What on earth is happening to the online casino industry?

[TheBloke]

In the past 2-3 months, we have seen:

• Grand Prive rogued for allowing an underage user to play at all their casinos
• Casino-On-Net rogued for spam/site theft
• Jackpot Factory rogued for predatory and irresponsible marketing
• English Harbour caught dealing an unfair game
• Belle Rock found to be rejecting ID documents without explanation and requiring unreasonable extra certification which they then also reject

All of these were (previously) reputable and reliable groups, and all of them have dragged their reputations through the mud very recently.

What is happening to this industry? This is a time when casinos should be pulling out all the stops to prove themselves honest, lest the whole industry collapses under the weight of the US anti-gambling bill.

Instead we are seeing a string of public debacles that make the industry as a whole seem like a joke. Anyone looking for ammunition in the fight against online casinos would need look no further than the Casinomeister complaints forum for the past couple of months. Goodlatte et al must be rubbing their hands in glee at the stupidity of all these operators.

Is this just a coincidence? Or is competition hotting up so much that they feel they have to use any trick to get ahead? I would love to hear from any 'industry insiders' who might be able to shed light on whether these recent events are part of a greater trend, or whether it is just unfortunate that all of these groups have shown their true colours at the same time.

[soflat]

I think some of those have been ongoing problems that are just coming out in the open now.

[Pinababy69]

What an absolutely great post The Bloke, and a topic certainly worthy of discussion. I'd also love to hear anyone's viewpoints on why all of this is happening.

[Simmo!]

I think some of the "old-timers" will probably argue that things are a lot better now than they used to be What we're seeing at the moment, IMO, is casinos in a very competitive field trying to get an advantage. And yes, I know some of the tactics employed are "dubious" at best!

But, also, it's a young industry and everything will probably happen once. Let's just hope with the exposure it is only "once". That's how new industries develop...by learning from experience.

I also think that the US and UK and developed countries are partly responsible for not providing a framework of legislation and forcing the industry "offshore". While smaller territories like Gibraltar are perhaps more forward-thinking, they also find themeselves trying to cope with a multi-billion $ industry in its formative years. "Prohibition" in the US will only exacerbate the situation, while the UK at least are looking to provide this framework in the near future.

Interestingly, you'll probably notice that the "big issues" tend not to come from "brands" like the big old Bookmaking brands. Sure they are still learning and make mistakes, but you will never get a Jackpot Factory style issue or an "888" issue at Ladbrokes, Victor Chandler, Coral, Tote, William Hill or Littlewoods for example - in my opinion at least. The closest you'll get is a Bella Vegas which is as much down to software controls and practical issues rather than ethical or "blackhat" standpoints. And this partly comes from the tight regulation they are subject to and more importantly, are used to working within.

Finally, I think many people would be shocked - or pehaps not - at what goes on in the world of big business and politics. Stuff there, were it all to be as publically broadcast to this audience, would make the issues we are seeing pale into insignificance! Or maybe we have simply accepted that it happens through media saturation and forget the fact.

Just my thoughts - great subject by the way TB

Simmo!

[TheBloke]

Very good points Simmo. I agree that these issues are probably inevitable, and also probably mostly coincidental in timing.

It's just such a shame that all of this is happening at the worst possible time.

That said, I think it quite likely that Goodlatte and his cronies probably never find out about any of these situations. I suspect they did no research beyond looking at top line numbers, and that probably continues to this day. So hopefully these sort of issues - whilst seeming very big to us - are actually not making much of a difference to the chances of the legislation passing or not.

Nonetheless, there is still a risk that they do get reported outside of the gambling community, and regardless of their effect on the bill they are still very serious in their own right.

I do hope some good will come of this, and the operators realise that they can't continue to screw over their players and the community in such a visible way. Certainly, as you say, this sort of corruption will never go away entirely, but hopefully we can reach a point where at least the individual user can be relatively certain he is not going to be messed with.

Also, and at the risk of throwing yet more fuel on this smouldering fire - I note that all but one (EH) of the list above are eCOGRA approved. Let's also hope that they grow some teeth and actually start addressing the prevalent problems in the industry before someone else addresses them for us, and not in the way we would want.

[Simmo!]

Originally Posted by TheBloke

Certainly, as you say, this sort of corruption will never go away entirely, but hopefully we can reach a point where at least the individual user can be relatively certain he is not going to be messed with.

Those who are truly corrupt will eventually be found out. But not before we have casualties along the way. But I think a lot of what we see isn't corruption as such, just poor decisions, a lack of control, or badly misjudged techniques. Or turning a blind eye to situations they have been placed in until it inevitably bites them in the butt. It's equally important, 888 case in point, that the casinos are *seen* to be doing the right thing as much as they are *actually* doing it if they are to remain competitive and respected.

I also think that some players contribute to a number of the issues faced, whether it be knowingly or not. That's not to say the vast majority, but a minority. Sometimes it's down to being ill-informed, but often it's down to sheer human greed - let's call it "competitiveness" And the minority cause the majority to suffer in many instances. So while the casinos themselves are the only ones in a realistic position to change the landscape, they will always be up against the less ethical punter.

And the sheer nature of the business means there will always be an element of Them Vs. Us. That's just how it always has been, always will be. That's gambling - two entities trying to gain from the other Plus the vocal "moral minority" who feel gambling is bad for everyone will always be out there digging away. Personally, I'd like to see their efforts to change the world focused on getting Bush to particpate in the Kyoto agreement which has far more wide-reaching consequences than gambling! But that's not going to happen. Oh look...we're back round to "greed" again

[vinylweatherman]

The worst thing about the BelleRock case is that the the casino is answerable to no-one once eCogra take their side. The player has no means of appeal, and is even prohibited from understanding the causes of the problems, hardly helpful if all they have done is made a silly mistake because they don't have a degree in computer science in order to determine whether they are themselves or the reincarnation of another player as far as cyberspace is concerned.

I suspect that if we find out what is behind all these "documentation" issues, and allowed to make our own minds up we would be scared away from playing. It is arrogant for BelleRock to assume that what they see is evidence of bad faith or fraud by the player, rather than consider the possibility that it is a great big misunderstanding all round, easily corrected once out in the open.

The other cases are more to do with taking a hard business approach to running the casino. The type of approach they object to when their players try it with bonuses!

Big business frequently makes such mistakes, and customers can write and phone till they are blue in the face, but once the company has decided that they owe money, pulled a stunt etc. they refuse to listen to reason. One only has to see how often casinos keep "losing the E-mails" from players once their is an issue.

As the industry matures, it WILL get out into the broader public. BBC TV "Watchdog" have already laid into Paypal, and exposed eBay for shafting it's customers through the very mechanisms that are supposed to protect them. eBay also have a habit of ignoring E-mails, and don't allow alternative means of communication. Online POKER was mentioned this season, this is VERY close indeed to doing an article on casinos, it's a matter of WHEN, rather than IF, and with the UK being saturated with adverts now I expect there are already players writing to consumer programmes as they are so new they are unaware of Casinomeister, or what a "seal" is, or is not, when on a website.

All this bad publicity makes it harder to convince new players that their money is secure, and more important, that they really will get paid when they beat the house on occasion, without the forensic examination into reasons why payment should not be made.

If anyone is interested, the trigger point for BBC Watchdog is about 100 complaints of substance, they can be made through the website on the BBC, and the new season is in the Autumn, just a few months before the provisions that cover remote gaming (online casinos etc) come into force.

[Slotster!]

Great points Simmo... It's interesting that the 32RED management team hail mainly from established and respected gambling names in the UK - backs up your theory beautifully!

[Vesuvio]

This was always an unregulated industry, but the silver lining was that sites like Casinomeister were taken seriously. Now we seem to be on the verge of casinos considering them an irrelevance. They don't feel the need to respond to issues and assume that any amount of bad press will have a negligible effect on their business (more than outweighed by the extra profits their policies bring in).

Judging by Bellerock and Casino On Net the casinos now feel comfortable that eCOGRA will simply back them up even if they're just invoking the "we can do whatever we like" clause.

Simmo, you're right about the UK bookmaking brands. They actually do care about their reputation, not to mention the fact that they make enough money to have learnt that it's counterproductive to cheat their players just to cream off some extra profit.

[Simmo!]

Originally Posted by Vesuvio

This was always an unregulated industry, but the silver lining was that sites like Casinomeister were taken seriously. Now we seem to be on the verge of casinos considering them an irrelevance.

I think there are quite a number of casinos who take the views expressed here, in the main, pretty seriously. The ones that are trying to be above board and act honestly at least. Or they at least read and digest.

Although I've noticed recently that the site does seem to be attracting more players who see public forums as a means to blackmail a casino, which obviously doesn't help any of us - players, casinos or the perception of the industry. That said, they're not usually tricky to spot and I think most people see them for what they are.

And I'd always feel safe in the hands of an established Bookmaker running an online casino. Doesn't mean their support or service are always up with the smaller independents mind! But that's the all-important "brand image" for you.

Of course conversely, it takes a clever team to stop the brand from growing to the point where it's success is resented. Over here, the more a brand succeeds, the more people want to knock it. Microsoft found that. And now Google are starting to see it. Fickle lot we are eh