Geisha Lounge detucted my $10k winnings

[mafaldina]

The casino manager called me on the phone and offered me, if I cancel my $2500 withdrawal request, they will give me 20% bonus. Wagering requirements 40 times on BJ. I played Caribbean 21 and won $10k. I chatted with the manager and he told me, they will deduct my winnings, because I played Caribbean 21, not BJ. Maybe I am not a gambling expert, but Caribbean 21 is a blackjack game for me. Even if this play did not fullfill the wagering requirements, why do they want to deduct my winnings? I can continue the playing on BJ. But the winnings are mine.
Any suggestion, what to do now? I thought it's a honest casino, because I saw the adv here and at Wizard of Odds.

 

[mafaldina]

Terms and Conditions

Terms and Conditions


1. Only players who have registered a Real Account are eligible to receive Promotions.


2. In order to claim a promotion, qualifying Real Account holders must make their claim via our Cashier unless otherwise stated, ensuring that all the necessary fields are filled in correctly including the correct Coupon Code


3. Bonuses will be credited to the Player's Real Account as Casino Credits only, unless otherwise stated.


4. In claiming any bonus offer from the Casino, the player agrees to wager a minimum of twenty times the value of the purchase and the bonus before making a cash in. For example: If you wish to partake in a $200 free for $200 purchase, you must wager an amount of 20x $400. Play on restricted games Roulette, Craps,War and Baccarat is not permitted until the minimum wagering requirements have been met. Once this condition has been fulfilled play on all the restricted games Roulette, Craps War and Baccarat is permitted.

Wagers on Blackjack (all Blackjack games) and Tricard Poker only count as 1/2 .To qualify for a cash in on these games you will need to wager 40x the purchase and bonus. Additional wagering requirements may be imposed by the casino without prior notice in relation to any specific promotional offer.

4.2 In order to cash in the bonus, you need to cash in a total amount greater than the sum of the purchase and the bonus. This means that you will only be able to cash in the bonus (or part thereof) if you make a profit on the bonus. If your profit is less than the amount of the bonus, this amount will be credited back to your casino account for you to play with. If you lose more than the amount of the bonus no restrictions will be imposed on your cash-in, other than the wager requirements noted above. For example, if you purchase US$100 and receive a bonus of US$100, then a cash-in of US$190 will result in US$90 being returned to your casino account, and you will only be able to cash-in again once your balance exceeds US$100 (being the amount of the bonus received).


5. A promotion cannot be used in conjunction with any other promotional offer and only one (1) bonus offer can be claimed per person. Play across multiple accounts is combined, where applicable. The minimum cash in amount is $50 unless otherwise specified.


6. Bonuses may be refused at the discretion of the management if abuse of promotions is suspected. All cashins will be audited and refused where there is suspected fraud or at the casino management's discretion. Fraudulent bonus claims or cashins will result in the player being charged a processing fee (min. 12% of purchase amount), which will be deducted from their casino balance.


7. By accepting any prize and/or winnings from the Company, you consent to the use of your name for advertising and promotional purposes without additional compensation except where prohibited by law.


8. The Company reserves the right to amend these Terms and Conditions at any time without notice to you. Such amendments will be effective immediately upon being posted in this "Terms and Conditions" section of the Company's Web site. It is your responsibility to review the Terms and Conditions on a regular basis and to check any additional rules detailed within promotional emails. Should you be unclear about any point relating to a specific promotion, it is your responsibility to contact the support team and gain a full understanding before partaking in a promotion.


9. The Terms and Conditions contained herein represent the complete, final and exclusive agreement between you and the Company and supersede and merge all prior agreements, representations and understandings between you and the Company with regards to the claiming of any promotional or bonus offers.


10. Any promotion or offer is terminable at any time in accordance with the views of management without prior notice or obligation.


11. The management reserves the right to disqualify certain countries or individual players from promotional offers. Among the countries whose players are disqualified from promotions are those blacklisted in our General Terms and Conditions. Promotional offers via email, telephone or mail are extended only to the player whom the correspondence is addressed.


12. Please note that a separate Terms and Conditions exists for the general rules of playing in the Casino.



I cannot see anything, which states that if I play Caribbean 21 they will deduct my winnings.

 

[Macgyver]

Why not send the casino rep on here a note and see if he can't help?

It's really not that hard to find these guys on here ...

GrandAcesGeisha

 

[Wagerjunction]

Blackjack Promo

mafaldina

I spoke to the Casino and it seem to have this very issue with you during its weekly promtions as well

You were advised by the Casino manager as you have been advised previously re the weekend promotions that the particular promotion is for play on the game Blackjack only not on variations of 21 games.

This was done over the phone unfortunately ,i did berate him for this.But nevertheless I am going to urge the Casinos to do the following :

1) have your winnings deducted ,
2) your reversal bonus deducted ,
3) your original winnings sent to you.

I am also recomending that your account be closed as i think you need to go out and experience the customer service and policies of other Casinos.

These particular partners are very good and always honour their commitments.I think your tactic of firstly not playing on the agreed game which is Blackjack and then trying to smear its name is not a very wise policy .

I do feel sorry for you as this is a bitter pill to swallow but you were told that this is for Blackjack only and i can tell you right now that this particular partner will not relent or change their minds regarding this.

It has also highlighted a particular issue for the partner ,the fact that they have to not only call but to also confirm via email .

If you have any particular questions regarding this you can either post here or you can PM me ,whichever option you choose is fine by me.

Best Regards
Greg

 

[mafaldina]

I do not accept it

I copied here the Terms and conditions. It does not mention that I cannot play Caribbean 21 and if I play it you will deduct my winnings. So you do not have the right to deduct my winnings.
I played only Caribbean 21 in Geisha Lounge Casino for example on the Tuesday bonus and everything was OK, the casino paid me!
The casinomanager did not advice anything to me. However he called me on the phone and we spoke long. But he did not mention Caribbean 21 or any other game, which is restricted. And in the T&C there is nothing about Caribbean 21 and deducting winnings.
I did not smear any Blackjack name. In the T&C there is nothing about Caribbean 21 is a restricted game.
So why do you want to deduct my winnings? Who gave you the right? You want to rob my money?

 

[schankwart]

This is a classical situation.

It may be true or not that the player was told to NOT play any other game but Blackjack "itself", however, he did not break a single written term and should get paid his winnings in my opinion.

As per the terms posted on the Casino website mafaldina did not disobey a rule when he decided to play Carribean 21, as it is listed under all "Blackjack games" there.
Unless he was informed about the ineligibility of this game by email it would be very wrong to not pay him. Phonecalls are easy to be misunderstood and not a great "proof" unless the player explicitly confirmed that he understood the questionable term.

Geisha most probably meant to disallow the Caribbean 21 game for the bonus, but should have expressed this clearly in their promotional terms.

 

[vedat]

do you think the things you do fair

the guy accepts your offer for %20 bonus he doesnt plays roulette baccarate or craps plays bj and wageres 40x reverse cashout +bonus on a bj variant at terms bj variants is ok i really dont think that your manager told him that he can just play blackjack not the variants if you have the phone cenversation you can post it here (normally all casinos record their phone conversasions) by this behaviour you dont act from any other rouge casinos i think meister will solve this

 

[thelawnet]

You were advised by the Casino manager as you have been advised previously re the weekend promotions that the particular promotion is for play on the game Blackjack only not on variations of 21 games.

This was done over the phone unfortunately ,i did berate him for this.

This is classic. Maybe they did say that, maybe they didn't, nothing can be proven.

But the claim is that a decision was made on THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS and nobody could be bothered to send an email out confirming this.

Certainly it appears that the casino normally classes the Blackjack family games as Blackjack from their other posted t&cs, and any promotion that didn't would be a derogation from this.

So the casino deviates from its normal rules, accepts $2,500 of the player's money, gives $500 out and can't be bothered to send anything out saying what they'd done?

Shoddy, very shoddy.

What does this remind me of?

Oh yes, that's right, the reverse situation, where the player claims the casino told them that something was ok, but doesn't have a screenshot or chat log.

And what happens then?

The player gets jack shit, because they have no proof.

It's quite likely the player *was* told this, but frankly the bonus abuse argument doesn't really wash with me - no-one takes $2,500 + $500 and turns it into $10,000 without being a gambler. You simply can't do that at a casino expectation game like Caribbean 21, without putting your own funds at substantial risk.

But nevertheless I am going to urge the Casinos to do the following :

1) have your winnings deducted ,
2) your reversal bonus deducted ,
3) your original winnings sent to you.

I am also recomending that your account be closed as i think you need to go out and experience the customer service and policies of other Casinos.

Which policies would those be?

The ones where the casino sends the player *WRITTEN NOTICE* when they derogate from their normal playing conditions?

The ones where the casino *pays* the player who has turned $3,000 into $10,000 by gambling like crazy, and where the casino can provide *NO EVIDENCE* that they have done anything wrong.

The ones where if the casino offers say a $500 slots bonus (real example from Belle Rock Gaming), then if you play blackjack and win $10k, and cashout, they don't SEIZE THE WHOLE WINNINGS. In fact they won't even seize the bonus, they will simply tell the player to complete the wagering on slots, and when they have wagered the right amount they can cashout.

This is very very poor.

You're saying the player was told previously, but have no evidence of this either. The casino has a responsibility to safeguard itself, and if it doesn't, then it must take the consequences.


Of course in the very likely event that the player had lost his money, nothing would have happened. Had he played this promotion before? Played the same game? Lost his money and nothing was said?

These particular partners are very good and always honour their commitments.I think your tactic of firstly not playing on the agreed game which is Blackjack and then trying to smear its name is not a very wise policy .

You can complain about player smears all you like, but it's a situation the casino has placed itself in through multiple failures of policy and practice. This was avoidable.

Casinos open themselves up to these hassles by offering players bonuses. These bonuses encourage people, who understandably want to make money.

So you better dot every i and cross every t, because the result of this bonus situation is that it won't take long before a player like this comes a long, and it shouldn't be a surprise to you when they provide your casino with unneeded bad publicity, which could have been avoided with better practice.

It is no use to say 'the player should be more honest'. People aren't always honest. Casino players, managers - all want to win. There will always be situations like this occurring as a result of this.

There are only three ways to handle this:
1. don't offer players bonuses,
2. pay players when you screw up, or
3. make sure you cover your ass by putting everything in writing

Unless you do this, smears and bad publicity are waiting to happen. Avoidable for sure, but unless you do one of these three things, inevitable. To think otherwise is naive, and will lead to this happening again in the future.

This publicity isn't good - there's another complaint not far below this one - your software told the player that he had met the wagering requirements, and so he went to double up on roulette. When it turned out the software was wrong and he hadn't met them, he had his winnings confiscated.

Again, bad publicity, but avoidable, by making sure there's no loophole or shortcoming, or by paying up when things aren't clear cut.

I do feel sorry for you as this is a bitter pill to swallow but you were told that this is for Blackjack only and i can tell you right now that this particular partner will not relent or change their minds regarding this.

It has also highlighted a particular issue for the partner ,the fact that they have to not only call but to also confirm via email .

By partner you mean casino?

It seems like a poor cop out to me. The casino erred, by handing out $500 with no confirmation, and now having found out (apparently) what can happen, they wash their hands and say 'sorry, our mistake, we should send out emails, but you lose anyway'.

Assuming the casino's story is accurate the player sounds a bit sharp, but frankly I don't believe he can be that poor of a customer for you. All casino games are profitable, and a player who makes $10,000 from $3,000 is demonstrating behaviour that will long-term tend to casino profits.

Honestly, while these casinos are recommended here, I know for a fact that you just don't get these kind of hassles with Microgaming casinos.

 

[spearmaster]

The casino manager called me on the phone and offered me, if I cancel my $2500 withdrawal request, they will give me 20% bonus. Wagering requirements 40 times on BJ.

Did he say "blackjack" or "blackjack games"?

By the way, I do NOT support this type of promotion by any casino - this is setting poor ethical standards. Greg, can you possibly talk to the managers about NOT doing this in the future? That way you won't have to deal with issues like this where the terms are not clear.

 

[schankwart]

Did he say "blackjack" or "blackjack games"?

By the way, I do NOT support this type of promotion by any casino - this is setting poor ethical standards. Greg, can you possibly talk to the managers about NOT doing this in the future? That way you won't have to deal with issues like this where the terms are not clear.

Spear, I do not see anything wrong with the promotion itself as long as the player gets send the rules for it. Even some of the most reputable Casinos out there offer promotions upon reversing a withdrawal.
A screw-up like this could probably happen to any Online-Casino but only the wise and good ones will admit their mistake, pay up and learn of it.

Geisha should definetely not risk their reputation as it has been quite excellent so far.

 

[phynqster]

The player here said that he has never played anything but Caribbean Blackjack, if that is true, than the player should be paid. There would not be a reason for the casino manager to make a deal with the player on a game the player has never even tried. If the casino can show, that the player was paid previsouly and plays other games than Caribbean Blackjack, than the casinos story makes more sense.
It does make it difficult to deal with "sharp" players, when players disect rules looking for an advantage. For this reason, some casinos have changed terms by adding key phrases that they can change terms and conditions with out warning. It is a sad state of affaris when you have to deprive 99% of the players, to just watch out for the 1% who tend to abuse the system.

 

[GrandMaster]

The casino has the right to change the terms and conditions, but not retrospectively. Any contract that gives one of parties a unilateral right to change it would be struck down by a court. It should not be beyond casino managers' ability to write watertight T&C, maybe they should hire one of those "sharp" players to help them.

 

[schankwart]

...In this case scenario they just needed to say that "Blackjack excludes Blackjack variants" in order to avoid this confusion.

It would not have harmed anyone.

 

[phynqster]

True, but why?
We are not dealing in a perfect black and white bussiness. As almost every complaint that is posted, it is usually an "interpatation" of the rules. There are a number of different sections of rules in most casinos sites. Each casino is a little different from one another , even with in the same family. There are a number of different languages present , and definitions on what the terms should be.
I wih that there was a general terms and conditions for all casinos that would be 100% the same, and I would hope that one day that could be regulated untill than. When I ran a casino, I asked for skilled players to read my rules and give comments, and the only replies I received were that, "Why should I help you, when I could exploit them for my own benifit". I have read terms and conditions at over 200 casinos, and I have yet to find one casino I could not exploit.
In fact most contracts can not cover everything possible, and courts will listen to what " a reasonable person" interpete them.

 

[phynqster]

Shank my post was in regards to Grandmaster. As for yours, what are variants? We have had some casinos claim that three card poker is a variant. When you go to Vegas, almost ever table game with cards is considered a variant. In fact the "blackjack" dealt on machines are considered "Video poker" and do not have to abide by the same rules. I think that anytime the human factor is brought in to play, there will be problems.
Off thread a little,
I was playing black jack in Vegas at a well known strip casino, and over time had 10 blackjacks, and pushed everytime. When I told the pitboss, he told me he would pay me 10 to 1 if it happened on my next one, when I got a blackjack I called him over, when the dealer also turned over black jack, he refused to pay me 1000.00 because he said that casino has signs posted "that no verbal bets allowed". I told him that it was bullshit, but he said if they paid me or gave me anything, than it would set a presedent, so there was nothing I could do. This was hotel I was rated at , and have never returned, and this would have been chump change for them.I had given them 10 times that amount in the past and would have given more in the future, but there was NO compromise.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

I must admit this looks like another horrible case of another supposedly respectable casino attempting to screw over a player when the casino makes an error.

A couple of points:

1) A casino MUST follow it's terms and conditions as emailed to the player or posted on the site. Verbal agreements can not and should not be relied upon as misinterpretation can easily happen on either side. This works both ways obviously. By the terms posted by the player obviously nothing excludes play on the game they played.

2) GrandAcesGeisha - even if it turns out you do have evidence that the player was indeed informed that they weren't allowed to play Caribean21, please explain where in your terms it gives you the right to steal players winnings when they play excluded games? I cannot see this anywhere in your terms.

 

[schankwart]

I see and understand your point, Phynqster. However, written agreements exist in any form of business that I can think of on this planet, not just Online Casinos.

When it really comes to the point of misinterpretation, common sense usually needs to be applied first. In this case the Casino also mentions "BlackJack variants" under "Blackjack"-terms, what makes the situation even more obvious.
Its always the Casinos that can stretch their own terms in any direction, as they are the ones holding the funds. If they want to take someones money "the nasty way" they may try so, but dont need to be surprised when customers stay away soon after.
It is the word of mouth that makes roguesters what they are and raises up Top-Notch Casinos as well.

Problems such as this one NEVER occur at any reputable outfit out there, which does not surprise me at all. Honesty as well as respect pays back MUCH more than most Casino operators out there can only imagine!
If there are no details of the story missing then this group has now lost a huge amount of credibility to me.

 

[JohnGalt]

2) GrandAcesGeisha - even if it turns out you do have evidence that the player was indeed informed that they weren't allowed to play Caribean21, please explain where in your terms it gives you the right to steal players winnings when they play excluded games? I cannot see this anywhere in your terms.

This is the important point here. Even if it was an excluded game (for wagering purposes), nowhere does it say play on excluded games voids the player's winnings. At the very least the player should be able to fulfill the wagering requirements in BJ and then cash out.

 

[spearmaster]

Spear, I do not see anything wrong with the promotion itself as long as the player gets send the rules for it. Even some of the most reputable Casinos out there offer promotions upon reversing a withdrawal.
A screw-up like this could probably happen to any Online-Casino but only the wise and good ones will admit their mistake, pay up and learn of it.

Geisha should definetely not risk their reputation as it has been quite excellent so far.

This is showing poor ethics. Imagine trying to leave a casino in Vegas, and the pitboss says "Hey! Come play blackjack 40x with us and I'll give you RFB".

In Vegas, this would be considered very poor form - possibly even illegal - to openly solicit one's play.

Promotions should NEVER be offered to players as an incentive for them to cancel a withdrawal. I would personally advise against playing at any casino that does this. Reminds me of Honest Joe making his very-special, last-ditch, only-for-you offer on that lemon in the parking lot that you just passed on.

Some of you might like these bonuses - but then don't come crying to us when you get burnt like this.

 

[mafaldina]

Thanks

Thanks for your opinion.

I do not remember exactly did the manager mention on the phone any game to play or not, but he did not mention restricted games. I did not get any email about this promotion. And in T&C they do not mention Caribbean 21 and earlier I played this game in the casino, when I received the welcome bonus and once on Tuesday on a promotion and there was no problem at all. I only played this game in the this casino. I am quite new in the casino, played there for 1-2 weeks only. When I lost, the casino took away my money, when I won the casino paid me. Nobody mentioned that I played on any wrong game. In the event now I cancelled a withdrawal request from tuesday promotion winnings and I reached this winnings on Caribbean 21!!!
I accept if Caribbean 21 is not fullfill wagering requirements, but earlier
it fullfilled and they did not change the T&C. But I do not accept they want to rob my winning. If Caribbean 21 is not OK, then I will continue the playing on BJ and fullfill the wagering requirements there. In the T&C they do not mention deducting winnings.
But now I am confused, do not know what to do.
I fullfilled the wagering requirements of this promotion, I have more than $13000 on my account. The manager told me in the chat, they will deduct my winnings. Here the casino operator wrote they will deduct my winnings. But until this time nobody deducted anything. Can I request a cashout now? Will I get my winnings?

 

[spearmaster]

Let's see what Geisha Lounge has to say about this. Regardless of the fact that they may or may not have mentioned any restrictions on the phone, this information should ALWAYS be confirmed in an email or through some method indicating acceptance which occurs online.

If Geisha cannot show exactly what was restricted, I would think that the player should be paid in full. I fail to see how anything but certain bets (betting both red/black, hi/lo, odd/even, pass/don't pass etc.) can be worse than having to complete 40x playthrough on blackjack, and that most certainly includes Caribbean 21 or any other game.

If the player had played slots instead of blackjack, and completed 40x playthrough, would the casino have tried to void the winnings? I highly doubt it unless they were simply unethical.

Not acceptable.

 

[spearmaster]

I was playing black jack in Vegas at a well known strip casino, and over time had 10 blackjacks, and pushed everytime. When I told the pitboss, he told me he would pay me 10 to 1 if it happened on my next one, when I got a blackjack I called him over, when the dealer also turned over black jack, he refused to pay me 1000.00 because he said that casino has signs posted "that no verbal bets allowed". I told him that it was bullshit, but he said if they paid me or gave me anything, than it would set a presedent, so there was nothing I could do. This was hotel I was rated at , and have never returned, and this would have been chump change for them.I had given them 10 times that amount in the past and would have given more in the future, but there was NO compromise.

I think it should be patently clear that the pitboss could not possibly, or even legally, make this bet. He certainly cannot change the odds on any proposition without the approval of the Gaming Board. Thus, whatever a pitboss says about paying double or whatever, you have to take in jest because he cannot pay out if it actually happens.

That being said, I would have done the same thing at a casino where I got treated like this - in fact, I have when I got comped at blackjack rate while playing a game with nearly a 7% house edge - for almost 80 hours, sometimes at table max.

Thank you, Sahara, for showing me how cheap you really are. Now I get comped at the Wynn instead!

 

[jetset]

I agree with the observations made by Grandmaster and John Galt here, namely:

The casino has the right to change the terms and conditions, but not retrospectively. Any contract that gives one of parties a unilateral right to change it would be struck down by a court. It should not be beyond casino managers' ability to write watertight T&C, maybe they should hire one of those "sharp" players to help them.

and the fact that playing excluded games leads to reward disqualifications:

This is the important point here. Even if it was an excluded game (for wagering purposes), nowhere does it say play on excluded games voids the player's winnings. At the very least the player should be able to fulfill the wagering requirements in BJ and then cash out.

In today's almost adversarial climate where casinos know that experienced players will be (as phyngster suggests) looking through their T&C's with a microscope to seek an advantage it is vital that these rules are properly constructed and presented. Leaving things to the whim or instant change decisions of either party is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Wagerjunction]

Winnings

Mafaldina

You were speaking to the Casino manager on Yahoo Chat and you were well aware of the restrictions.I have basically told the Casino manager that as there is no recorded mails with regards to the reversal bonus agreement he essentially has no leg to stand on.

Spear i completely agree with you,this type of tactic (reversal bonus ) is very cheap and smacks of desperation which is something they are so obviously not.

The Casino has been incredibly naive in this instance and will change its operating policy i am sure with immediate effect.

I am currently speaking to the partner about this and will get back to all of you pretty soon re this.

Regards
Greg

 

[mafaldina]

I was not aware of the restrictions at all, not in Yahoo messenger, not on the phone, not in email, not anywhere else. I do not know, from where did you find it out that I was aware? It's not true.
I played only Caribbean 21 in your casino and it was no matter when I lost. And it was no matter when I won smaller amount. You already paid me. First time, a week ago, when the manager called me, he told me, I did not fullfill the wagering requirements on the Tuesday bonus and he told me I have to wager more. However he did not mention, that I played on Caribbean 21 and it is not OK. He just told me I have to wager more. I did it and requested a withdrawal and they paid me.
How it is possible, that it became matter, when I won big amount?
Anyway, there are the T&C. Is there anything about deducting winnings if I play Caribbean 21?
The rest is none of my business. I won and you have to pay.

 

[elscrabinda]

One things for certain- if the terms had said no BJ allowed and you played Carib21 you can be damn sure it would then count as a BJ game.

Utterly pathetic for an apparently reputable casino, although it should be noted that this is the second serious issue on these forums in recent weeks about this bunch.

 

[nafanny29]

Reading this thread I am so glad I only gamble very modest amounts online and hardly ever use a bonus. All you high rollers really are gambling with more than just the cards and dice out there in cyberspace.

From what ive read here I cant see a single reason not to pay the player in full.

As someone already stated this is going to cost GAG a lot more than the $10000 they are trying to save in the long run.

Just my 2c

 

[Expertx]

bonus for reversing withdrawal is not good,for both casinos and for players.

 

[schankwart]

Greg, I believe to know that you are legit so please convince the manager to do the right thing here.
At very, very least Geisha should let the player wager the funds out on "allowed" games, but I think he should be paid straight up and then the Casino can do whatever.

It hurts me to see players being treated like this and I can not emphasize this strongly enough!

Ted, I now understand your point as well, thanks for explaining.

I am looking forward to hear the result of this issue.

 

[GrandMaster]

Shank my post was in regards to Grandmaster. As for yours, what are variants? We have had some casinos claim that three card poker is a variant. When you go to Vegas, almost ever table game with cards is considered a variant. In fact the "blackjack" dealt on machines are considered "Video poker" and do not have to abide by the same rules. I think that anytime the human factor is brought in to play, there will be problems.

If this is a problem, then make it clear then that "blackjack" means blackjack only, "blackjack variants" means blackjack, pontoon, caribbean 21, "slots" means slots (list them individually and make it clear that videopoker is not included) and so on, and use these terms consistently.

Off thread a little,
I was playing black jack in Vegas at a well known strip casino, and over time had 10 blackjacks, and pushed everytime. When I told the pitboss, he told me he would pay me 10 to 1 if it happened on my next one, when I got a blackjack I called him over, when the dealer also turned over black jack, he refused to pay me 1000.00 because he said that casino has signs posted "that no verbal bets allowed". I told him that it was bullshit, but he said if they paid me or gave me anything, than it would set a presedent, so there was nothing I could do. This was hotel I was rated at , and have never returned, and this would have been chump change for them.I had given them 10 times that amount in the past and would have given more in the future, but there was NO compromise.

You failed to read the T&C. As he was not acting in his capacity as an employee of the casino, it was a private bet, and he reneged on it, which means that he is not a gentlemen.

When I ran a casino, I asked for skilled players to read my rules and give comments, and the only replies I received were that, "Why should I help you, when I could exploit them for my own benifit".

I said hire one as consultant and pay him properly, not ask them to volunteer. You weren't running the casino as a volunteer, were you?

I have read terms and conditions at over 200 casinos, and I have yet to find one casino I could not exploit.

I think our interpretation of the word "exploit" is different. If you mean taking a bonus, and playing with a positive expectation within the rules, that's still possible at many casinos. I understand "exploit" as finding a method of play that was not intended by the casinos and which guarantees a profit to the player, then there are very few such possibilities.

 

[Wagerjunction]

Resolution

Hello

I believe from the management of Geisha Lounge that a satisfactory resolution has been made with the player and i am sure that the player can confirm this.

This is not about trying to cheat anybody this is due to confusion because of the practice of the Casino.

I asked why an email was not sent out to the player as is usual re the reversal bonus and it was because they made the offer just before they cashed the funds in .Yes i know it is totally out of order to do that but they explained to me that They always ask once if the player wouldlike to reverse and then never again if the player declines.

I have asked them to review this strategy in light of the feedback.

Why do you guys always assume that the Casinos are trying to cheat people out of money ? Can confusion and human error not occur in the best of orginizations .

Geisha Lounge is a good Casino that has been around for many many years and under our stewardship we have taken it a bit further in terms of respectability than previous management.

The other issue by the way has been resolved as well.

Have a great day guys

Regards
Greg

 

[elscrabinda]

Why do you guys always assume that the Casinos are trying to cheat people out of money ? Can confusion and human error not occur in the best of orginizations

I don't think we need to answer this, especially with the activities of some of your software stablemates. Legitimate casinos who use RTG are on a constant uphill struggle to convince people they are genuine and not crooks I am afraid. I'm sure the management knew this when they took it on.

Also, I am by no means convinced that this didn't happen solely because of the bad publicity generated by this board. I would go as far as saying that in my opinion the casino WAS trying to cheat this player. It just got caught by someone savvy enough to know his rights. I would also like to know what a 'satisfactory resolution' is in your view. I sincerely hope it is not the same kind of 'satisfactory resolution' that Joyland seem to advocate. Maybe the original poster can confirm that he did indeed receive all the money he was due. That is unless he has been silenced with hush money representing a fraction of what he was owed.

 

[Wagerjunction]

Assumptions

Elscrabinda you are free to assume whatever it is you wish to assume ,i am afraid that there is not much that i can do about that and to be quite honest i dont think i even want to.

What i do know is that Geisha has a lot of players playing in it that are very happy.

As for hush money you seem to know a lot of devious tactics ,but im sure that you will relate that some of our software stablemates offering this to you in the past ? You have a very very limited knowledge of the gaming industry.I can take you through the failures of Casino on every single software platform if you wish ?

As far as the resolution goes i am quite sure that the person will respond given time and then you will now what the resolution is.

Your comments are so out of line ,i sometimes receive PMs on this board that get resolved and sometimes i speak to people within the industry and then make a judgement ,you can safely assume that i will never call upon you for that as you know far to much already about the gaming industry,i fear that you would be onto me in a second.

Finally i do believe that this board is her for the precise reason of mediating between Casinos and players .It is not here as an excercise in lambasting and accusing places without any proof whatsoever.

All places make mistakes and my partners are no exceptions ,they do try though to do the right thing all the time

So make of that what you will ,i know what has happened and if mafaldina would like to post then that is her perogative .You could always PM her if you like

Have a great day ,i know mine just got better

Regards
Greg

 

[schankwart]

It is impossible to say if anything here has been done on purpose or not.
I am very glad to hear however that this player apparently got what he/she earned, as it shows that Geisha seems to be making correct decisions after all. I am convinced that this issue would have turned into quite a big thread as the common opinion about it was very clear.

Of course noone is fortunately perfect, but problems (or confusions) such as this have mainly occured at fishy outfits in the past, that preferably used RTG software. Personal experience got me dead-sick of Real Time Gaming Casinos that abused or "nastily"-interpreted their own terms in order to cancel a withdrawal, and I know very well what this player probably felt like when the winnings got voided.
I believe that neither of the two parties involved should be blamed anymore however, as proof for fraud can not be shown.
Geisha should take it as a VERY serious warning however and make sure that anything like this will never happen again.

 

[spearmaster]

I will vouch for the general integrity of Greg and Geisha Lounge. Yeah, they make mistakes, and sometimes silly ones as well, just like other operations do. At the very least, though, if you have a legitimate beef, Geisha usually sees to it very quickly and resolves it, unlike many other casinos I know who are otherwise reputable - so kudos for getting this sorted out ASAP.

 

[phynqster]

I was under the impression that the max bet for caribbean 21 was only 5.00 set by RTG, unless a casino over rides the amount ?
Shank, do you think that there might be a corelation between the big pay outs and RTG software. I never see stories of people winning 10k+, at softwares other than RTG. In my opinion RTG could clean up there act over night if they changed their RNG's to the same as other softwares use.

 

[schankwart]

RTG has very high table limits along with the fastest software out there, which makes winning and losing a lot easier.

The reason for the high number of public RTG complaints has been the same forever. They allow to sell their software to unscroupolous people who take money for a service they do not offer to their clients; A fair Gamble.

I have seen the worst of the worst at RTG and unfortunately there is nothing more one can do but to name these outfits and reveal them to public.
Microgaming disputes hardly catch any public attention anymore as they are being seriously resolved behind the scenes by Ecogra nowadays. RTG's Montana however has not even been able to (wanted to) resolve the most obvious cases by pulling up their "60 day" rule or needing forever in order to at least give any response to filed disputes.

If people trusted Montana more I am SURE the public bashing as well as fraud by Casinos AND players would go back drastically! As long as the Casinos can do whatever they want without getting nailed for any bad deeds the players will do self-justice in order to try to get what they want.

Threads such as this one are the simple answer on missing trust in RTG.

 

[bpb]

In my opinion RTG could clean up there act over night if they changed their RNG's to the same as other softwares use.

huh?

 

[mafaldina]

Solution

Seems to be everything is OK. I am very happy. It's a correct decision. Their email:



"This e-mail is with regards to your query of the 20% bonus ($500.00) on
the
cancellation of the $2500.00 withdrawal.

Kindly be advised that as per your dispute at Montana, the casino
management
has reviewed your comments both to
ourselves and those made to Montana.

Please note that after careful review of all information in this
regard, the
casino management and will allow your request
to fulfill the wagering requirements as offered to yourself
telephonically.
i.e. Wagering on BlackJack only (no variants),
using the current balance of $13,363.04

Therefore, No deduction of your winnings as mentioned previously.
However
you will be required to fulfill wagering
requirements of ($2500 reversed + $500 bonus) x 40 times as originally
offered.

The above offer is made, in part due to our failure to e-mail the
acceptance
of both parties to this offer, whereby we
only offered and received acceptance telephonically.

As part of the above, we kindly request that you post a new notice at
the
CasinoMeister Forum, as per the previous
postings made in reference to this regard, which have been brought to
our
attention, advising of the resolution of this
matter to your full satisfaction.

We kindly await your reply in acceptance of this offer.

Offering our apologies for any inconvenience and confusion experienced
in
this regard."



Thanks for every post. Now I feel, we can close this topic. How can we do that?

 

[spearmaster]

Umm...

That last bit about "requiring notice" smacks of cheapness as well. Greg - go slap someone upside the head. I can't speak for low-life operations whose names I won't mention that require these type of notices - but this should not be allowed here at Geisha either and I view it with the same disdain as offering a bonus to reverse a withdrawal.

I'll lock the thread later.

 

[chuchu59]

Hello

I believe from the management of Geisha Lounge that a satisfactory resolution has been made with the player and i am sure that the player can confirm this.

This is not about trying to cheat anybody this is due to confusion because of the practice of the Casino.

I asked why an email was not sent out to the player as is usual re the reversal bonus and it was because they made the offer just before they cashed the funds in .Yes i know it is totally out of order to do that but they explained to me that They always ask once if the player wouldlike to reverse and then never again if the player declines.

I have asked them to review this strategy in light of the feedback.

Why do you guys always assume that the Casinos are trying to cheat people out of money ? Can confusion and human error not occur in the best of orginizations .

Geisha Lounge is a good Casino that has been around for many many years and under our stewardship we have taken it a bit further in terms of respectability than previous management.

The other issue by the way has been resolved as well.

Have a great day guys

Regards
Greg

I played with Geisha when it was with Microgaming several years ago. The experience was a very pleasant one. However,players are always at a dilemma when playing at online casinos because they cant see the dealers,cards etc face to face. Whenever something that is merely coincidental happening eg losing in BJ when you have 20 against a dealer's 6.
It just seems fishy. Then there are horror stories of casinos not paying and long losing streaks. That said,confidence can be built up if the reps of these organisations come out and solve problems without being dodgy. As the saying goes "Justice must not only be done,it must be seen to be done" I hope you can continue to contribute to this forum and hopefully there will be mutual trust.

 

[Bruce Hamilton]

...players are always at a dilemma when playing at online casinos because they cant see the dealers,cards etc face to face. Whenever something that is merely coincidental happening eg losing in BJ when you have 20 against a dealer's 6.

I've seen the same thing happen with live dealers at land casinos, the fact that it's an online casino has no bearing unless you catch the software cheating you.

 

[scrollock]

Elscrabinda you are free to assume whatever it is you wish to assume ,i am afraid that there is not much that i can do about that and to be quite honest i dont think i even want to.

What i do know is that Geisha has a lot of players playing in it that are very happy.

As for hush money you seem to know a lot of devious tactics ,but im sure that you will relate that some of our software stablemates offering this to you in the past ? You have a very very limited knowledge of the gaming industry.I can take you through the failures of Casino on every single software platform if you wish ?

As far as the resolution goes i am quite sure that the person will respond given time and then you will now what the resolution is.

Your comments are so out of line ,i sometimes receive PMs on this board that get resolved and sometimes i speak to people within the industry and then make a judgement ,you can safely assume that i will never call upon you for that as you know far to much already about the gaming industry,i fear that you would be onto me in a second.

Finally i do believe that this board is her for the precise reason of mediating between Casinos and players .It is not here as an excercise in lambasting and accusing places without any proof whatsoever.

All places make mistakes and my partners are no exceptions ,they do try though to do the right thing all the time

So make of that what you will ,i know what has happened and if mafaldina would like to post then that is her perogative .You could always PM her if you like

Have a great day ,i know mine just got better

Regards
Greg

that has to be one of the most unprofessional responses i have heard on here from a casino rep for a long while, even 2 of the most pilloried reps of recent times (joyland & virtual ted) managed to maintain their dignity on this board.

thankfully this situation has been resolved, so theres no point in arguing about it anymore except to say that its quite apparent what has happened.

as for this player, who effectively accepted a 20% bonus with a WR of 40x (d+B) & was willing to be betting in such large chunks that she quadrupled her balance is the sort of customer the online casinos are screaming out for. however i suspect that after she cashes out you will have lost her and deservedly so.

 

[elscrabinda]

that has to be one of the most unprofessional responses i have heard on here from a casino rep for a long while

I'm glad you think so as well

 

[largeeyes]

The question that HAS to be asked is, If he ended up at 0 instead of 13000, would you have refunded his 2500 because he wasn't allowed to play that game? My guess is no. So you would allow him to play a game where the only possible outcome is to lose. That, my friend, is the worst of the worst in casino behavior.

 

[jpsartre]

The question that HAS to be asked is, If he ended up at 0 instead of 13000, would you have refunded his 2500 because he wasn't allowed to play that game? My guess is no. So you would allow him to play a game where the only possible outcome is to lose. That, my friend, is the worst of the worst in casino behavior.

Post deleted: Sorry, I mistook this thread for the other thread about Geisha Lounge.

 

[elscrabinda]

The other issue by the way has been resolved as well.

I took this to mean that the other issue had been resolved. Apparently it hasn't- not according to the player anyway! See the other thread

 

[thelawnet]

Seems to be everything is OK. I am very happy. It's a correct decision. Their email:



"This e-mail is with regards to your query of the 20% bonus ($500.00) on
the
cancellation of the $2500.00 withdrawal.

Kindly be advised that as per your dispute at Montana, the casino
management
has reviewed your comments both to
ourselves and those made to Montana.

Please note that after careful review of all information in this
regard, the
casino management and will allow your request
to fulfill the wagering requirements as offered to yourself
telephonically.
i.e. Wagering on BlackJack only (no variants),
using the current balance of $13,363.04

Therefore, No deduction of your winnings as mentioned previously.
However
you will be required to fulfill wagering
requirements of ($2500 reversed + $500 bonus) x 40 times as originally
offered.

The above offer is made, in part due to our failure to e-mail the
acceptance
of both parties to this offer, whereby we
only offered and received acceptance telephonically.

As part of the above, we kindly request that you post a new notice at
the
CasinoMeister Forum, as per the previous
postings made in reference to this regard, which have been brought to
our
attention, advising of the resolution of this
matter to your full satisfaction.

We kindly await your reply in acceptance of this offer.

Offering our apologies for any inconvenience and confusion experienced
in
this regard."



Thanks for every post. Now I feel, we can close this topic. How can we do that?

Um, this doesn't make sense.

You are apparently 'very happy'.

But according to you you said you thought Caribbean 21 was allowed. They claim they told you blackjack ONLY.

If what you say is accurate, I don't see why you would be happy about having to wager $120,000 (that is 240* the original bonus amount) more, when you have already met those wagering requirements as you say they were communicated.

Too easily pleased?

 

[elscrabinda]

You are apparently 'very happy'.

It was the condition of getting this compromise from the casino that she posts saying how great they are. Always take these post resolution comments with a pinch of salt

 

[thelawnet]

It was the condition of getting this compromise from the casino that she posts saying how great they are. Always take these post resolution comments with a pinch of salt

Regardless, I mean if the poster's original statement was honest, in my position I wouldn't be happy, and I wouldn't accept such an offer.

Of course it might be she's just an outrageous gambler and didn't mind, which is why I wonder about the support person's original comments about here, where he basically said that he was going to recommend the account be closed, even though from all appearances she's exactly the sort of customer a casino wouldn't want to lose....

Anyone who accepts a 240* WR with thousands of their own money at stake can't be too bad.