What on earth is happening to the online casino industry?

[The Watchdog]

I believe that what is happening is that during the last years a lot of people have learned that this has become a very lucrative business, so anyone with some extra bucks in his pocket, an it guy and some guy pretending to know about marketing can run an online gambling business.

This has caused the industry to grow so much, that now we are over flooded with non-professional operations and scammers on every corner.

I am not saying the casinos mentioned on the first post belong to this group, may be they just slipped on some things, but is amazing how the industry has grown over the last 3-4 years.

Now days is very easy to find casinos offering amazing bonuses, fast payouts, excellent service but probably only 5% of all the online gambling sites are really making an effort to keep their customers satisfied and focusing on providing a better product every day.

[mitch]

It's not all doom and gloom out there.

Same as Simmo said I have always been paid by every casino I have ever played at. Never been messed about even, apart from some casinos seeking ID before payment.

If you get the right casino and build up a good relationship with them they can really look after you well.

As an example I am flying to Germany in a couple of weeks time for a few days staying in one of Germanys top hotels and getting a fully hosted VIP hospitality package for the World Cup. All this courtesy of the casino.

This is just one of many fantastic events that have been offered to me over the last year. These offers are on top of £20,000 worth of Match bonuses offered during the same period.

The good casinos will surely rise to the top in this business.
Rip off merchants cannot survive for ever against those that provide the customer service that players will come to expect in what is still a new and developing business.

Mitch

[Slotster!]

It's not all doom and gloom out there.
As an example I am flying to Germany in a couple of weeks time for a few days staying in one of Germanys top hotels and getting a fully hosted VIP hospitality package for the World Cup. All this courtesy of the casino.


Mitch

Hmmm.. Which casino is this exactly!?? I think I need to play there!!!

[caruso]

I'd say that I feel safe at *most* Microgaming casinos, in the sense that I know I will get paid and the games are fair. But I don't generally do bonuses, which obviously makes life a lot lot easier...I don't take bonuses and I tend to play at Microgaming and Cryptologic casinos.

All these Microgaming issues, apart from Jackpot Factory, revolve around bonuses. Of course casinos don't create problems for slot junkies. Casinos don't like bonus players. Here's the difference: Intercasino, no less liking of them that Trident / Bellerock / Jackpot Factory / Grand Privè, didn't ever try to screw one. Time was, neither did these Microgamings. This has now changed. And, into this bonus-orientated melting pot, we can now add the disgusting marketing tactics of Jackpot Factory. Now mix in the ever more apparent fact that eCOGRA will basically find for the casino by default (evidence of Cassava and Bellerock).

I don't trust Microgaming anymore. I haven't trusted Cassava for some time. I don't trust their "regulator".

If you trust them, that's the different perspective of a slot-playing affiliate. Other people will make up their own minds, from their own perspectives.

[Vesuvio]

I have always been paid by every casino I have ever played at. Never been messed about even, apart from some casinos seeking ID before payment.

Touch wood, Mitch - I could say that until Bellerock a couple of weeks ago...

[Pinababy69]

I have always been paid by every casino I have ever played at. Never been messed about even, apart from some casinos seeking ID before payment.

Mitch

So have I Mitch. I've had a couple of small stumbling blocks and delays, but nothing major. But you know what? I'm getting to the point where I really am scared to play anywhere but 32Red. I've played nowhere else but there for probably three months now. But that's it, I'm down to one casino.

And I sure as hell don't even feel comfortable referring a player to any casinos, save 2 or 3, where at the very least I'm sure I could help them if they did run into problems.

[Linus]

I echo the basic sentiment of the thread, with the small caveat that it hardly comes as a surprise to me. Microgaming is held as the general standard to which other providers should be judged, yet in the space of six months we've had some of the biggest groups - Grand Privè, Jackpot Factory, Bellerock and Trident - pulling stunts ranging from unacceptably irritating to downright diabolical and absolute worthy of casino roguedom. These groups represent a substantial chunk of that particular provider's stable. These are the "best".

I'm curious what casinos you think are reputable.

My list includes 32Red and Intercasino. I'm curious whether you agree with that, and which others belong on the list.

From a player's perspective, the future looks very bleak: most Microgaming casinos can be trusted no more; almost NO Playtechs can be, and the same can be said for RTG. There is a handful of acceptable smaller providers - Net Entertainment, Wagerworks - covering casinos you can practically count on one hand. Of the other big players, Cassava are now tainted with the site-scraping issue and player non-payment "bonus abuse" issues. The casino arm of PartyGaming seems almost the best of the bunch (LOOOOOOL, iGlobalMedia - go figure ) - but are their casinos patronised much? And then, they have several casino software "glitch" issues that they have totally failed to respond to. Why? For the same reason these other groups are now moving over to the dark side - because they can; they consider themselves big enough to weather any storm. And they're right. They pretty much ARE big enough to be able to withstand the occasional forum battering, particularly since many of these now have eCOGRA fighting their corner.

From what I've seen, there are more than a few poker players who are willing to gamble it up at the Party casino - sometimes losing thousands at a time. Given the size of their player base, I'm guessing their casino is very profitable. I don't know how many people play there, though.

To anyone asking my advice about the viability of entering the online gambling scene now, I would advise them to stay far away. Even with the obvious adherent advantages to be had online gambling, the risks are now quite phenomenal.

When you say, "entering the online gambling scene," are you talking about players or operators/affiliates?

What advantages are you talking about?

[vinylweatherman]

If they are unable to convince players that all these problems are caused by a justified response to a rogue player, how are regular players to know that they won't become a victim of such issues.

Currently, I have been asked more than once for documents by several reputable (or formerly reputable) casinos. How can I be sure that when I resubmit the same documents as earlier they won't suddenly find some "inconsistency" with them. There seems no way for a player to have a once and for all validation at a given casino, it is always ongoing. So far, I have always been paid in the end, except by one notorious RTG!

I recall a couple of cases where Palace Group gave a player trouble with an "inconsistency", in this case, the rep found that the cause was an error on their part, they had simply mixed his data with that from another player with similar details, and the system flagged possible duplicate account issues.
With BelleRock, could we just have one employee stating to his bosses, "these documents don't look right", and the security juggernaut is set in motion, and nothing will stand in it's way, not even common sense.
While this player has just not been paid, people have spent years of their lives in jail due to blunders, and can not get anyone to listen to their protestations of innocence.

The most recent case of some noteriety in the UK was Prof Meadows and his "personal crusade" on his theories of "shaken baby syndrome". There have been several appeal court aquitals, compensation payments, and a system finally prepard to accept that one man and his theories are NOT irrefutable evidence of a criminal act having taken place. After this, we had "experts" in Scotland making wrong determinations based on fingerprint analysis, and were accused of trying to cover up rather than seeing justice done to those affected (the truth is still not out on this one!).

I am quite capable, therefore, of believing that even a big company will attempt to whitewash over a mistake to save it's image rather than admit to a monumental blunder having taken place.

Now, when I am asked for documents I am going to think "Oh S***, am I going to have trouble here", rather than "Oh well, a necessary formality, better get it over with, and all should be OK".

[caruso]

I'm curious what casinos you think are reputable. My list includes 32Red and Intercasino. I'm curious whether you agree with that, and which others belong on the list.

Actually, yeah: Intercasino. iNetBet (next to Intercasino at the top). I'm not a fan of 32Red for reasons I've gone into often. All Net Entertainment casinos (NEVER a complaint in their entire history), I think all WagerWorks casinos are fine. Playtech has a small reputable handful, but none I would be comfortable recommending after the "reputable" Acropolis started pulling stunts a while back.

Not much of a list. Intercasino and iNetBet, both almost 100% clean, and with good games and good comp programmes.

When you say, "entering the online gambling scene," are you talking about players or operators/affiliates?

Players. For operators and affiliates, it's going to be Cash City Central.

What advantages are you talking about?

Just bog-standard online casino advantage play. Frankly, it beats the hell out of me why anyone with a head fixed approximately on their shoulders would play for any other reason. Always baffled me. Always will do.

[greedygirl]

So you think that while Congress has pending bills to ban online gaming totally that major US corporations are in development? I know something too, that your statement is a little hard to believe. Especially when you hint at secret info that you are privy to. If you knew something then share it.

Marcy--I think you're a bit naive here.

There's a bit of a history lesson here, so sorry if I bore anyone...

Going back to the summer, previous to the Trade Center bombings, Nevada had voted to move forward with online gambling for the land-based properties. Following the vote, things moved to the Nevada legislature to sort out the odds and ends--things were looking quite good. The land-based casinos had their software in the ready and were anxious to get moving.

Then 9/11 happened--everything changed. Due to the overall climate in the US (helped by the ridiculous McCarthy-esque Patriot Act), all movement within the Nevada legislature regarding online gaming was dropped. The Patriot Act all but prevented things from going further.

With that, Hard Rock and MGM decided to take things into their own hands by spending over $10million each to become one of only a handfull of casinos to license through the Island of Man (IOM). The IOM seemed like a great way to go, as they have the stiffest policies for their licensees--everything would have to be aboveboard. Great as this may be, however, there was to be one stipulation--IOM would not permit Hard Rock and MGM to allow US players (even if they had, though, it would never have flown with Nevada Gaming laws for the land-based counterparts). As a result, MGM and Hard Rock never gained solid footing, as they were marketing to countries where their land-based brand names had no brand recognition, whatsoever. With high licensing fees, etc., these casinos never had a chance.

In the case of Harrah's, they recently attempted a fairly goofy stab at opening up a bingo site in the UK. Harrah's is now the largest land-based operator in the world and they have plans to build land-based properties in the UK. In theory the move to test Harrah's in the UK would seem brilliant, due to the UK's move to regulation. Unfortunately, it was not great software, the marketing of the site was not organized and things fell apart quickly.

For the future, don't count MGM and Hard Rock out. Moreover, Harrah's is likely to have the greatest impact of any US land-based operator. Because they have a huge interest in traditional land-based casinos AND Indian gaming (Indian gaming has been using their deep-pockets in an effort to lobby against online gaming), Harrah's is something of the "great white hope" to affect a change on US policy. They're the only Indian gaming-involved entity pushing for online regulation, plus they have their interest in the UK market, which the US will be greatly influenced by.

Beyond all this, you can be certain that just about every major land-based casino in Vegas is poised with software, marketing plans, and big money to be ready for the moment when they can do so in a legal environment.

Sorry if anyone fell asleep while reading this--you probably needed a good nap anyhow. <grin>