The Golden Goose saga................

**tim5ny** · 2nd April 2007, 03:34 PM

People like Simmo! , Spearmaster, and many others may recount the days when the Golden Goose games were newly released and it seemed like everybody was getting phenomonel wins like crazy on those games. 5 Scatters were as common as 2 nines in Thunderstruck it seemed for awhile, but then something changed drastically with the payouts. Now assuming that the game is random, and that each reel still has the same number of symbols in the same order as they did from their inception, then what does a software manufacturer do to change the payout odds? Are the reels weighted ? Can the weights be placed in different places on the reels so as to lessen the payout? I'm speaking in terms of the physical realm, but it can be applied to the virtual also for this subject. I don't really understand how it can be changed in a purely random slot without adding or taking away one or more symbols from the reels. What is the answer to Mystery of the disappearing Goose?

**happygobrokey** · 2nd April 2007, 04:01 PM

i was under the impression reels are just a gimmick. the guts of the machine is just a computer that randomly selects a payout for you. these are of course weighted within the machine's memory/hard drive so the lower wins come far more frequently. and to regulate the payout % i think it just programs itself to make more or fewer "win nothings" based on what it's paid out compared to the amount it's taken in. you press spin, it chooses how much it will pay on that spin, and while the reels turn it translates the payout into a combination of reels that pay that amount. that's the best i can come up with. i know the reels themselves do not determine the outcome, it is all handled by the machine's processor. the rest of what i said was just a guess.

**vinylweatherman** · 2nd April 2007, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by happygobrokey

i was under the impression reels are just a gimmick. the guts of the machine is just a computer that randomly selects a payout for you. these are of course weighted within the machine's memory/hard drive so the lower wins come far more frequently. and to regulate the payout % i think it just programs itself to make more or fewer "win nothings" based on what it's paid out compared to the amount it's taken in. you press spin, it chooses how much it will pay on that spin, and while the reels turn it translates the payout into a combination of reels that pay that amount. that's the best i can come up with. i know the reels themselves do not determine the outcome, it is all handled by the machine's processor. the rest of what i said was just a guess.

This is certainly how the "random" UK slots work, as they run under "bingo" rules as a tax dodge. Online slots are not supposed to work like this, neither are proper Vegas slots. If this can be proved for online slots, it provides evidence of deception, as it would be possible to alter payouts in a way that it could be hidden from independent audit (as per Prof Zoozie).

**vinylweatherman** · 2nd April 2007, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by vinylweatherman

This is certainly how the "random" UK slots work, as they run under "bingo" rules as a tax dodge. Online slots are not supposed to work like this, neither are proper Vegas slots. If this can be proved for online slots, it provides evidence of deception, as it would be possible to alter payouts in a way that it could be hidden from independent audit (as per Prof Zoozie).

The Geese can cheat by lowering the odds of getting the goose bonus per play, and then reducing the number of good ones, and increasing the laying of those worthless golden eggs to the bottom right.

**tim5ny** · 2nd April 2007, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by vinylweatherman

The Geese can cheat by lowering the odds of getting the goose bonus per play, and then reducing the number of good ones, and increasing the laying of those worthless golden eggs to the bottom right.

Maybe true, but most of the big wins were from single spins and not during bonus rounds for example, 5 scatters was a very common sight.

**Simmo!** · 2nd April 2007, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by tim5ny

Maybe true, but most of the big wins were from single spins and not during bonus rounds for example, 5 scatters was a very common sight.

Although you could argue that a) they were a new concept so more people were playing them and more often and b) people only posted the decent wins so these would undoubtedly have accounted for a small proportion of spins.

That said, I do believe something changed and I take your point about paytables. Personally, I think what changed was the bonus rounds, when they were awarded, which ones came out, and what they paid which would be far easier to manipulate than anything else.

**happygobrokey** · 2nd April 2007, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by vinylweatherman

This is certainly how the "random" UK slots work, as they run under "bingo" rules as a tax dodge. Online slots are not supposed to work like this, neither are proper Vegas slots. If this can be proved for online slots, it provides evidence of deception, as it would be possible to alter payouts in a way that it could be hidden from independent audit (as per Prof Zoozie).

really? i guess just what you are saying is instead of a numerical payout chosen, the machine stores every possible reel combination and randomly chooses one?

this and the what's random thread are quite perplexing. i don't see how it would deceive to have the combinations that pay the same lumped together in the machine's memory. what i mean is, once the first two reels are duds, then barring a bunch of wilds you are going to win nothing (like when a player is drawing dead in poker, the remaining cards/reels become irrelevant). it would be more elegant and practical to not force the machine to decide immaterial reels. and if the win amount is fixed anyway, what does it really matter what symbols come up. what i said about the machine varying how often it pays nothing to account for larger payouts, this was the only way i could think of that one could tune a machine to a different payout %. i know little about slots, so of course i will defer to vwm, but this is an interesting debate and i look forward to more enlightenment. but i don't get that if the reels themselves do function in deciding the game, or if each possible outcome is mapped onto the machine's computer memory, then how can they adjust the payout %'s? it's a fact two of the same machine right next to each other can be tweaked to pay out differently, but if all the machinery is the same and there is no way to adjust the weighting of the outcomes, how is it possible?

**tim5ny** · 2nd April 2007, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by Simmo!

Although you could argue that a) they were a new concept so more people were playing them and more often and b) people only posted the decent wins so these would undoubtedly have accounted for a small proportion of spins.

That said, I do believe something changed and I take your point about paytables. Personally, I think what changed was the bonus rounds, when they were awarded, which ones came out, and what they paid which would be far easier to manipulate than anything else.

Maybe so, but I think it's your fault after hitting 12.5k on one spin. MG blinked!