3Dice casino - Any thoughts?

[thenmh]

... On top of that, it takes budget away from bonus hunters that can now be spent on non fraudulent players .. If you loose, no prob, and if you hit big, there's no ID huslle and no questions asked

Bonus hunters that respect the rules should not be confused with fraudulent players.

[3Dice]

Bonus hunters that respect the rules should not be confused with fraudulent players.

Absolutely, wrong phrasing .. I'm refering to ppl who create 30 accounts to get 30 times the bonus someone fair gets .. (fair being obeying the one account rule)

[jetset]

Quite a long post here, I'm posting a bit out of frustration. Frustration caused by the signup bonus system. On one side, I have the techs working full time on tracking down israeli bonus hunters with 20, 30 or more accounts, and on the other side, I see returning players, even small players that never claim the bonus. We are forced to implement more and more strict wagering requirements, identity controls, and it seems to be scaring off more and more players that do not create multiple accounts, and that do play by the rules.

So what is the use of a bonus system like that ? Is it still in the interest of the people that play by the rules ? Are they not the ones that deserve both the entire budget for that as well as the techs full attention ?

The argument that is keeping the signup bonus system in place is to get more play, especially on the typical smaller first deposit. To give the player a chance to experience the casino with the thrill of real money, without having to put up the full initial budget.

We have a sugestion for a different bonus system and I would love to hear what the thoughts about it are.

The main things we want to establish is that there's no more fuzz with wagering requirements, or identity controls. We also have to establish more play, and we want the full bonus budget allocated to those who deserve it most. The idea would be to double up the initial deposit. That effectively
doubles your play. If you run out of luck and loose the combined budget, no problem .. ..if you draw the royal flush .. no silly wagering requirements or strip-down-to-your-underwear identity checks, but playing with 50% the casino's money, your withdraw is restricted to half the win.

A system like that effectively doubles your play and removes wagering requirements. On top of that, it takes budget away from bonus hunters that can now be spent on non fraudulent players .. If you loose, no prob, and if you hit big, there's no ID huslle and no questions asked.

just a sugestion .. thoughts ?

That sounds to me like a solution that might just work - certainly you're facing a very common operator problem in an industry where the bonus tends to generate most of the complaints, mostly due to operators getting pissed off that players who take a bonus don't stay loyal.

You clearly have a good grasp of what's going on and understand that bonus hunters who play within the T&Cs are not *bonus abusers* or for that matter crooks, which is a common operator misconception that too frequently leads to unfair bonus disqualification decisions.

The casino draws up the rules (T&Cs) and should meet its obligations under those rules. If it doesn't like the manner in which a player comports him or herself it can lock that player out - first paying what is due.

Very few people in the industry have any time for fraudsters like chargebackers or multi-account crooks, but all too often the wrong people are victimised by irate and frustrated operators/managers who want more from players than they asked for in their T&Cs.

I think Lojo's point about the bonus being optional and upfront is also worth re-emphasising.

btw (and I am not an Israeli) this multi account crap can come from other geographical locations too!

[Zoozie]

We have a sugestion for a different bonus system and I would love to hear what the thoughts about it are.

The main things we want to establish is that there's no more fuzz with wagering requirements, or identity controls. We also have to establish more play, and we want the full bonus budget allocated to those who deserve it most. The idea would be to double up the initial deposit. That effectively
doubles your play. If you run out of luck and loose the combined budget, no problem .. ..if you draw the royal flush .. no silly wagering requirements or strip-down-to-your-underwear identity checks, but playing with 50% the casino's money, your withdraw is restricted to half the win.

Basically that is not a bonus. If you deposit 100$ and get 100$ bonus and playing 1$/spin/bet/whatever, the situation is totally identical to
depositing 100$ and NOT receiving a bonus and betting 0.5$/spin/bet/whatever. And still you get the same amount of action before going bust.

ANY combination of outcomes of games will give identical result at withdrawal time. So that is a 'bogus' bonus actually. (*)

Reducing the signup bonus from 100$(100%) to 50$(100%) would still bring
interested players in and the bonus not be very attractive the frausters (I think).

The signup bonus is always problematic, but keeping the loyal players is what is important for the casino in the long run and they stay because of
the loyalty program, not sign-up bonus.

(*)
The only difference is in case of rapid fire progressive slots where bet-size increases chance to win the progressive, but 3Dice does not have such games yet.


Zoozie

[3Dice]

Basically that is not a bonus. If you deposit 100$ and get 100$ bonus and playing 1$/spin/bet/whatever, the situation is totally identical to
depositing 100$ and NOT receiving a bonus and betting 0.5$/spin/bet/whatever. And still you get the same amount of action before going bust.

ANY combination of outcomes of games will give identical result at withdrawal time. So that is a 'bogus' bonus actually. (*)

Reducing the signup bonus from 100$(100%) to 50$(100%) would still bring
interested players in and the bonus not be very attractive the frausters (I think).

The signup bonus is always problematic, but keeping the loyal players is what is important for the casino in the long run and they stay because of
the loyalty program, not sign-up bonus.

(*)
The only difference is in case of rapid fire progressive slots where bet-size increases chance to win the progressive, but 3Dice does not have such games yet.


Zoozie

Well, apart from e.g. the higher paytable on maxcoin in vp, you are right, and the net result of this is that with a fraud ratio of 10 to 1, the budget on the
loyaltee program would increase greatly.

I just thought of another possibility. What would you say Zoozie, if we offer something as above to "out-of-the-blue" players, but if you have a trackrecord in our competition system (a couple of hours of play), you qualify for a more interesting no-pain bonus system. (as you've 'physically' proven to be an individual). These multi-account setups are eating into your budget !!! I want to stop them and give that money to those that deserve it. We're open to any good sugestions, this is not just our problem ... it concerns all players that play by the rules.

[Zoozie]

Well, apart from e.g. the higher paytable on maxcoin in vp, you are right, and the net result of this is that with a fraud ratio of 10 to 1, the budget on the
loyaltee program would increase greatly.

I just thought of another possibility. What would you say Zoozie, if we offer something as above to "out-of-the-blue" players, but if you have a trackrecord in our competition system (a couple of hours of play), you qualify for a more interesting no-pain bonus system. (as you've 'physically' proven to be an individual). These multi-account setups are eating into your budget !!! I want to stop them and give that money to those that deserve it. We're open to any good sugestions, this is not just our problem ... it concerns all players that play by the rules.

I just have a problem with you calling it a signup-bonus. It is no bonus at all, the house edge is the same etc. If you really insist on calling it a bonus why not give a 9900% bonus, with the catch that at withdrawal balance is divided by 100? The result is the same. The last 2 digits of the balance is just bogus. Some players might think they actually are getting a bonus and that is misleading. Also players do not need more complicated T&C they need to figure out. It is a jungle already.

I fully understand the frustration the abusers are giving you and they should not receive a dime. Many casino simply do not give players from a certain country the signup-bonus.Maybe you can only accept credit-card from players from these countries, since fraud with these is really hard? Also I would cut the signup bonus to 50$ if I was you. Maybe when you are ready for the big launch AND have fraud measures ready, they you can go to 100$ again.


Also I a few casinos also actually called me on the phone to confirm my id. I know this would take some time, but the money saved would cover the time
used many many times. Besides if anyone answers just ask then questions about what games they played etc.. (in case of using RL proxy players when signing up). I know withdrawal time is a big issue and I agree it is important. However for the first withdrawal from a casino I would not mind a delay and I believe up to 2 weeks is acceptable. Some casinos want to see utility bills/bank-statement/passport.

For loyalty the best loyalty program I have seen is from the Roxy group. All players can get up to 15% bonus (up to 25$) twice a week. 'Silver Members' can get 25% up to 100$ etc. Top loyalty players get a 30% bonus I think. Status depend on wagering the previous months.

This is a better solution that both Bodog and now Sands/Omni uses. Bodog just give 10% to everyone while Sands/Omni give 100% up to 100$ if you played a lot (6000$ wager) the previous month.

The problem with the Bodog bonus is that loyal players gets no more than normal players and at Sands/Omni this bonus favors medium rollers since
low rollers never gets this bonus. The Omni/Sand bonus is pretty much equal to the 25% bonus at Roxy actually, but at Roxy low rollers and high rollers also gets something useful.

For loyalty bonus/promotions I think it is important to target both low/medium and high-rollers. The much used 'top 10 players with most wagered during promotion wins' is a really stupid promotion that I would never participate in (or have the money to participate).
The free competitions and how often people log in to play could be a good measure for loyalty.

I thought I have had for some time is to give loyal players better games (and maybe new games). Ie. a VP variant with 99.8% payout or even a slot with
98% payout! (maybe just adjust the paytable for an existing slot) Then people would actually be very interested in becoming a loyal player and would
feel special.

Zoozie

[3Dice]

Thanks Zoozie, for the feedback.

I just have a problem with you calling it a signup-bonus. It is no bonus at all, the house edge is the same etc. If you really insist on calling it a bonus why not give a 9900% bonus, with the catch that at withdrawal balance is divided by 100? The result is the same. The last 2 digits of the balance is just bogus. Some players might think they actually are getting a bonus and that is misleading. Also players do not need more complicated T&C they need to figure out. It is a jungle already.

So how to call it then ? Say you are standing outside of any brick and morter casino on the strip, only $50 in your pocket to play. Someone offers you an extra $50 to play with, its ok to loose, but if you win he wants half the win. I know how the odds work out, but you do get a $100 to play with, doubling the maximum amount of gameplay you get. (as the maximum amount of gameplay is the amount you get when you play at minimum stakes. Obviously, playing at higher stakes will give you less play for the same $$ .. ). And I agree that thats the only thing it does. Give you the possibility to double the maximum amount of gameplay you get. For a first time deposit, it'll let you discover more games, and try more stuff. And if on top of that it means better percentages for loyalty bonuses, than would that not be a good thing ?

I fully understand the frustration the abusers are giving you and they should not receive a dime. Many casino simply do not give players from a certain country the signup-bonus.Maybe you can only accept credit-card from players from these countries, since fraud with these is really hard? Also I would cut the signup bonus to 50$ if I was you. Maybe when you are ready for the big launch AND have fraud measures ready, they you can go to 100$ again.


Also I a few casinos also actually called me on the phone to confirm my id. I know this would take some time, but the money saved would cover the time
used many many times. Besides if anyone answers just ask then questions about what games they played etc.. (in case of using RL proxy players when signing up). I know withdrawal time is a big issue and I agree it is important. However for the first withdrawal from a casino I would not mind a delay and I believe up to 2 weeks is acceptable. Some casinos want to see utility bills/bank-statement/passport.

Well, I just see that effort as a big cost paid by the wrong people. Would a strategy that emphasises play on a brand new account and instead higher loyalty bonuses still be interesting for a player to make a first deposit at ?

For loyalty bonus/promotions I think it is important to target both low/medium and high-rollers. The much used 'top 10 players with most wagered during promotion wins' is a really stupid promotion that I would never participate in (or have the money to participate).

The free competitions and how often people log in to play could be a good measure for loyalty.

It's a measure for identity in the first place. It would mean a fraudulent person would have to play hours and hours and hours on each of his identity's .. If you're not in it for the fun it should hardly be worth the while ..

I thought I have had for some time is to give loyal players better games (and maybe new games). Ie. a VP variant with 99.8% payout or even a slot with
98% payout! (maybe just adjust the paytable for an existing slot) Then people would actually be very interested in becoming a loyal player and would
feel special.

That is indeed, a very interesting idea. I think we have some new slots coming up . Thanks Zoozie for all the feedback, very much so appreciated.

[Simmo!]

I thought I have had for some time is to give loyal players better games (and maybe new games). Ie. a VP variant with 99.8% payout or even a slot with
98% payout! (maybe just adjust the paytable for an existing slot) Then people would actually be very interested in becoming a loyal player and would
feel special.

Top idea

[Zoozie]

So how to call it then ? Say you are standing outside of any brick and morter casino on the strip, only $50 in your pocket to play. Someone offers you an extra $50 to play with, its ok to loose, but if you win he wants half the win. I know how the odds work out, but you do get a $100 to play with, doubling the maximum amount of gameplay you get. (as the maximum amount of gameplay is the amount you get when you play at minimum stakes. Obviously, playing at higher stakes will give you less play for the same $$ .. ). And I agree that thats the only thing it does. Give you the possibility to double the maximum amount of gameplay you get. For a first time deposit, it'll let you discover more games, and try more stuff. And if on top of that it means better percentages for loyalty bonuses, than would that not be a good thing ?

Well, I just see that effort as a big cost paid by the wrong people. Would a strategy that emphasises play on a brand new account and instead higher loyalty bonuses still be interesting for a player to make a first deposit at ?

B&M casinos are a little different since of the minimum bet at BlackJack is high. For online casinos it is not the same. Unless you expect someone to play
at LOWEST nomination etc. 0.20$ at a 20-line slots ALL THE TIME, then you are right it would increase play time, but if they play 0.40$ or more, the whole idea is gone. Anyway that is just my opinion, but I simply really dislike your 'bonus' idea.

If you can save just 100$ instead of giving them to frausters, I am sure spending 10 minutes is worth it(even several hours actually). In 10 minutes you can give them a phone call and also use an online webpage (most countries have one) where you can find people and check the address.

A 50$ or 100$ signup bonus would not make much difference to me, but I can not speak for all people of course. A sign up bonus IS important though. And I have no really good ideas here except better frauster capturing methods. Registering IP/Subdomains/country/MAC-address.

Claiming the bonus before depositing (RTG/Crypto/Rival etc) is a very good idea that would result in few bonus complaints. And you can change rules+T&C here instantly and stop a frauster country opposed to T&C on a webpage which always give complaints when changed.

To boost a slot for loyal players a good way is to increase top pay (5 wilds).
For most slots increasing it from 10000 to 1M would only increase payout by 3.8%! (ThunderStruck at MG). I never understood why 5 wilds always pays so little.

For JoB VP increasing RF to 4500 would give 99.8% payout and be the best 'Jack of Better' at online casinos. Would be good for marketing your casino.

For BJ there are also many ways to give loyal players something more.


Zoozie

[lojo]

Zoozie:

Basically that is not a bonus. If you deposit 100$ and get 100$ bonus and playing 1$/spin/bet/whatever, the situation is totally identical to
depositing 100$ and NOT receiving a bonus and betting 0.5$/spin/bet/whatever. And still you get the same amount of action before going bust.

This makes perfect sense to me, but does it assume playthrough to bust?

I do see the proposal as a bonus. Here's why:

I deposit $50, it is matched for a total of $100... I play through the first fifty, now I am playing with free money. I hit some good lines or a feature and decide to cash out. Had I not been playing with their money, I would have no cashout. Now I have 50% of something I would not have had before. Sweet.

Were I to hit a nice return in the first half of my bankroll, it may not be quite as attractive: Say I've spent $25, hit a 'jackpot' for $100, so my balance is $175. If I have to give up half of that to cash out I'll get $87.50. Still not bad, still some free money.

These are two potential circumstances where it looks attractive to me. I would be less pleased with the second one, because 'I didn't need their money to win, and now I have to give up half!?!" If I were to be of fair mind, however, I would be quite happy with the bonus. As long as I understood the possibility.

I'm assuming a fairly large win here, granted. Are there scenarios, without playing it all through where the return is not so attractive? Say, a bunch of small wins, or pushes?