Problems with Vegas Red - £1700 confiscated

[thelawnet]

I am hopeful that the casino will resolve this, but as the amounts involved are large, I am posting here to confirm what has happened....

I have played at this group's casinos for quite a while - my first ever online casino purchase was at Casino Tropez, and I have made several deposits at Casino Del Rio. I always felt they had treated me pretty well, especially at the Del Rio VIP club.

Exactly one week ago I signed up at Vegas Red, and got their signup bonus. I had to play some thousands in wagering. I played video poker and then played out the entire wagering requirement on pontoon, eventually withdrawing £1800 after removal of their sticky bonus.

The bonus I got is described here

http://www.vegasred.com/uk/888/bonus.html

Because I have seen casinos change their terms after the fact I am posting them here for posterity.

50% FREE! - On Your First Deposit

Receive a 50% free play bonus on your first ever deposit at the casino.

Maximum bonus for your first deposit is £200.

For example:
Deposit £50, receive a £25 free bonus, play with £75!
Deposit £200, receive a £100 free bonus, play with £300!
Deposit £400, receive a £200 free bonus, play with £600!

High Roller Bonus: Receive an additional £88 Bonus if your first four bonuses total £800, making your total bonus amount £888! To claim this bonus just send an email to uksupport@vegasred.com

Your 50% up to £200 bonus will be credited to your account instantly.

This play bonus may not be combined with any other play bonus unless otherwise stated.

In the interest of fair gaming, we ask that you wager a minimum of fifteen (15) times your play bonus plus deposit (15 x (bonus + deposit) before requesting a withdrawal.

For example:
Deposit £50 receive a £25 bonus - minimum wager is £1,125
Deposit £200 receive £100 bonus - minimum wager is £4,500


100% PLUS! - On Your Second Deposit



Receive a 100% free play bonus on your second ever deposit at the casino.

Maximum bonus for your second deposit is £200.

For example:
Deposit £100, receive a £100 bonus, play with £200!
Deposit £200, receive a £200 bonus, play with £400!


High Roller Bonus: Receive an additional £88 Bonus if your first four bonuses total £800, making your total bonus amount £888! To claim this bonus just send an email to uksupport@vegasred.com

To claim your 100% up to £200 bonus, please send an email to uksupport@vegasred.com

This play bonus may not be combined with any other play bonus unless otherwise stated.

In the interest of fair gaming, we ask that you wager a minimum of fifteen (15) times your play bonus plus deposit (15 x (bonus + deposit) before requesting a withdrawal.

For example:
Deposit £100 receive a £100, minimum wager is £3,000
Deposit £200 receive a £200, minimum wager is £6,000


You may also receive up to an additional 15% if you deposit £201 or above using an alternative payment method. If you use Ukash, Click2Pay, ePassport, Firepay, Neteller, InstaCash, Moneybookers, EcoCard, Paysafe, eWallet, Citadel, Instadebit or UsemyBank. you will receive an additional 10% and if you deposit using Wire Transfer or Bank Draft you will receive an additional 15%. - see below "Up to 15% EXTRA Terms".




150% PLUS!- On Your Third Deposit



Receive a 150% free play bonus on your third ever deposit at the casino.


Maximum bonus on your third deposit is £200.

For example:
Deposit £50, receive a £75 bonus, play with £125.
Deposit £100, receive a £150 bonus, play with £250.
Deposit £135, receive a £200 bonus, play with £330.


High Roller Bonus: Receive an additional £88 Bonus if your first four bonuses total £800, making your total bonus amount £888! To claim this bonus just send an email to uksupport@vegasred.com

To claim your 150% up to £200 bonus, please send an email to uksupport@vegasred.com

This play bonus may not be combined with any other play bonus unless otherwise stated.


In the interest of fair gaming, we ask that you wager a minimum of fifteen (15) times your play bonus plus deposit (15 x (bonus + deposit) before requesting a withdrawal.

For example:
Deposit £50 receive £75, minimum wager is £1,875
Deposit £100 receive £150, minimum wager is £3,750


You may also receive up to an additional 15% if you deposit £401 or above using an alternative payment method. If you use Firepay, Neteller, InstaCash, Moneybookers, EcoCard,Playsafe, 900Pay, Citadel, Instadebit or UsemyBank you will receive an additional 10% and if you deposit using Wire Transfer or Bank Draft you will receive an additional 15%. - see below "Up to 15% EXTRA Terms".




100% PLUS! - On Your Fourth Deposit



1.You are only eligible to receive this fourth deposit bonus if you have received the maximum bonus amounts for your first three deposits (totaling £600 in bonus cash).


Eligible players will receive a 100% bonus up to £200 on their fourth ever deposit at the casino.


The maximum bonus on your fourth deposit is £200.

For example:
Deposit £100, receive £100 bonus, play with £200!
Deposit £200, receive £200 bonus, play with £400!


High Roller Bonus: Receive an additional £88 Bonus if your first four bonuses total £800, making your total bonus amount £888! To claim this bonus just send an email to uksupport@vegasred.com

To claim your fourth deposit bonus, please make your deposit and send an email to uksupport@vegasred.com. Once your eligible deposit is verified, your account will be credited.

This play bonus may not be combined with any other play bonus unless otherwise stated.


In the interest of fair gaming, we ask that you wager a minimum of fifteen (15) times your play bonus plus deposit (15 x (bonus + deposit)) before requesting a withdrawal.

For example:
Deposit £100 receive £100, minimum wager is £3,000
Deposit £200 receive £200, minimum wager is £6,000


You may also receive up to an additional 15% if you deposit £201 or above using an alternative payment method. If you use Firepay, Neteller, InstaCash, Moneybookers, EcoCard, Paysafe, 900Pay, Citadel, Instadebit or UsemyBank you will receive an additional 10% and if you deposit using Wire Transfer or Bank Draft you will receive an additional 15%. - see below "Up to 15% EXTRA Terms".




Additional Up to 15% EXTRA Terms



Whenever you make a deposit using Ukash, Click2Pay, ePassport, Firepay, Neteller, InstaCash, Moneybookers, EcoCard, paysafecard, eWallet, Citadel, Instadebit or UsemyBank we will award you a 10% bonus free in cash! AND if you make a deposit using Wire Transfer or Bank Draft we will award you with a 15% bonus free in cash!

For example:
Deposits using Ukash, Click2Pay, ePassport, FirePay, NETeller, InstaCash, Moneybookers, Citadel, paysafecard, eWallet, Instadebit or EcoCard:
Deposit £150, get £15 in bonus money (10% extra)

Deposits Using Wire Transfer or Bank Draft:
Deposit £150, get £22.50 in bonus money (15% extra)


Only deposits of £50 or more will qualify for this bonus.


The aggregate sum of play bonuses you may receive is limited to £250 per month, per account. The aggregate sum of play bonuses you may receive overall is at least £2,000 per account at the discretion of the VIP Manager.


In the interest of fair gaming, you must wager at least 2 (two) times your deposit plus play bonus before cashing out any amount exceeding your deposit. For example with the 10% bonus: Deposit £400, receive a £40 play bonus, wager minimum is £880 (£440 x 2).


You may not use this play bonus in combination with another play bonus unless otherwise stated.


Bets placed on any versions of Baccarat, Craps, all versions of Roulette, all versions of Sic Bo, all Video Poker games, Blackjack Switch and Blackjack Surrender will be not be counted toward wagering requirements.


To receive this bonus, please email: support@vegasred.com with your Real account username in the subject line and the following in the body: "I have qualified for the 10% bonus - [your username here]", - or - "I have qualified for the 15% bonus - [your username here]" or simply request the bonus from our online support team. Please note: this bonus will be given retroactively on deposits that were made up to two weeks before the request date only.


You must deposit at least £50 in a single deposit to qualify for this bonus.




General Terms



The Play bonuses will be given only once per household and/or per account, as per terms of use. If a second account is opened it will be closed and all play bonuses and winnings may be cancelled.

Players with one or more pending withdrawals currently in their account are not eligible to receive any bonuses, promotional or otherwise, until such withdrawals are either processed or cancelled. Abuse of this policy, as defined by the casino, may result in cancellation of the player's winnings.

The casino reserves the right to review transaction records and logs at anytime, for any reason whatsoever. If, upon such review, it appears that player/s are participating in strategies that the casino in its sole discretion deems to be abusive, the casino reserves the right to revoke the entitlement of such player to the promotion.

In the event of a dispute, all decisions made by the casino will be final.

The Casino reserves the right to change the terms and conditions of this offer at any time and it is your responsibility to periodically check here for changes and updates.

All PLAY BONUS credits are for wagering purposes only. (No withdrawal will be honored for an amount less than the PLAY BONUS. Upon your FIRST withdrawal (regardless of the number of deposits), any amount up to the equivalent value of the PLAY BONUS will be deducted from your play balance or winnings prior to settlement. The first credits wagered will be deducted from your deposit(s) rather than from the PLAY BONUS).

Players that select Great British Pounds (GBP sterling) as their currency AND aren't from the United Kingdom will NOT be eligible to receive bonuses. PLEASE NOTE that this term does NOT apply to players from the UK. Players from the UK using GBP sterling are kindly asked to wager their bonus and deposit fifteen times.

Wagers placed on the following games will not count towards fulfilling your minimum wagering requirements on the above £888 welcome bonus offer: Any versions of Baccarat, Craps, all versions of Roulette, all versions of Sic Bo, all Video Poker games, Blackjack Switch and Blackjack Surrender.

The total combined maximum play bonus that will be given for the first, second, third and fourth deposit is £888.

PLEASE NOTE: Should you request a withdrawal before having reached the wagering requirements, your play bonus and winnings will be void. *Should you have any questions relating to how much additional wagering is needed before reaching the minimum requirements, please contact our support team.

Today I received the following email:

Your withdrawal request can not be processed since you have wagered your bonus money on restricted games.

As mentioned in welcome Bonus terms of use, bets placed on all versions of Baccarat, Craps, all versions of Roulette, all versions of Sic Bo, all Video Poker games, Blackjack Switch and Blackjack Surrender do not count towards wagering, and the Casino reserves the right to withhold any amount in excess of the player's original deposit from a player's withdrawal if the bonus is wagered on the above games, before the wagering on allowed games is completed fully.

Since you did not contact our support to have the bonus removed before playing the restricted games, as advised, we have no other option except removing the winnings from your balance. To remain in accordance with our policies, the winnings in your account have been voided and any bonuses removed. Your initial deposit has been refunded.

If you wish to play restricted games in the future, please let us know, and we will block your account from receiving bonuses.

I replied to them, saying the following:

It says that wagers placed on the following games will not count towards fulfilling your minimum wagering requirements. It does not say 'the Casino reserves the right to withhold any amount in excess of the player's original deposit from a player's withdrawal if the bonus is wagered on the above games, before the wagering on allowed games is completed fully.'

This is not in your terms anywhere, and I have checked. I did play video poker, but I went on to fulfill the wagering requirements on other games.

I understand that video poker does not count towards the wagering requirements, however, there is nothing to say that you cannot play it at all; if there was something to this effect on your site, I would not have played it, but there is not.

By way of comparison I refer you to other casinos where it is stated that you cannot play excluded games.

E.g.,

http://www.actiononline.com/promotions/promo_terms.html
Action Online Casino reserves the right to withhold any amount in excess of the players original deposit from a player's withdrawal if the bonus is wagered in Roulette,(all versions), Baccarat (all versions), Blackjack (all versions except original Blackjack), Craps (all versions), SicBo (all versions), or Jacks or Better (all versions).

Or

http://www.barakacasino.com/online-c....html#100bonus

In order to cash out any amount exceeding your original deposit you must wager at least thirty (30) times the sum of your original deposit and bonus at qualifying games, up to $6000. Please note that you must first qualify your bonus before attempting to play any non qualifying game. Should you wish to avoid having wagering requirements please inform us before you begin playing and we will remove your bonus. Any infringement from the above will result in all winnings and bonus being void.


There is nothing like this on your site, so it is not reasonable to withhold my winnings.

The terms are crystal clear: 'the play is not counted towards wagering requirements.' That is a very long distance from 'you are not allowed to play these games, and we will confiscate your winnings if you do'.

I am hopeful they will respond positively to my email.

[vinylweatherman]

This lot have form, and it is not good. They actually are allowed to advertise in the UK as outfits like 888 are. The UK run portal themutual.net are actively promoting this casino. If they are in breach of terms AS ADVERTISED, not as interpreted by the casino, they have no grounds for confiscation. It is not even as though the bonus is withdrawable!!!
If any of their ads are on UK servers you have them by the short & curlies!
Check their terms for their nominated juristiction for dispute resolution, and whether they have a point of appeal. If they will not budge it's the small claims court for this (get all the evidence you can before they can change the terms retrospetively on the links). Send them this evidence outlining why you believe a case in the small claims court will be ruled in your favour.
More than likely, they will pay up and ban you for life, you will at least get this rather large amount of money.

[elscrabinda]

Playtech casinos really do have trouble interpreting their own terms! The problem surely comes when they all just cut and paste from each other and then pretend that the terms say what they actually wanted them to say.

This should be a no brainer and with persistence there's no reason you won't get paid. That is unless their affiliate manager comes on and starts accusing you of fraud (see Giant Vegas thread which refers to a similar issue)

You may be able to use your VIP status at del rio as leverage but i doubt it. They'll probably just see this as another excuse not to pay you

Good luck!

[caruso]

Yes, exactly the same as Giant Vegas. However, I don't think for a minute this is "bad interpretation" on the part of the casino - you can be sure they word their terms exactly as they want, using this apparent grey area as a win-confiscation ruse:

Originally Posted by vinylweatherman

The UK run portal themutual.net are actively promoting this casino. If they are in breach of terms AS ADVERTISED, not as interpreted by the casino, they have no grounds for confiscation. It is not even as though the bonus is withdrawable!!!...If any of their ads are on UK servers you have them by the short & curlies!

I'll take your word for it, but I can't imagine why the fact of an advertising portal on UK servers would be enough clout to make another stiff Playtech pay up. Affiliates are just affiliates at the end of the day.

I will not touch Playtech casinos, and I like a bonus as much as the next player. There is much too much risk for my own taste. I don't care if it's a £1000 bonus, I can't be doing with the prospect of getting into a six-month blood bath and probably still ending up unpaid, as in African Palace, Indio, Giant Vegas, Vegas Red, Grand Banks, Golden Palace etc etc.

[vinylweatherman]

Originally Posted by caruso

I'll take your word for it, but I can't imagine why the fact of an advertising portal on UK servers would be enough clout to make another stiff Playtech pay up. Affiliates are just affiliates at the end of the day.

It might not make them pay up, but I don't think their best interests lie in being blacklisted by UK watchdog and licensing authorities as this will not only affect them here, but throughout the EEC. They will only be left with US players to shaft!
More likely, they will pay up eventually, doing the utmost minimum necessary to prevent adverse publicity in the general public domain (as opposed to the forums).

[oblomov]

From the Vegas Red Terms of Use,Section 9. Reservation of Rights:

"We reserve the right to withhold any amount in excess of the player’s original deposit from a player's withdrawal if the play bonus is wagered in any versions of Baccarat, Craps, all versions of Roulette, all versions of Sic Bo, all Video Poker games, Blackjack Switch and Blackjack Surrender. We reserve the right to refuse or rescind the play bonus for any reason including, but not restricted to, player abuse. In case of abuse, We reserve the right to discontinue player's membership and to prevent the player from accessing the Online Casino in the future."
http://www.vegasred.com/uk/888/terms.html

So its our old friend "we may not honour winnings,but we will never refund losses".

A simple scam,easily fallen for because the relevant clause is hidden in a separate section to the bonus terms.

It would be interesting to know if these t&c's are conceived by Playtech,seeing as so many of their licencees have similar or identical ones.

[vedat]

in inetbet also when you get bonus you cant play excluded games in some casinos also specially playtect and rtg i always ask casinos first before playing excluded games if they will confisgate my winnings if i played an excluded game its really very sad that for people who dont know about this becouse people usually dont read terms and they deposit and start playing and they play games they want so casinos who uses this tactic so if a guy wins alot with bonus they can forfeit the wins .its reall very tricky i wonder no good casinos use that

[vinylweatherman]

So they add:-

Bets placed on any versions of Baccarat, Craps, all versions of Roulette, all versions of Sic Bo, all Video Poker games, Blackjack Switch and Blackjack Surrender will be not be counted toward wagering requirements.

So players don't think to look around for other terms to indicate general game exclusions.
Naturally, if you DO ask, they will form the view that you intend to beat the bonus and will deny payment anyway!
The other trick is to E-mail you the link to the terms as if that answered the question, but forget to tell you about the other set!

So, genuine players who use the bonus as the idea was originally intended, to try ALL the games on offer with an enhanced bankroll, will be stuffed. Wise bonus hunters will know all the tricks of the trade, will go over the terms in detail. Will not do anything that might allow the casino to wriggle out of it's obligations, and will play as if they don't have a clue what they are doing. (As in not meet WR and withdraw in one go and move to the next venue in the group - they will bide their time!)

[Rocky]

This same thing happened to me at Del Rio. In my case I was a customer at Europa, and they sent me an email inviting me to try Del Rio. I had played video poker many times at Europa and it was never a problem, it just did not count toward the wagering. The terms at Del Rio say that video poker does not count toward wagering, not that you can not play at all.

They have taken $3000 from me. I have pitched a bitch and emailed the Playtech complaint department.

[Pinababy69]

I will not touch Playtech casinos, and I like a bonus as much as the next player.

My sentiments exactly!! Up until about a year and a half ago, I spent just as much at Playtech as I did at MG. Until I realized what a pain in the ass it is to cashout. Even when you do get paid, you're lucky if you get it in a week or two. No excuse for waiting that long, not when other softwares and other casinos can do instantaneous payments, and payments within 24 hours on a regular basis. No way am I waiting weeks to get paid on a legitimate win. And all of these recent complaints just reaffirm that I made the right decision.