Western Union

[duke7123]

To all of you that I have heard from I wish to thank you for the kindness that you have shared. I and my attorney's in have completed all of the Western Union problems as it relates to me. I have signed their aggrement that I will not use their services to send funds to gamble with. I am able now to receive and send just like before. To that end I have had several email back and fourth with the casino in ? However they have only elected to stall! They will not even own up to the fact that they were wrong in what they were doing and even after my attorney's received all of the information from the location. I was asked again to send them before I post on here what they were doing and I have even done that out of respect and what I thought was the right thing? However they have made "NO" effort to admit what they did was wrong and I have all of the emails from Western Union and Fexco, Firstdatacorp etc. So I hope that they will reply to me and step up to the plate and admit they were wrong so that all can see what they were doing.

I like Pinababy69 comment: I know you can't fight greed, it's one of the seven deadly sins, and sadly human nature. But at what point does money override all other moral and ethical considerations?
Thanks to all again for your public and private help!

Duke

[path]

I thank Duke7123 for his continued posts concerning Western Union.

32Red were allowing Western Union as a payment option and have recently decided to drop it, as the service that we were receiving wasn’t in keeping with our own reputation for a fast and efficient service on the payments front.

It is disappointing to hear that Duke7123 thinks that we have been stalling on any responses to him. I am sure that you can all appreciate that we do need time to review and answer allegations that are put our way. This I believe we have done in both a fair and timely manner. Equally, I think that it is only right that we deal with the questions raised on an individual basis rather than in any public forum.

That said there are a number of general issues raised that I would like to answer.

The acceptance of Western Union as a payment option was only adopted as a direct response to a number of requests that we received from a small number of our existing players. At no time have we attempted to publicise its availability and at no time have we tried to incentivise its use.


The service that we offered was via a Western Union agent here in Gibraltar and we, as indeed are they, adamant about the legality of the service that we offered. Western Union state that their service cannot be used for any ‘illegal internet gambling’; we are not offering an internet gambling service that is illegal. Indeed we are licensed by our Government. This issue is testing greater minds than mine and my colleagues here at 32Red; you only need to look at the recent activities of Goodlatte and Leach in the US to see what a complex issue that this is. WU is an accepted form of payment across a number of gaming operators of which some are set up directly as receiving agents for WU.

We did experience problems with the service that we offered back in March this year and a number of our players were affected at this time. Thankfully these problems were short lived and none of our players involved suffered financially as a result. We were accommodating in our approach to those that had funds locked in the system and ensured that they were not out of pocket as a result. In Duke’s situation we did agree that he could use his wife to send funds to his account. We may have been naïve to allow this ( no sorry, I may have been naïve to allow this) but it was done with his express permission. I can assure that it was not done in any attempt to deceive WU as to the origin and destination of funds but was done so as to allow Duke to continue to play with 32Red. If we have transgressed WU policy in the 5 times that deposits have been made this way then I can only apologise for this. As to ensuring the validity of the person sending funds, it is my understanding that photo Id needs to be supplied in this location by the person sending the funds.

Up until 28/2/06 we had a link on our site to the WU homepage. This was placed so that any player wishing to use this service could easily find their local agents. Anybody clicking on this link would have seen the relevant Terms and Conditions of the service, namely that it cannot be used for the purposes of ‘illegal internet gambling’. As I have stated before, we are not an illegal internet gambling site.

Thanks for letting me put our side of events across and I would ask Duke to deal with me directly if he still has any unanswered concerns. Without sounding too repetitive, I think that it is only right that we deal with the questions raised on an individual basis rather than in any public forum.

Thanks
Pat

[duke7123]

All I can say at this point is that I will allow them to deal with me on a personal basis. Having said that remember that there are always 3 sides to a story and not one or 2 but the truth?

Thanks Pat

Duke

[Pinababy69]

LOL....I had a pretty good feeling that the casino Duke was talking about was 32Red. I thought they were the only Micro that took WU, but as I later found out Ladbroke's does as well.

So Duke, is this what all the cryptic postings and innuendo were about? My God, what a scandal!! You've had your WU privileges reinstated as you yourself stated was YOUR objective. So you've accomplished what you set out to do. I don't really see there's any other issue is there? I'm just going on what you posted yourself.

In regards to the casino accepting a WU transfer in your wife's name, by their own admission, I guess they shouldn't have done that. And I'd lay a bet they're wishing they hadn't. I had thoughts on that as well after some of your first posts Duke. I know in certain instances, a casino will allow a wife or husband to make a deposit using their spouse's credit card, providing written permission is supplied. Is this that much different?

And Duke, I have to ask, the casino mentions that any players affected by the mixups with WU in March were compensated for any funds locked out by WU. Were you one of those players? And did you indeed receive compensation? From my own personal experience, if I had to hazard a guess, I'd say you were not only compensated the money out of pocket, but a bonus thrown on top as well. I think anyone who plays regularly at 32Red will back up my statement, that they are very generous in comping their players who have any problems of any sort.

If this is the worst thing that 32Red ever does, they still have my business for a long, long time. And Duke, if you ever hear of them buying a child to name, or using sleazy marketing techniques like claiming that playing slots cures breast cancer, depression, thoughts of suicide etc., let me know. You will have a firm advocate in your corner. Until then, big stink about nothing, IMO.

[duke7123]

Pinababy69 as you can see it was not me that gave 32Red's name and that they meaning Pat Harrison posted his side of what is only a portion of the entire story as it relates to Western Union. However I can see that you are not one willing to accept another side of the story and in fact the complete truth. Moreover as I indicated that there are 3 sides to every story and even Pat asked that we leave this on a personal basis. However you have decided that they are 100% in the right and that is with all due respect wrong! To place the 100% in aggrement with just 32Red's reply I think is very wrong and that maybe you should have be in touch with my attorney's and not me. I will post all of the findings as soon as I receive a reply from Pat as he has asked. Then I will put on here everything thing including a email from UK Western Union which will show that they indeed do not allow any "Goods, Services, or monies transfered either via online or walk in agents for any gambling purposes and that is their policy. It was my understanding that I was sending funds to 32Red and its employees, until I had a call from Pat and he stated that they did not worked for 32Red that they were a service and collected the funds and then passed along to 32Red. So don't be so quick to take one side of the story. I will post all that we have learned about 32Red and its manner in which it was in fact using Western Union and or its affiliates.

Regards,

Duke

[Pinababy69]

Copy and paste directly from the WU website.

"Sender and Receiver represent, warrant and certify to Western Union that its and their use of the Services shall not in any way, directly or indirectly, (a) violate any law, statute, ordinance, contract or regulation, including but not limited to any law, statute, ordinance, contract or regulation relating to money laundering, illegal gambling activities, support for terrorist activities, fraud or theft,"


Copy and paste directly from 32Red's website.

The Government of Gibraltar have licensed 32Red Plc, the operators of the 32Red Online Casino and Internet Poker Room, under the provisions of the Gibraltar Gaming Ordinance.

32Red is proud to be licensed in a reputable jurisdiction with strong ties to the United Kingdom, which is regulated to EU and UK standards. For more information on Gibraltar please visit the Government's website at: www.gibraltar.gov.gi

As the casino has stated, gambling is NOT illegal where they are located. They are fully licenced by the Government of Gibraltar.


Copy and paste directly from 32Red's website.

In September 2005, 32Red cemented it's position as the UK's premiere gaming company by listing on The Alternative Investment Market (AIM) in London. Please click here to see our listing on The London Stock Exchange. You can find 32Red's corporate website at www.32redplc.com

Not only are they licenced and regulated, they are a publicly traded company.

You know Duke, maybe you should try and resolve your issues with the Government of Gibraltar and the London Stock Exchange? Just a passing thought.

[duke7123]

Thank you for your e-mail. Western Union are in no way affliliated in the sale or purchase of goods or services or any payments relating to online gambling.


Kind regards,

Anna, op. 617

www.westernunion.co.uk

Pinababy69 you can stand in the corner all you want but I have sent Pat 2 Pm on here trying to end this but you have only still part of the story. I have posted here what some of the findings were from Western Union even in the UK as 32Red stated that they did noting illegal if they accepted funds in accordance to this email from Western Union then they knowling and did without regreat accept these funds in "complete violation of Western Union and Fexco a division of Firstdatacorp a NYSE so they knew what they were doing all along. You are not making this easy on 32Red once all is exposed.

Duke

[Pinababy69]

You are not making this easy on 32Red once all is exposed.

Duke

What is it that you are going to expose Duke? That WU isn't to be used to fund illegal online gaming? Newsflash, that cat's outta the bag already.

I used Western Union exclusively for three years to fund my casino account (different casino than 32Red). I never had a problem. 32Red is not the only casino that accepted Western Union as a deposit method. As I mentioned previously, Ladbroke's does as well. I suppose they are disreputable too? There are others, too numerous to mention, although if someone wants to provide a list, feel free.

So you asked me what I want well I want my freedom back to use their services fro whatever I need them, but that does not look like it willhappen as of now.

Duke

By your own admission in a previous post in this thread, your WU privileges have now been reinstated, thus achieving your objective. So, my next question is, now what do you want? And please don't make me post 20 times to get it out of you, tell me what you want from the casino. Tell the casino what you want.

[chuchu59]

Duke,

So what exactly is your complaint/concern? Can you summarize this in a short paragraph. There seem to be too many threads on this and I dont think members want to spend too much time reading all of them.

[duke7123]

32Red knew all along what they were doing to get money and to go so far as to violate any and all rules and or policies of Western Union and or its Affiliants. I thought all along that I was sending money to 32Red until I was blocked, then Pat phoned me and told me that it was not employees of 32Red it was a service, picking up funds and giving then to 32Red. The story is as follows and it is the truth!!!!!!!!! i would also like to see this written permission that Pat says that I gave to credit my account and sending in my wifes name. They are wrong in what they did and have made up stories that are unfounded 100%. I would have expected more out of them but Pat will not tell the 100 truth and yes he has been less than honest and did not tell the entire story in his post.

Dear Customer,
Thank you for your e-mail. Western Union are in no way affliliated in the sale or purchase of goods or services or any payments relating to online gambling
In your emails you claim that it pertains to “Internet and that 32Red is not in any way breaking any rules that Fexco, Western Union, or Firstdatacorp as set fourth, with respect to their policies. The email as stated below is very contrary to that statement. Moreover please note some of what my attorney’s have found. That 32Red knowingly and still put a link to make deposits even from online, not to mention that 32Red was aware of Western Union and any affiliates policies. After clicking on the link provided by 32Red which is known to be their information up to include knowing it was wrong. When you click on the link it takes you to a Western Union home page and under the terms and conditions it’s very clear that 32Red knew what they were doing, and clearly condoning the Violation of western Union’s and or any of its affiliates policies. E.G. "prohibited purpose" refers to any unlawful purpose; the purpose of making or receiving payment for gambling services, gambling chips or gambling credits; the purpose of making or receiving payment for banking or other financial services; or the purpose of sending a payment to yourself as the recipient; Western Union strictly prohibits the use of its Internet service to directly or indirectly fund illegal Internet gambling and/or illegal activities. But you post a link direct to Western Union online site?

As you can see by 32Reds effort to link a Western Unions and or its affiliates and coupled with the fact that before one send’s fund’s via the link that 32Red provided for online “Internet Gambling” the statement is very clear by Western Union and all of its affiliates. E.G. You can deposit via this website using your Credit Card from USA/Canada and UK, or from any Money Transfer agent worldwide. One can point to the link and see that it is a Western Union link “ONLINE LINK” not just an agent of any Western Unions and or any of its affiliates.

Pat so it seems that I have been correct all along and that your people that do not view it that way must be wrong. When it is clear and without dispute that 32Red has condone any and all policies of Western Union and or its affiliates. To that end it makes no sense why what is touted, by many that 32Red is a good and upfront honest and do nothing wrong site appears lurking behind the scenes, they will allow anything to get peoples money. In no means is this email to slander with malice 32Red and if one is stating the truth, there is in fact no slander or deformation of anyone’s character.



By virtue of all of the evidence we have gathered that 32Red knew all along what they were doing is more than enough to show cause that they have some serious issues here. That you should not burden all of this alone.

Pat I really don’t understand why you would email this below and the make the statement that you’re fully aware of and then you post a link and I quote as posted on your site and or was “You can deposit via this website using your Credit Card from USA/Canada and UK, or from any Money Transfer agent worldwide.”



Another email that you sent me which I just can’t understand as well nor can my attorney’s as to why you have the western Union link and then tell me all of this stuff below?

EMAIL FROM PAT HARRISON

I’ll try to explain the situation that we are faced with, and hopefully you will understand why this problem occurs.

The transactions that the ‘receivers’ at our Western Union agents receive are classed by Western Union as ‘personal’ transactions. When Western Union believe that these ‘personal’ receivers are receiving too many transactions either from the same ‘sender’ or ‘sending agency’ then they block the transactions and prevent these individuals from being receivers. They do this as part of their Money Laundering Policies. As a practice to adopt it is a sound and understandable one. The difficulty comes in that Western Union does not communicate any of these actions in advance; the first that our receiving agents know about it is when the transactions are blocked. This is what has happened in the last two days; firstly with Ivan Docampo and then Brian Hutchison. Whilst we are informed of these changes as soon as our agents are aware of them, it can be too late for some transactions such as yours. We do keep the details on the web-site up to date, so it maybe worth checking these prior to sending any funds in the future. We are looking at ways of setting ourselves up as agents so as to overcome these problems and make the service far more streamlined; this, however, will take some time to organise.

I hope that explains the recent confusion, but if you need any clarification on it then don’t hesitate to contact me.

I’ll credit your account with $300 now, on the house, so that you may at least enjoy some spins today.

Thanks for your patience, apologies for all the confusion and I wish you the best of the luck!

Kind regards,

Pat Harrison
Operations Director
32Red Casino | 32Red Poker


Pat's comments as posted on here in the thread: Up until 28/2/06 we had a link on our site to the WU homepage. This was placed so that any player wishing to use this service could easily find their local agents. Anybody clicking on this link would have seen the relevant Terms and Conditions of the service, namely that it cannot be used for the purposes of ‘illegal internet gambling’. As I have stated before, we are not an illegal internet gambling site.

Then if you were aware of Western Unions Policies why would you Ed and Pat post a link here and I “Quote” make deposits from anywhere in the world.

Deposit Limits None from the company handling the money transfer. The maximum daily deposit accepted by 32Red Casino and 32Red Poker will be USD $5,000 or currency equivalent. We reserve the right to reject any transactions over this amount which have not had prior approval from our Finance Department.
How to send your funds via Money Transfer You can deposit via this website using your Credit Card from USA/Canada and UK, or from any Money Transfer agent worldwide.

For further information please contact us via email, Live Chat or Phone.

What to do after payment is made Once you have made your transaction, either online or via a Money Transfer agent, you must email us at accounts@32red.com with the following information:

Payment sent to: Representative's Name
Payment sent from:
Currency Used:
Amount:
Money Transfer Control Number (MCTN):
32Red Account Number:
For Credit of: (Poker/Casino account)
Dear Customer,
Thank you for your e-mail. Western Union are in no way affliliated in the sale or purchase of goods or services or any paymentsrelating to online gambling




Email from Pat Harrison: This is turning into a right royal cock-up!

The restriction on use is something that we are fully aware of. The key point within this is the phrase ‘illegal internet gambling’ and I believe it is in there to prevent US residents from using Western Union to fund any sports betting activity which is viewed as being illegal under the Wire Act. However gaming (casino and poker) isn’t covered by the Wire Act and is therefore allowed. Added to this is the definition and interpretation of ‘illegal’. 32Red are a licenced operation and therefore cannot be viewed as being illegal.

I hope that helps and I am not sure as to why all of a sudden this is becoming a major issue.

Did try to call again but still no answer.



Kind regards,

Pat Harrison
Operations Director
32Red Casino | 32Red Poker
Casinomeister Best Casino 2003, 2004 & 2005



Anna, Western Union I have just received a email from the site and they are telling me that all they can see is “ CASINO REPLY “All that I can see in this forwarded document relates to the Internet Service offered by Western Union.”

So again what they are saying is that it is ok to send money to their Western Union agent and that agent will pass along to them the money one send’s to do ”ONLINE GAMBLING” as you might be aware there are many sites like this. I would send it to a person that I don’t know which they meaning the casino site have given me several names, and then that person will pass it on to them. The part that really concerns me is that these people that they gave me the names of don’t even work for the casino site. I guess they have some arrangement with Western Union there for these people to pick up the funds and then give it to them, meaning the casino. The key question is online western union and the policy of Western Union does not apply to local walk in agents as a sender to a receiver for gambling purposes is that ok to send funds that way from any part of the world and then be passed on to a gambling site.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: WU UK.Customer [mailto:uk.customer@westernunion.co.uk]
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 1:27 AM
To: John
Subject: RE: Need Information Western Union Fexco Attn: Supervisor ANNA OP 617 6-2-06 Please reply

Dear Customer,
Thank you for your e-mail. Western Union are in no way affliliated in the sale or purchase of goods or services or any payments relating to online gambling
Kind regards,
Anna, op. 617
www.westernunion.co.uk