their way here as a result of that. this is why i would hope for a solution that transcends meisterland. that or meisterland has to expand and become a rite of passage for a player, wherein they commit themselves to only visit the accredited/seal-bearing casinos. just like advertising in the media, all the industry needs is a buzzword or a trend (see trans fat, stem cells, eating disorders) and it catches like wildfire.

if der meister's list or another form of player agreement entered into by the casinos is made the standard, and if the players know they can trust their ten commandments are upheld and that the casino is fair and decent to play at. rogue casinos and fraudulent/gnoming players will sort themselves out and within five years the industry will be free of the bad operations. they will have starved, and the truly fraudulent players will have been eliminated so casino bonuses can once again flow freely to the trustworthy individuals who will use the bonuses properly and follow the casinos' terms. i think it may be an unattainable utopia, but each day it becomes easier to accomplish such a task, and in light of UIGEA and rogue activity, such action is required now more than ever and increasing as time goes on if casinos are left to their own devices.