don't get trampled on, join the players crusade !

[mikepipe]

Thanks. You didnt want to read or to understand??
Or is your english worse than mine?

Its impracticable. Please: Use the wonderful option, the accredited list gives us, and concentrate your creative power on making this list what it could be.
got me?

[happygobrokey]

i'm merely saying, there are perhaps many more casinos than those on the list here, that do meet the criteria for being on, and moreover, there are definitely many many gamblers who do not hang out here. the list works fine for those of us here, but as i said probably over 99.99% of gamblers don't read/post here. for us lucky ones, we have a good aggregation of casinos that will satisfy most of our needs, but i don't think wider publicity for the forum and its ideals is a bad thing. of course we here could make a rough draft and see what it would add to our casino experience. all the accredited casinos could probably adapt to the new players code without changing very much, maybe only timestamping web pages.

because it's true, there is not much to b&m (not brick&mortar) about when it comes to meister-listed joints. i just like the concept of having the casino "sign" and agree to some of OUR terms and so that we do have some sort of a leg to stand on in disputes that may arise. like if there's anything you just wish every casino could get "right", for instance blocking you from even entering a bonus-restricted game (avoiding voiding your winnings). our "bill of rights" could be piggybacked on the accredited casinos to get it out there, and hopefully it would make news and other casinos could hear of it. casinomeister can of course have the brand for it, and basically we will be promoting the forum. for instance, players could be sent here to sign the bill of rights, confirming they agree to its declarations and to play diligently, read and screenie their bonus terms, and expect the fair treatment which is detailed therein.

yes, WE're safe by sticking to the meister list, but what of all those poor suckers out there getting shafted with no recourse? surely WE are not above them, and they don't deserve it any more than we do. do all the accredited casinos at least display a meister seal of some sort on their site to help advertise this site? i'm not trying to start any revolution, just putting ideas out there for criticism

[lojo]

Brainstorm I wish you were getting more feedback on this idea.

Not to complicate, just to brainstorm. What if player were to join in 'classes' we could be sorted by a questionaire. Once 'rated' or classified, we'd agree to play in that class or apply for another status.

• I use bonuses as often as possible and hardly ever come back win or lose without a bonus.
  
• I use bonuses as often as possible and when I find a casino I like I play there with or without future bonuses.
  
• SUB don't really interest me, I prefer loyalty rewards and comps.
  
• I prefer not to play with a bonus at all and would like the EV to reflect that.

I'm sure I left out a lot of styles.

I'm not really missing your point HGB, just brainstorming and expanding, by all means redirect

(here goes lojo into broken record mode again)

I'd like to see a casino offer different payout% for different classes of players, sans boni.

Say if you started out at 85%, and a dime had the same paytable as a dollar, after a certain amount of playthrough the house edge could go down eventually reaching something like 3%. Comps and other incentives could be scattered out amonst the flock.

Mathmatical or advantage players would have no real use for this system, but if they did use it, they would have to earn their way up to the beatable edge. A gambler playing high varience slots could do quite well.

Promotions could be done through a new kind of affiliate. If I referred you, and you played through x amount, I could have my edge increased.


ahhh, never mind, I'm babbling... I'll try to get more inline with your original idea and through some ideas out there later. The cool thing about brainstorming, is there are no bad ideas, just ideas that may not work for the particular concept.


Storm!!!

[happygobrokey]

lojo i have heard of something sort of like what you are describing. and maybe it was from 3dice and that's why you got the idea. they have a vip or high roller room carrying games with zero house edge to them. not sure what games could do this and how they would be altered for that to be so. maybe a blackjack would pay 7/4 or 9/5 or even 2/1? obviously it's easy to make vp and slots variants that pay 100% or greater, but for card games not so much so, unless you can find a combination of rules (number of decks, five- or six-card charlie, resplit aces, bonus payout on suited bj's, 777/678 bonuses, etc) to make the card game play at >=100%.

it is a cool idea, and might be as simple to implement as having these sort of games only available when you have no bonus in your account, or when you deposit more than 500 in one shot, or if you have deposited more than 2k overall, or any such condition. imo i think different classes/ranks of players would be too confusing and require to much fiddling around in the software, but definitely there could be better games for more loyal/affluent players, and which could be restricted from bonus play entirely. and i think the payout and house edge of these games is up to each casino to determine (and of course we'll require in our terms they publish their payouts regularly). i appreciate the input from everyone so far. we're still at the cocktail napkin level right now though, so please feel free to add more to the discussion.

[lojo]

Yeah, I'll go back to the original thought and try to storm it up some.

Maybe 3Dice got that idea from one of my broken record posts, or great minds think alike

[happygobrokey]

not sure, and not certain it was them, but hey, s'all good in the hood yizzheard? sorry, snoop dogg was on tv at the hockey game tonight

[Addisyn]

We as players must accept the rules of the casinos. What we do not have to accept is a being treated unfairly. My thought is simple. We only play at those casinos that respect the player.

It is not a boycott just the player being choosy. Withdrawal time must be a certain amount of time or you don't play there again. I don't care what excuse is given.

Just as CM accredits casinos we must choose wisely. If we accept crappy customer service, slow withdrawals, and just downright thoughtlessness of the player we deserve nothing more.

Once players realize they have leverage by simply avoiding those casinos who refuse to do the right thing all of the time I think our message will be taken to heart.

[elscrabinda]

What attracts me most is casinos where you can play ANY game you like regardless of whether there is a bonus in your account. Of course casinos can and should restrict the games that qualify for filling wagering requirements but its so much more relaxing playing at wagerworks or microgaming (although Prime have spoilt that now, back to poring over terms and conditions with a fine tooth comb checking that we're allowed to play in months without an r in) than at places you know, accredited or not, will jump on any opportunity to void your winnings.

How on earth are you meant to relax at ANY RTG or Playtech casino when you know that a slight slip of the mouse, a snuck in bonus, or an absent minded roulette spin could cost you all your winnings. I appreciate there are advantages to the player of playing even house edge games in the case of sticky bonuses etc but surely its better to take the one time hit, block them from future bonuses than to terrify your other customers away from receiving any bonuses at all.


There are very few casinos even on the meister's list where if you find a bonus in your account you shouldn't panic and wonder what silly terms you have to comply with. That shouldn't be what recreational gambling is about, and the excuse so often given that "its in our ts and cs, we're allowed to do what we like" is missing the point entirely.

[3Dice]

Hey guys,

Just wanted to share my thoughts on this. When some time ago, in the 3Dice thread we had a discussion about SUB versus loyalty, we ran all the nrs and considered all scenario's.

The commonly used comp and loyalty systems are designed to do an overall decrease of the house edge. Let me explain how that works and how you have to read those terms...

The house edge is defined as the total pay divided by the total stake. That means that, obviously, on an average, the casino makes the house edge for each time you make a stake. Comp programs also give you points for each time you make a stake. So the house edge substracts a bit from each stake, and the comp program adds a bit back ..

Now, on to how to figure out what that bit is .. I'll use some common nrs, but feel free to substitute with any set you find. (these are NOT the 3dice numbers.. ours are much better )

Lets assume an overall house edge of 97%. Most comp programs will give you one loyalty point for every $10 wagered. A common exchange ratio would be 100 comp points to get $1 back. Lets do the math

we wager $1000
house edge substracts $30 (3% of $1000)
comp points earned : 100
comp point redeem : $1

house edge before comp program : ($1000 - $30) / 10 = 97%
house edge after comp program : ($1000 - $30 + $1) / 10 = 97.1%

These are nrs you'll find all over and as you can see not really such an interesting deal. Important tho is that the technique is valid for all parties .. it will truly reward loyal players and is abuse-proof.

We finally decided to use a technique like this (with much better nrs), and to gain back on the 'marketability' of the feature, you can exchange your comp points at twice their value if you claim them as a 20% no WR bonus on a new deposit.

At the end of the story, regular players can use their comp points to claim 20% bonuses on almost every deposit they make, and there's no fiddling around with WR's or weird conditions afterwards ..

For as long as the deposit bonuses are handed out the way they are, these dumb t&c's will be required .. and for as long as the casinomanagers change the allowed games every two seconds .. some sw providers will not catch up and implement the stuff needed
to guide the customer into playing the right games ..

just my twopence

grts

enzo@3Dice

[Vesuvio]

they have a vip or high roller room carrying games with zero house edge to them.

Betfair have zero house edge games open to all (using the "tricks" you mention to make the payout 100%).