i need legal advice about an online casino

**dreamtheatre** · 19th August 2006, 09:55 PM

i have applied my bank concerning unauthorized withdrawals from my credit card by an online casino about two months ago. the bank reversed the withdrawals and i was a happy man. the amount in question was $6.600

but now my bank calls me and tells that i have to pay this sum plus an interest because the online casino's bank admits that the withdrawals were indeed unauthorized but they(the casino) had already paid back them to my credit card. At first i could not understand what the bank clerk was talking about. Then it became clear.

My actual winnings at this casino were close to the withdrawals made by this casino and i had always withdrawn my winnings to the same credit card. I tried to explain to the bank clerk that those were my winnings i had earned in this casino by playing poker against other casino members (not against the casino but other members) but she insists that i have to pay . she says there is no way i can prove that these are my winnings . as far as the bank is concerned unauthorized withdrawals were made but then returned.

Do i have a legal case ? If i win at an online casino can they withdraw the amount that i have won and i cant do anything. Would appreciate any help.

Thanks.

**winbig** · 19th August 2006, 10:24 PM

If you can prove that your deposits + winnings were indeed ~$13k (where they should be....d+w), then I think you would have a case.....If not in court, then to prove to the bank.

I guess you don't have access to this casino/poker room anymore? That really would make it hard; unless you can get all of your transaction history from them.

**vinylweatherman** · 19th August 2006, 10:39 PM

The best way would seem to be to establish an audit trail for the money. Depositing from the bank and receiving on the card similar amounts does not necessarily prove the bank's case. What is more important is whether the money taken from the bank, authorised or not, made it to your casino account and/or poker accounts, and contributed to the money that went back to the card.
If the software has any kind of statement facility, such as Microgaming Cashcheck, I would suggest obtaining ALL the records from a while before the incidents in question to the current time, at which point you should clean out the casino and poker accounts such that they have a zero balance to act as a reference point. Since the casino seem to have wronged you, you should then quit playing, but do not let them know that you are investigating this till you have got all the records you are likely to need.

With records of deposits from bank to casino, casino to card, and your bank statement itself, it should be possible to trace each separate sum of money through the system, and see if at the end of it you have money missing.
If the bank statement shows a withdrawal to the casino, but the casino statement does not show a corresponding deposit of the amount for you to play, then it can easily be established that the funds returned to the card are not the funds that came from the bank, but funds that were generated from either winnings, or other deposits.

If you have the money, and the bank is asking for it back, it is up to the bank to prove the case that the money returned to the card is the money taken from the bank. Depending on where the casino is regulated, they can be pursued by the bank, yourself, or both.

One option could be to change banks, and let the bank fight the case. It depends on how the Turkish system works. In the UK, a bank could "confiscate" money from another account you have with them to offset their grievance (this happened to a friend of mine). If you have the money elsewhere, the bank cannot do this, and they will be the ones that have to pursue the matter.

If you can show that the casino is at fault, then try pitching a bitch to Bryan with the evidence. He may be able to extract account records that will help track the money. Sometimes this can happen where players deposit at a casino, but the casino takes ages to collect the money from the bank or card. This confuses the player, and is a neat defence for the errant casino to try to hide behind. This is why I suggested going further back in the records, even to the point of joining the casino if within the last couple of years.
I have had deposits hit my bank nearly a month after the deposits at the casino. I did just as I have suggested here, and was able to marry them all together, and show that in my case the casino had not actually had too much in the end.

**dreamtheatre** · 20th August 2006, 08:22 AM

the casino has closed my account long ago so i cannot get anything from them.

i talked with the credit card rep. of the bank personally. She said that there are about 100 cases similiar to mine concerning the same casino . So i am not alone and their policy is to subtract the winnings from the unauthorized withdrawals and if the withdrawals exceed the winnings return the difference to the credit card owner.

In my case the winnings and the withdrawals are close tyo each other. But there is another case where the wihdrawals in the last 3 months is about 50.000 dollars while the winnings are about 18.000 dollars . Although the bank returned 50k to this man(whom i personally know) in the beginning now they want 18k back.

The bank rep. insists that they believe i am right. and she is on my side(which i doubt). but she says there is nothing to do because the casino's bank wants the money back. and according to visa card rules i have to pay it back.

**winbig** · 20th August 2006, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by dreamtheatre

i talked with the credit card rep. of the bank personally. She said that there are about 100 cases similiar to mine concerning the same casino .

So how about naming this casino so others can stay away at all costs?!

**bossplayer** · 20th August 2006, 06:51 PM

She said that there are about 100 cases similiar to mine concerning the same casino .

Yep, definitely need to know the casino name on this one.... seems very strange.

**frufrugirl** · 20th August 2006, 08:33 PM

This does seem strange - unauth withdrawl of xx.xx dollars....reverse of withdrawl back into account is xx.oo? How can the bank be saying apples are oranges? This bank should be on alert and investigating the casino with withdrawl/deposit blocks..100 is a high amount of unauthorized withdrawls and the amounts sound like they arnt peanuts..
Hopefully all your old accounts are closed and new ones elsewhere opened...good advice from Vinylweatherman about records-

I do have one suggestion though..now that the bank is demanding that you pay them..your personal assets maybe in danger. Obtaining the records in a timely manner maybe critical, you may want to obtain a lawyer to write a letter to the casino asking for records to substantiate their demands for payment if they are not responding immediately to your own requests for them. Also send a copy of this letter to the bank so they know you are taking action regarding the their request for funds!

Going to Bryan would be excellent for obtaining records but I dont think it would calm the bank. A letter from a lawyer to the bank stating a third party is investigating the matter and requesting records may help if you decide to go with Bryan and his posse first. He sure has a good track record!

This is just my personal opinion from personal experience with creditors and identify theft...

Best wishes to you..

**winbig** · 20th August 2006, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by frufrugirl

100 is a high amount of unauthorized withdrawls and the amounts sound like they arnt peanuts..

I would almost bet the banker was pulling a number out of her ass when she said 100 just to make it sound like this was a big problem....A nice way of saying that they couldn't/wouldn't devote time to investige the charges to his account. I'd almost bet they're thinking along the lines that they've got a better chance of getting the money from him rather than the casino.

PS: Is this the fallout from the problems you had at kaave?

**frufrugirl** · 20th August 2006, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by winbig

I would almost bet the banker was pulling a number out of her ass when she said 100 just to make it sound like this was a big problem....A nice way of saying that they couldn't/wouldn't devote time to investige the charges to his account. I'd almost bet they're thinking along the lines that they've got a better chance of getting the money from him rather than the casino.

True....100 was more than likely random but may be representative of complaints regarding the Casino..All Im saying is you dont mess around with bank when they are demanding payment..protect yourself by keeping them informed. (keep your enemies close)
This situation happened to me here in the us with a online company. My account was debited randomly..to this day I still have no way of knowing how they got my account number..but..after demanding records from the company (to no avail) a letter from my lawyer (it shut the bank up) and a few hundred new complaints coming in..the bank finally blocked transactions from this company and launched a criminal investigation like they should have done in the first place. My account was finally credited the amount due but it still rankles me that the bank left the investigation to me in the beginning. I had a home loan , car loan and other accounts with this bank and I didnt want to have this payment affect my credit rating or loan status.

I have had other problems with identify theft and have long learned to create a paper trail to cover my behind. Telephone conversations are useful for conversation documentation but arnt worth poo when it gets down to proof..you need to get promises in writing!!

**dreamtheatre** · 21st August 2006, 07:08 AM

i did not name the casino because it is a local (Turkish) online casino and you are very unlikely to play there. The name of the casino is kaave.com. It is already in the rogue list on Casinomeister and has F- rating pokerreview.com.

there is a local website for ex kaave.com members in my position so i can acknowledge that there are more than 250 applications to Turkish banks concerning kaave.com. My bank is the biggest bank in Turkey so it is normal
that there are about 100.

i agree that the bank finds it easier to take the funds from me rather than the casino's bank. So i withdrew all my funds from this bank But the bank says that they will write the amount in question(6600 dollars) to my credit card as a debt and they will start legal activities if i dont pay. i am determined to find a lawyer but i talked to a few lawyers and all of them said that they were very unfamiliar with the matter and could not comment on the chance of my success.

The bank says that kaave.com has sent them their records. But i believe the bank clerks are trying to make me say things i should not say. They made me send them a written statement telling that i indeed was a member of kaave.com and the deposits to my card were my actual winnings. And a lawyer i talked with said that i should not have done this.

I will appreciate any advice . I am concentrating on posts where legal advice is written .I am reading all the posts daily and very carefully . Thanks everybody.