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VC Casino -- Fair BJ?

aka23

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Joined
Jun 11, 2006
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I recently started an affiliate site, primarily focusing on bonuses. I receive player reports with most casinos stating the net gain/loss that my referred players had. All casinos report a net casino loss (player gain) from my referrals that is reasonably close to expectations except for one -- VC Casino. At VC Casino, the casino made a net gain on their sign up bonus. Most players roughly broke even. Nobody has even been in the ballpark of the expected BJ gain on the sign on bonus of near 225GBP.

Being from the US, I've never played at VC. Does the BJ seem fair here? Is there a condition on the sign on bonus that I am unaware of?
 
We had our discussion in the thread about the fairness/randomness of online casinos, playing this Bonus was the first time i really had serious doubts.

On a 200 deposit over a wr of 5000 i completly busted and had to reload 50 to break even. I was Flatbetting 2 playing perfectstrategy on their single Deck BJ wich has, according to the WoO Houseedge Calculator, an edge of ~0,2%.

But then again i know several People who did not experiance any unusual patterns.

What really was scary were the amount of 20 and 21 with rags form the dealer.

If you had not posted this topic i would have said tough luck and variance was a bitch that day but now iam interested in more experiences.
 
I recently started an affiliate site, primarily focusing on bonuses. I receive player reports with most casinos stating the net gain/loss that my referred players had. All casinos report a net casino loss (player gain) from my referrals that is reasonably close to expectations except for one -- VC Casino. At VC Casino, the casino made a net gain on their sign up bonus. Most players roughly broke even. Nobody has even been in the ballpark of the expected BJ gain on the sign on bonus of near 225GBP.

Being from the US, I've never played at VC. Does the BJ seem fair here? Is there a condition on the sign on bonus that I am unaware of?



How many signups have you had? This would show whether it's statistically significant or not.
 
I did the bonus there playing I think the 6-deck vegas BJ purposely avoiding the single deck version (the bonus hunters pick).

I broke even across the WRs with some small bet size increases (ie $3 to $10) when I thought a streaky upswing was happening. The streaks were relatively minor compared to say Cryptos and other places.

Hearing your players experiences doesn't surprise me one little bit. These places just can not be trusted on their own volition - too much tampering is going on behind the scenes with no way of ascertaining whether players are getting a fair deal.

I would be interested in learning of your Grand Virtual BJ statistics. No way are they dealing a fair game. When I requested a log of my play (Treasure) they responded with the fact that they unable to produce play logs. Not even the Casino can ascertain if the SW is playing fair without access to the play logs. But never mind - they are an accredited casino.


...
 
I played it in usd and had to deposit $450 to get a $450 match bonus. The wagering reqs were $9000 but their software was so brutal. I started out flat betting $10 a hand but said screw it and started banging away like it was a sticky bonus. I ended up $375 with average bets in the $50 range and got the bonus and cashed out no problem.
 
I too am curious to see how many sign ups you had as I told my friend who is just starting to whore and he ended down $350 before the bonus was credited so a net gain of $100 for him.
I have been getting 1-2 signups at VC per day. The site has been up for less than a week, so its not significant yet, but it will be by the end of the month. If there is a problem with this casino, I'd like to know about it before lots of players lose.

Players did better yesterday. The average gain was ~80GPB. This is better, but still quite a bit short from the exepcted player gain of 225GBP. In contrast, players fall close to expectations with other cashable BJ sign up bonuses. For example the average player gain at Golden Palace has been $280, very close to the expected $270.

At the end of the month, I'll compare stats at different casinos and look for abnormal results.
 
Similar abnormal results continued throughout the month. A summary of average player gains and losses is at a variety of casinos including VC is at
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. At 2+2, a good number of players mentioned seeing odd results similar to my stats and suspecting this is a crooked game.
 
I have now finished under EV every time I have played BJ in Chartwell casinos (normal BJ, not european, single deck or lucky 7s). Usually also HUGE under EV. This is spread to ~14 individual sessions and total wagering amount has been close to $100,000 flatbetting between $2-$10. I have played BJ with every major software and never ever have experienced anything like this.

I hope someone would be able to run huge tests with this software, like flat betting $1 wagering $100,000 or so in REAL MONEY mode. I am willing to do this, if someone finances me into it.
 
Any updates on this? I don't want to cry "rigged rigged", but you start to wonder when you play Chartwell. (It is the worst software on they net anyway, but still)

Has anyone investigated this any further? Have you more statistics aka?

I think this is strong enough indication of an unfair game to investigate it further.
 
A lot has changed since I started the thread last year. During that first month, my stats for VC did look abnormal. During later months my stats looked reasonably normal. I removed the warning due to this change in results, as well as VC's quality reputation and Chartwell being a publicly traded company.

Having said that, a good number of players do believe that Chartwell blackjack is not purely random, more so than most other softwares. I have not seen supporting numerical data that shows results beyond normal variance. It would be very helpful to have such data. This could be in the form of lost #$ in # $1 bets, rate of dealer upcards, rate of dealer bust, etc.
 
Check my post in the thread: https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/betfair-voids-winnings-on-atp-tennis-match.19117/
about blackjack stats of the chartwell casino Betfair.

Before August I was not following 100% basic strategy, I was changing the number of boxes, etc, that is why I do not refer these results here. As you can guess, for now on I also play for stats too.

So, my results at VC for August up to this moment, are:

hands played=5,607
average bet=1.22$
profit/loss= -150.50$

(I was about -175$ when I had completed about 5,500 hands, I think)

Using the calculator at Old / Expired Link,
the risk of ruin when someone has a bankroll of 150.50$/1.22$=123 units of bankroll after 5607 hands, is 18.74%

Aka23, have you got an idea why the value for the standard deviation in 100 hands at this calculator is set at 27.72 instead of 11.3? Am I doing something wrong?

Sorry about this rough analysis, I have to revise estimation and hypothesis testing. I was very deep into it, but I forgot now. Till then, Aka23 or somebody else can remind us how to use the Gauss bell-like distribution for the matter concerned. Does the 18.74% mean that we can be 100-18.74=81.26% certain that cheating was on? I cannot answer that yet. I will let you know after my revision. But I have some wagering to finish at VC and another chartwell casino (bbbbbbr, I am scared). I will not be amazed if I get good luck after this post of mine though.
 
A lot has changed since I started the thread last year. During that first month, my stats for VC did look abnormal. During later months my stats looked reasonably normal. I removed the warning due to this change in results, as well as VC's quality reputation and Chartwell being a publicly traded company.

Having said that, a good number of players do believe that Chartwell blackjack is not purely random, more so than most other softwares. I have not seen supporting numerical data that shows results beyond normal variance. It would be very helpful to have such data. This could be in the form of lost #$ in # $1 bets, rate of dealer upcards, rate of dealer bust, etc.

I've played the signup and all of the weekly bonuses for the last 3 months. Firstly, I'll say that I have finished above or close to EV on every bonus, so this is not a anti-VC response. I flatbet $2-$3 a hand at single-deck.

The cards at VC are amazing and really frustrate the player. It is not uncommon for the dealer to hit 21 with 6 cards, but having said this, it also happens to the player as well. I have also noticed that the dealer busts when holding a 10 a lot. The deck appears to be rich in small cards.

The swings are also amazing. During every bonus I've played, ~approx 2000 WR, I've always swung down about -60% of my starting balance and then swung up to +60% of my starting balance and then end up at EV. Really scary.

Next time I play, I will try to gather some stats.
 
I've played the signup and all of the weekly bonuses for the last 3 months. Firstly, I'll say that I have finished above or close to EV on every bonus, so this is not a anti-VC response. I flatbet $2-$3 a hand at single-deck.

The cards at VC are amazing and really frustrate the player. It is not uncommon for the dealer to hit 21 with 6 cards, but having said this, it also happens to the player as well. I have also noticed that the dealer busts when holding a 10 a lot. The deck appears to be rich in small cards.

The swings are also amazing. During every bonus I've played, ~approx 2000 WR, I've always swung down about -60% of my starting balance and then swung up to +60% of my starting balance and then end up at EV. Really scary.

Next time I play, I will try to gather some stats.

Interesting point about the "shoe" being rich with small cards, which would give the dealer a favor.

It'd be interesting to see some stats for that...
 
It is not uncommon for the dealer to hit 21 with 6 cards, but having said this, it also happens to the player as well....The deck appears to be rich in small cards.

The swings are also amazing. During every bonus I've played, ~approx 2000 WR, I've always swung down about -60% of my starting balance and then swung up to +60% of my starting balance and then end up at EV.

I can agree with these two points also. I dont remember any hands playing other major softwares where dealer would have taken 6 or 7 cards to still keep 21 or under. Zero hands in my mind, even though I have played much more with Playtech software than Chartwell. BUT for example from my latest experience from Chartwell BJ I remember several occasions of this happening (wagering $10,000 flat betting $2). As I said, I have only played regular BJ.
 
Nolan (aka23), or anybody who knows well estimation and hypothesis testing in blackjack, I want your opinion. First of all Nolan, I do not understand your calculator results at your webpage, not your drawing of the normal distribution: Can you explain to me what is the value of the greek σ in your drawing, taking the below example?

I checked at Peter Griffin's "The Theory of blackjack" at pages 90-91, and I tried to apply the same method to my results:

First, lets assume that I was flatbetting 1.22$

The value of z which corresponds to the area of the Normal Distribution, is:

z=123-15.14/squareroot of(5607*1.26)= 1.28

where:
123 my losses in units of bankroll = 150.5$/1.22$,
15.14 the expected value (or the expected-average outcome) in units of bankroll, in 5607 hands when opposed with a house edge of 0.27%,
5607 the number of hands,
and 1.26 the variance of a blackjack hand.

Now, this area which corresponds to z=1.28, is the 39.96% of the area of the Normal Distribution. This corresponds to the cases that one would end up losing between 123 and 15.14 units.

To this, we must add the 50% of the area which corresponds to the cases that one would end up with a balance above the average of 15.14 units.

Therefore, the probability that one would lose 123 units or more, is 100-(50%+39.96%)=10.04%

Why (?) does this result differ from the 18.74% risk of ruin
given by the calculator:
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I guess one reason is that the standard deviation per 100 hands I put in this calculator is 11.3, whereas the value of 1.26 (the variance of a blackjack hand) suggests WHAT standard deviation per 100 hands?

But besides that, is my above analysis right? Did I do it all wrong? Where did I do wrong? Opinions PLEASE!
 
I've played the signup and all of the weekly bonuses for the last 3 months. Firstly, I'll say that I have finished above or close to EV on every bonus, so this is not a anti-VC response. I flatbet $2-$3 a hand at single-deck.

The cards at VC are amazing and really frustrate the player. It is not uncommon for the dealer to hit 21 with 6 cards, but having said this, it also happens to the player as well. I have also noticed that the dealer busts when holding a 10 a lot. The deck appears to be rich in small cards.

The swings are also amazing. During every bonus I've played, ~approx 2000 WR, I've always swung down about -60% of my starting balance and then swung up to +60% of my starting balance and then end up at EV. Really scary.

Next time I play, I will try to gather some stats.


If the deck is rich in small cards, I would expect the dealer to bust less often and that should, theoretically, be disadvantageous to the player.
 
So, my results at VC for August up to this moment, are:

hands played=5,607
average bet=1.22$
profit/loss= -150.50$

(I was about -175$ when I had completed about 5,500 hands, I think)

Using the calculator at Old / Expired Link,
the risk of ruin when someone has a bankroll of 150.50$/1.22$=123 units of bankroll after 5607 hands, is 18.74%

Aka23, have you got an idea why the value for the standard deviation in 100 hands at this calculator is set at 27.72 instead of 11.3? Am I doing something wrong?
Average bet size doesn't work well for variance estimations since different ways of composing the average have different overall variance. For example, flat betting $1.22 has a smaller variance than 999 $1 bets followed by a $221 bet, yet both have an average size of $1.22.

Assuming flat bets of $1.22, the return and variance calc on my site, estimates a 9.9% chance of losing $150.50 in 5607 hands. It sucks to lose that much, but its well within normal variance.
 
Why (?) does this result differ from the 18.74% risk of ruin
given by the calculator:
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I don't know how that calc works or if it is even applicable to a negative win rate. I do know how the calc on my site at
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works. To produce the estimate above, I did the following:

1. Enter the loss of 150.5 in the "bonus" box
2. Enter the hands played of 5607 in the "wagering" box
3. Enter the bet size of 1.22 in the bet size box
4. Change the final bet: initial bet ratio to 1 since using hands played, rather than amount wagered
 
So, what is the standard deviation per 100 hands,
providing that the variance of a blackjack hand is 1.26?

Standard deviation = SQRT(variance). If the variance of 1 hand is 1.26 then, the SD of 1 hand is SQRT(1.26) = 1.12 . This sounds low. Wizard of odds and I both estimate a SD per hand slightly above this for typical BJ rules.

In any case the SD of n hands is SQRT(n) * SD for 1 hand. So with a SD per 1 hand of 1.12, the SD of net win/loss per 100 hands is SQRT(100)*1.12 = 11.2
 
Then this other calculator that I used, is wrong in estimating risk of ruin?
It does calculate for negative win rate.
It may produce different results because of card counting assumptions, rather than basic strategy assumptions. For example, card counters often use a varied bet size, rather than a flat bet size. This, of course, influences risk of ruin.
 
:thumbsup:I just found the answer! The "risk of ruin" probability IS NOT the "ending up below expectation" probability. The "risk of ruin" SHOULD BE HIGHER than the "ending up below expectation", as the "risk of ruin" is the probability reaching the point of -123 units for the first time, whereas the "ending up" implies that one has passed that -123 point many times before ending up there. And therefore, it is much more ... lets say "probable" for the bankroll to pass for the first time the -123 point, that to ... pass it many times!

Your answer was wrong, to my question of why there is a difference between these 2 different values of 18.74% and of the 10%.
You implied that they should be the same thing! You even went that far as saying that the difference in these values proves that calculator as wrong!
Strange, as in your site it is clear that you have grasped the difference between these 2.
I made you (unwillingly) to fall into this trap by implying with that question of mine that these two different probabilities should be the same one thing. But if I had grasped the difference, I would not had this question. Anyway, matter solved. And that calculator I used is correct.
 
Now to identify cheating, the more appropriate of these two different probabilities, is the "ending up below expectation" probability, as this refers to a greater number of hands played, i.e. all the hands played.
However, when the experiment is finished when one runs out of money (when the bankroll becomes 0), then these 2 probabilities become the same one thing.
 
You even went that far as saying that the difference in these values proves that calculator as wrong!
I did not say that, nor did I say anything to that effect. I said, "I don't know how that calc works or if it is even applicable to a negative win rate. I do know how the calc on my site..." I stand by this statement. The calculator you linked to is intended to be used with card counting in which the player gains money over time, hence the positive win rate (equivalent to 1.2% player edge). There may be other assumptions related to card counting that are inherent to the calc as well.

Yes, you are correct that "risk or ruin" is not applicable to the situation for different reasons. That is not what we are measuring in this situation, so the calc results aren't expected to match. I missed that earlier, as I did not look at the other calc in detail.
 
I am still doubting if my above formulas are right though. I am trying to use your calculator to verify them, but I still dont understand your calculator. I used your directions, but ...
My calc reports the average gain, range of gain, and chance of making a gain. It is not designed to measure chance of a loss, but this information can be obtained. If you program the bonus size to the size of your loss, then the chance of losing this amount is 1 - chance of gain. The final complication is that you listed the hands played, rather than amount wagered. These two values differ because of splits and doubles. A simple trick to account for this difference is to change the final bet:initial bet ratio from the default to 1.
 
I did what you said, I put 123 at the bonus box, and I get a chance of gain = 0.511. That means a 1-0.511=48.9% to lose 123 units?! Obviously I do something wrong. Should't I get 10%? It also says "expected return"=107.86.
 
I did what you said, I put 123 at the bonus box, and I get a chance of gain = 0.511. That means a 1-0.511=48.9% to lose 123 units?! Obviously I do something wrong. Should't I get 10%? It also says "expected return"=107.86.

You said you lost 150.5, so put that in the bonus box. Change "wagering" to hands played. Change "bet size" to your bet size.
 
The boxes must all be in a common unit.

If this unit is $, then enter it as follows:
Bonus - 150.5
Bet Size - 1.22

If this unit is betting units, then enter it as follows:
Bonus - 150.5/1.22 = 123
Bet Size - 1
 
Here's your calculator and what I put and get:

Bonus: 123
Wagering: 5607
Bet Size: 1
Hands: 5607
House Edge (%): 0.27
Standard Deviation: 1.16
Final Bet: Initial Bet Ratio: 1

And the results it gives:

Expected Return: 107.86
Chance of Gain*: 0.511
1 Standard Deviation: -3777.41 to 3993.13
2 Standard Deviation: -7662.68 to 7878.4

How did you conclude that the probability of ending up with a loss of 123 bets (or greater loss), is 10%?
Also, I dont understand the -3777.41 to 3993.13 and -7662.68 to 7878.4
 
You should only put a value in the hands field if you play multi hand blackjack. You're telling the calculator to calculate the expected results when playing 5607 hands in one round of blackjack, which of course isn't possible, but explains the huge variance reported.
 
I wrote in a previous post:

"...The "risk of ruin" probability IS NOT the "ending up below expectation" probability. The "risk of ruin" SHOULD BE HIGHER than the "ending up below expectation", as the "risk of ruin" is the probability reaching the point of -123 units for the first time, whereas the "ending up" implies that one has passed that -123 point many times before ending up there. And therefore, it is much more ... lets say "probable" for the bankroll to pass for the first time the -123 point, that to ... pass it many times!"

I have to correct this, I made many mistakes in expressing what I meant. This is what I meant:

(In each hand an initial bet of 1 unit of bankroll is wagered)

The risk of ruin probability of losing a bankroll of 123 units (until 5607 hands are played), is not the same thing with the probability of ending up with a loss of at least 123 units (after 5607 hands are played).

When one uses the risk of ruin probability of losing a bankroll of 123 units (until 5607 hands are played), which is 18.74%, what he finds is the probability that the balance will reach a downfall of 123 units. And this means the first time the balance reaches that -123 point.

Whereas the probability of ending up with a balance of -123 units or lower (after 5607 hands are played) , means that BEFORE that happens, the balance MAY HAVE passed from the -123 point either once, or many times.

Therefore the risk of ruin probability of losing a bankroll of 123 units (until 5607 hands are played), is higher than the probability of ending up at a balance of -123 units or below (after 5607 hands are played). Because it is more probable to reach the -123 point only once (until 5607 hands are played), than to pass from the -123 point once or many times (in 5607 hands) before ending up at the -123 point (after 5607 hands are played).

I was confusing these two different probabilities, and that is why I was wondering why the 18.74% result was not the same with the 10% result.
 
the way i understand it with the figures given is that the expectation after 5607 hands of $1 with 123 to start with is 107.86. you are below expectation if after 5607 hands your balance is less than 107.86. the risk of ruin is the likelihood that you would lose the full 123 in those 5607 hands.

and i don't know what all the hooplah is now. i found their games to be fair, albeit somewhat strange in the actual hands produced (dealer rarely holds a ten in the hole, but often draws to a winner). but i broke roughly even every time i played there to earn a bonus. :thumbsup:
 
Just want to chime in and say Chartwell is by far the most streaky blackjack I have ever seen. It is a regular occurence to win or lose 12 bets in 10 hands which are both +/-3SD happenings. The swings are truly sick and not for the faint of heart. I wish there was a way to export the log reports that you can view on the website si I ciuld graph my results.

The swings are not limited to blackjack. I can't count the amount of times I have gone 15 hands in Pai Gow without a victory. I've had sessions where I win 14 games in 100 and others where I've won 40.

Finally, 4 handed VP. In JOB normally when you hold 4 cards to a flush, you will get at least 1 flush a good portion of the time. I had a session the other day where 11 consecutive times I held 4 to a flush and did not make the flush. What are the odds of holding 4 to a flush and missing 44 consecutive times? Astronomical I would think. Later in the session though I held 4 to a straight flush(open ended). I made the straight flush on 3 of the 4 hands, for a nice win.

My long term results are pretty close to expected, probably a little over actually, but it us very odd why I consistently have sessions that fall far away from the expected return.
 
Happygobrokey, I dont know if you really misunderstood this because of the confusion with Nolan's calculator inputs I post in the above post No 41, or if you try to confuse others. These inputs were a copy of Nolan's calculator as I tried to follow his instructions he gave me. Forget about them. I am still confused about Nolan's calculator, but since I prefer to understand the matter in depth, I prefer to do it manually so that I see what exactly I am doing with the normal distribution.
The 123 is not the starting balance - initial bankroll as you implied. The 123 is the loss in units of bankroll after playing 5607 hands. The expected loss was (as you see in a previous post of mine), the value of 15.14 units of bankroll (which perhaps I calculated wronlgy, as I assumed that the initial bet is equal to the final bet, but anyway, the right figure is about the same. In the future I will use the total wagered amount of money to calculate this, a data which I ignored in my previous analysis. So, if I wagered e.g. 6000$, the expected loss is 6000*house edge = 6000*0.27%=16.2$. So, I finished far below "expectation", i.e. far below the average-expected loss.
 
I am forced to give a name to these two different probabilities-methods of prooving cheating:
1.) The one is the “ending up that low or below” which is the hypothesis test using the Normal Distribution I did in a previous post.
2.) And the other is the “risk of ruin” ,which is the application of the risk of ruin formula when it is applicable to prove cheating. The definition of this when is exactly the definition of this second method.

Besides the misconception one might fall (as I did), that made me use the risk of ruin probability where it was not applicable (and got the wrong result of 18.74%), one could also make the below (and I think reverse) misconception:

When one decides to finish taking down the stats at a point where his balance is at the lowest point it was ever observed during the hands of these stats, (e.g. because the balance dropped to zero and he would need to redeposit to continue), then the probability of risk of ruin and of the probability of “ending up that low or below”, are not the same, as one might expect with a first, shallow thought. Why is that?

The probability of “ending up that low or below” presupposes that the number of hands of the sample is not depended on the condition that the player can decide to stop counting his stats when his balance is lower than any other time during the history of these hands. Such an independency is assured when e.g. the number of the hands of the sample is predetermined before the hands start happening, e.g. until meeting a bonus wagering requirement.

Therefore if the player stops counting his stats when his balance is at its lowest point, this creates a bias which makes the probability of “ending up that low or below”, not applicable and false if applied to prove cheating. But in this case, the probability of risk of ruin IS appropriate to use in order to prove cheating! E.g. in the case that one loses all his deposited bankroll, he can claim as a proof of cheating, the very low risk of ruin probability of losing X units of bankroll in Y number of hands (for this I use the calculator
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)

One might claim that the only valid method-probability for proving cheating is the “ending up that low or below”. But I disagree: Suppose one plays 10,000 hands at a game of 0.3% house edge, placing 1$ on each hand. And suppose that the final results do not indicate cheating with more than a 75% certainty, eg. he finally loses only 140$. But before these 10,000 hands were completed, at the 6459th hand his balance had fallen to an amazing -2000$ below the starting balance – initial bankroll (!!!), and after that, it raised back to the point of -140$ below the starting balance, which is not extremely far from expectation. Now the method of “ending up that low or below” ignores that fall of -2000$!!!

Therefore, the risk of ruin probability can also be used for proving cheating, by referring to the lowest point that the account balance (current bankroll) fell below the starting account balace (initial bankroll), or referring to a very large downward swing of the account balance, that it was met somewhere among the history of hands. So, we have 2 weapons to identify cheating by observing the profit/loss data. I think though, that there might be some additional considerations to apply this, and I am still thinking about it. It might have nothing to do with the risk of ruin probability. Oh, yes, that's it: "What is the probability that the bankroll-account balance to have such a large fall from its highest point to its lowest point (a fall which happens in x hands), after playing a total of y hands? (the highest and lowest points observed in y hands)"

You might have ended up close to the expected loss, but still you might have been cheated. How can one investigate this?
 
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“Ending up that low or below” is the probability (or method) for proving cheating e.g. Michael Shackleford used:
“...The difference between actual and expected dealer busts is 149.38-89 = 60.38. This is 60.38/8.84=6.83 standard deviations below expectations. The probability of falling this far or more to the left of the bell curve is 1 in 238 billion...”(
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)

A small comment on Shackleford’s analysis: He and some other analysts used the dealer’s busting rate. But I think that categorizing the possible methods of cheating might miss some other possible methods of cheating (e.g. the dealer getting ten-ten when the player is getting ten-nine) not to mention the method of cheating that small bets win and big bets lose (and that cannot be identified with a flat bet experiment). I am not saying that my experiment of changing the bet between 1$ and 2$ solved this, nor that I did this change for that reason. But I do say that a flat bet experiment observing only the profit/loss made following basic strategy, might be better, as it takes in consideration all possible methods of cheating, except one: the “small bets lose, big bets win” method.

After I wrote the last above paragraph, I read that the return-payoff (profit/loss) results Shackleford had in his sample of 1245 hands, was 95.7%, something which was absolutely “within expectations” and in no case indicated cheating (as the casinobar representative argues and Shackleford agrees), whereas the dealer’s busting rate indicated cheating with an enormous statistical significance (100% minus 1 in 238 billion), by observing a sample as small as of 332 hands, and which sample was a sub-sample of the same 1245 hands sample! So I wonder, we shouldn’t examine the return (profit/loss) but only the busting rate, as this proves cheating much more effectively and revealingly? So, my above arguments are wrong? The dealer’s busting rate is the best indicator, and the return-payoff (profit/loss) stats are relatively useless? But if this the case, I wonder how is it possible that so extremelly low dealer busting rates did not create a statistically significant departure in his return (profit/loss) results from the expected loss. Does the casino have to cheat that much in the busting rates in order to earn that little? Or did he get lucky in all other respects of the game (e.g. he was getting ten-ten when the dealer was getting ten-nine)? If a casino has to cheat that much regarding one variable only, e.g. the busting rates, to generate only a little return, that shows its inability to cheat in all other variables of the game?

I know I am getting more and more difficult to grasp, but I cannot make more understandable what I mean in a short time and in a short text (those unfamiliar with estimation and hypothesis testing of the Normal Distribution will not grasp most of this)
 
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shackleford knew when preparing the experiment that he was looking for this. as you said yourself there are other ways of rigging the cards. and only because the results were astronomically biased did he require such a small sample. if the dealer had been busting closer to the expected rate, then obviously it would take more data to prove a more subtle rig. i mean, when your data shows a 1 in 238 billion already, there's no need to continue because obviously your stats are not all random variance.

and i don't know what you were saying in that post you made with the small typeface. it seemed to me you were having trouble with the expected loss and risk of ruin, so i tried to offer a simple explanation to help out. but i guess your calculations are far beyond my comprehension (15.14=123-107.86 btw, so i was perfectly correct about the expected loss). and in that scenario, the "risk of ruin" taking 123 to be the full bankroll would be equal to the chance of being down that much (albeit if you had more than this 123 then you could keep playing if you had not completed the 5607 hands in the test and get some back). aka's calculator is meant to take the value of the bonus money and predict how much of it on average you stand to lose, and the "risk of ruin" would correspond to losing the whole bonus, but does not factor in the additional money that is the deposit.

i definitely don't try to confuse people or whatever you said, but indeed i try to help those who seem confused. i was genuinely offering my simple, concise take on what i thought the issue between your's and aka's understanding was. and if i'm not mistaken you asked aka what the "sigma" symbol stood for, but considering your skill with the normal distribution, you should know all about sigma being the standard deviaton and sigma squared, the variance. the question then, is how many sigmas down is the event of losing 123 when the mean expectation is to lose 15.14? so sorry i mistook you for being the confused one, apparently it is i who lacks knowledge on the subject and should just shut up so you can complete your calculations. but you did post here on a forum for help and ideas, forgive me for trying to contribute.

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