COMPS and ratings?

[shdw06]

vegas must be slow, cuz i got an offer for free room + airfare for a return trip! the kicker is that i have to play $50 a bet for 5 hours to get the airfare voucher. so does anyone here know how they rate and track that? for example, if i play texas hold 'em table game, at $10 ante + $20 flop bet + 10 turn + 10 river, is that $50? or do they only count the initial $10? does the bonus bet count too? or should i just play blackjack? =0) or, does anyone know of any other game that is not too much ohouse advantage and is super SLOOW?

[RobWin]

vegas must be slow, cuz i got an offer for free room + airfare for a return trip! the kicker is that i have to play $50 a bet for 5 hours to get the airfare voucher. so does anyone here know how they rate and track that? for example, if i play texas hold 'em table game, at $10 ante + $20 flop bet + 10 turn + 10 river, is that $50? or do they only count the initial $10? does the bonus bet count too? or should i just play blackjack? =0) or, does anyone know of any other game that is not too much ohouse advantage and is super SLOOW?

Hey shdw06, you'll earn more comps and perks faster by playing Blackjack at those bet rates than you would playing poker. I wrote an article awhile back regarding player comps at land based casinos HERE

[polli123]

Thank you for the link rob.

[spearmaster]

Rob - slap on the wrist... at the very least you should share some of that knowledge in here before linking back to your site...

Also, he's talking about the table game, not poker. The answer is yes - all $50 bet would be counted.

Furthermore Rob, your assertion is not entirely correct - it depends on the casino. If you are playing $50 at Texas Hold'Em Bonus table, I guarantee you that the rating for this will be much higher than for blackjack (at a decent casino, that is) - to the point where the OP should go to the casino host, or the pitboss - and say that he needs to play $50/hand/5 hours at BJ, but instead he wants to play Texas Hold'Em Bonus table - could they tell him the correct rate for that in order to earn the airfare?

There ARE exceptions to the rule - there are some casinos (Sahara, for example) where ALL table play is rated at the same rate - I discovered this the hard way, and never returned - too bad they had just finished making a plaque to put at the Deuces Wild Hold 'Em Fold 'Em table with my name engraved on it.

[RobWin]

[quote]

Rob - slap on the wrist... at the very least you should share some of that knowledge in here before linking back to your site...

Sorry but I Just simply gave the originating link to the original article for their credit as I would do for any article or news item that I posted about in here...same as this example HERE

Also, he's talking about the table game, not poker. The answer is yes - all $50 bet would be counted.

If that's the case and he is actually talking about the new table game "Texas Hold 'em Bonus" that came out about 3-4 years ago then it also will not earn him comps as fast or as easy as Blackjack would either IMO because of the percent of "House Edge Hold" that that particular game has. If his play is not the exception to the rule then he will not be able to last as long at "Texas Hold 'em Bonus" as he would playing at the standard "Blackjack" table. The "Texas Hold 'em Bonus" house edge is 2.04% according to Michael Shackleford under Las Vegas rules.

The house edge is even more under Atlantic City and Colorado rules. According to Scott McIntosh the house edge is 5.5935% under the Atlantic City rules, and 2.3496% under the Colorado rules. Reference

Furthermore Rob, your assertion is not entirely correct - it depends on the casino. If you are playing $50 at Texas Hold'Em Bonus table, I guarantee you that the rating for this will be much higher than for blackjack (at a decent casino, that is) - to the point where the OP should go to the casino host, or the pitboss - and say that he needs to play $50/hand/5 hours at BJ, but instead he wants to play Texas Hold'Em Bonus table - could they tell him the correct rate for that in order to earn the airfare?

Agreed, it can depend on which casino he chooses to visit but as I stated above I respectfully disagree with you regarding your statement that "the rating for this will be much higher than for blackjack". The house edge hold on this poker game is much more than it is on your standard game of blackjack which in all probabilities will mean he will bust out faster which will mean less play time and money turn over at the table for this particular player. And we all know that length of playtime plus bet-size = more and better comps assuming he is playing at the rate of $50 per hand. He will also most likely play more hands per hour at the Blackjack table than he will at the Poker Bonus table.

There ARE exceptions to the rule - there are some casinos (Sahara, for example) where ALL table play is rated at the same rate - I discovered this the hard way, and never returned - too bad they had just finished making a plaque to put at the Deuces Wild Hold 'Em Fold 'Em table with my name engraved on it.

Agreed, there are exceptions to the rule. My statements, my article and my experiences are all based on my own playtime over the past 20 years at land based casinos that are now managed by Harrahs.

[spearmaster]

Sorry but I Just simply gave the originating link to the original article for their credit as I would do for any article or news item that I posted about in here...

Honestly, I prefer to see a snippet of an article or news item - no matter where it is. Matters not if it's yours or someone else's - not saying you can't link back, but a simple "here" isn't particularly useful. That type of link is reminiscent of forum spam bots, if you see what I mean.

If that's the case and he is actually talking about the new table game "Texas Hold 'em Bonus" that came out about 3-4 years ago then it also will not earn him comps as fast or as easy as Blackjack would either IMO because of the percent of "House Edge Hold" that that particular game has.

Your statement is still incorrect. Comps playing Texas Hold 'em Bonus will be earned at a higher/faster rate than blackjack at any good casino - and the house edge is completely irrelevant when discussing comps. He may actually lose more money - on that count you would be right - but your statement as it stands is not correct in most situations (except crap places like the Sahara).

If his play is not the exception to the rule then he will not be able to last as long at "Texas Hold 'em Bonus" as he would playing at the standard "Blackjack" table. The "Texas Hold 'em Bonus" house edge is 2.04% according to Michael Shackleford under Las Vegas rules.

This is dependent on the size of one's bankroll, the period of time, and the amount of luck. As I have pointed out above - he may lose more quickly - but this is irrelevant to earning comps unless the comp rate is the same as for blackjack.

Agreed, it can depend on which casino he chooses to visit but as I stated above I respectfully disagree with you regarding your statement that "the rating for this will be much higher than for blackjack". The house edge hold on this poker game is much more than it is on your standard game of blackjack which in all probabilities will mean he will bust out faster which will mean less play time and money turn over at the table for this particular player. And we all know that length of playtime plus bet-size = more and better comps assuming he is playing at the rate of $50 per hand. He will also most likely play more hands per hour at the Blackjack table than he will at the Poker Bonus table.

Not correct. Length of playtime could be decreased, or size of bet could be decreased, or even both, depending on the comp rate used for that game. This is why I told him he should approach a casino host or a pit boss to see what his new requirement would be - and if the answer was still $50/hand/$5 hours I most certainly would've either checked out, or played only blackjack just to see the look on the face of the pitboss.

In a good casino, every game will have a different comp rate. When a casino quotes you a hand value and time for a table game in order to earn a comp, it is always for blackjack, which is always their worst case scenario. Any well-prepared player who does not want to play blackjack should approach a pit boss or host - but the casino is counting on the fact that many people do not know this.

It's very easy to test - the next time you go to Vegas (I am not aware of the policies of locations outside Vegas since I rarely play elsewhere), go up to the pitboss and ask how long it will take to get a comped room if you play $25/hand at any unusual table game - and then ask him "How about blackjack?" - if you get the same rate, find another casino.

Here are a few tricks you can try:

* If you've been told that you need to play 5 hours at $50/hand - this is an average number. So if the pitboss walks away, lower your bet for a hand or two.
* Take frequent bathroom breaks, at least once every half hour - if the pitboss asks, tell him you have diabetes.
* Keep your cell phone with you - if it rings, you will have to step away from the table, and thus can skip a hand or two.
* If the game requires some decision on your part, stall a bit before announcing your decision.
* Get the waitress to serve you drinks frequently - keep $1 chips or coins in your pocket, not on the table. Take time to get the $1 tip out of your pocket for the waitress each time.
* Every 3 hours, ask the pit boss if you can have a meal break (and ask him to comp that too). If you've been really friendly and chatty with the pitboss, not only will you get your meal, you may find yourself eating steak instead of at the buffet!
* Always sit at the busiest table you can find - if the table is empty, you will be playing double or triple as many hands per hour.

Think of it this way. Casinos use a calculation of say 30-40 hands per hour - so that would be $1500-$2000 wagered per hour in the above instance. What this means is - your playthrough is $7500-$10000 before they will give you airfare.

If your game is blackjack - your expected loss $50-$100 under ideal circumstances - most likely cheaper than your airfare.

If your game is Texas Hold 'em Bonus - at say 5% house edge - your expected loss $500 if bound to the same bet size and time played. Obviously not as worthwhile - however, get that bet size lowered to say $25, and you'll lose $250 - much more reasonable. Or get the time cut to 3 hours... your loss is $300.

What Robwin is trying to say is that it is more cost-effective to play blackjack - which is entirely correct - but he said that you will not earn comps as fast, which is incorrect except if you're at a casino like the Sahara.

BTW, the Sahara did sort of make up for it, in that I and a friend got comped at their steakhouse for anything we wanted - and I had only been playing $5-$10 per blackjack hand for a few hours... but that was early in my Sahara period.

But never again after I found out the flat table comp rate, even though I was personal friends with the slots floor manager, had a waitress who knew exactly what I wanted every half hour (coffee and water), where most of the dealers knew me by name, and one even took me out for dinner because I spoke Thai.

[RobWin]

[quote]

Honestly, I prefer to see a snippet of an article or news item - no matter where it is. Matters not if it's yours or someone else's - not saying you can't link back, but a simple "here" isn't particularly useful. That type of link is reminiscent of forum spam bots, if you see what I mean.

Agreed, good point..

Your statement is still incorrect. Comps playing Texas Hold 'em Bonus will be earned at a higher/faster rate than blackjack at any good casino - and the house edge is completely irrelevant when discussing comps. He may actually lose more money - on that count you would be right - but your statement as it stands is not correct in most situations (except crap places like the Sahara).

Maybe I could have been clearer in my previous post. I agree with you that comps may be earned at a higher rate/faster on Texas Holdem Bonus poker verses Blackjack but you have to factor in the amount of playtime into that formula also. At the same bet amount the playtimes will not be the same assuming the bankrolls are also equal. In all probabilities you will bust out faster at "Texas Holdem Bonus poker" than you would playing Blackjack simply based on house edge probabilities. Thus relating into less playtime = less comps earned as I further explain below.

It's not irrelevant based on my experiences regarding these two games when you take into account the probabilities of the outcome of the session and the particular game based on the house edge probabilities, of course, assuming all things are equal; ie: bet size.

House edge probabilities will come into play as far as playtime goes if you take into account the house edge probabilities regarding those two games. You will be sitting there at the blackjack table playing a lot longer since the house has not retained as much of your stake as it would have, had you been playing Texas Holdem Bonus poker, based on house edge probabilities and my personal play experience with these two games over the past years.

Of course there are exceptions to my statements here as well, ie: he doesn't hit a royal flush hand in the poker game, which would definitely extend his playtime.

Long Playtime plus Average Bet Size of $50 = Good Theoretical Win = Best Comps

[For Everyone] You could have one guy place a 20k bet at the table and walk out and never come back and you have another who maxes out his playtime at $100 bets and plays a lot longer. His "Theoretical Win" will be a lot greater than the guy who just made the hugh bet of $20k, which will in turn earn him a lot more and much better comps than the guy who bet 20k.

Remember folks, the higher you can get your "Theoretical Win" up, the more and better comps will follow, even the private offers. A lot of times casinos are reluctant to tell you what your average "Theoretical Win" amount is. But if you are close with one of your hosts you will be able to gain access to this normally hidden info. The more you understand about what "Theoretical Win" means and how the casinos use it to rate your play for comp benefits the faster you will understand what you need to do in order to get to a certain level in their program.

This is dependent on the size of one's bankroll, the period of time, and the amount of luck. As I have pointed out above - he may lose more quickly - but this is irrelevant to earning comps unless the comp rate is the same as for blackjack.

Not true based on Harrahs rating system and they are the world's largest provider of branded casino entertainment through operating subsidiaries. Think about it, if he loses more quickly he will not be playing as long which will = a lower "Theoretical Win" which = less comps.

Not correct. Length of playtime could be decreased, or size of bet could be decreased, or even both, depending on the comp rate used for that game. This is why I told him he should approach a casino host or a pit boss to see what his new requirement would be - and if the answer was still $50/hand/$5 hours I most certainly would've either checked out, or played only blackjack just to see the look on the face of the pitboss.

Yea, of course...I was talking about the "Theoretical Win" aspect of the two compared, whereas I believe you are talking about the particular offer.

Here are a few tricks you can try:

* If you've been told that you need to play 5 hours at $50/hand - this is an average number. So if the pitboss walks away, lower your bet for a hand or two.

But don't forget about the cameras in the ceiling and all around you...

* Take frequent bathroom breaks, at least once every half hour - if the pitboss asks, tell him you have diabetes.
* Keep your cell phone with you - if it rings, you will have to step away from the table, and thus can skip a hand or two.
* If the game requires some decision on your part, stall a bit before announcing your decision.
* Get the waitress to serve you drinks frequently - keep $1 chips or coins in your pocket, not on the table. Take time to get the $1 tip out of your pocket for the waitress each time.
* Every 3 hours, ask the pit boss if you can have a meal break (and ask him to comp that too). If you've been really friendly and chatty with the pitboss, not only will you get your meal, you may find yourself eating steak instead of at the buffet!
* Always sit at the busiest table you can find - if the table is empty, you will be playing double or triple as many hands per hour.

Harrahs tracks all of these actions just for everyones info.

What Winbig is trying to say is that it is more cost-effective to play blackjack - which is entirely correct - but he said that you will not earn comps as fast, which is incorrect except if you're at a casino like the Sahara.

RobWin...RobWin.. Regarding comps: Hopefully I cleared that up above.

BTW, the Sahara did sort of make up for it, in that I and a friend got comped at their steakhouse for anything we wanted - and I had only been playing $5-$10 per blackjack hand for a few hours... but that was early in my Sahara period.

But never again after I found out the flat table comp rate, even though I was personal friends with the slots floor manager, had a waitress who knew exactly what I wanted every half hour (coffee and water), where most of the dealers knew me by name, and one even took me out for dinner because I spoke Thai.

Cool...

And you did ask me to share my knowledge in here first.

Rob

[spearmaster]

Maybe I could have been clearer in my previous post. I agree with you that comps may be earned at a higher rate/faster on Texas Holdem Bonus poker verses Blackjack but you have to factor in the amount of playtime into that formula also. At the same bet amount the playtimes will not be the same assuming the bankrolls are also equal. In all probabilities you will bust out faster at "Texas Holdem Bonus poker" than you would playing Blackjack simply based on house edge probabilities. Thus relating into less playtime = less comps earned as I further explain below.

It's not irrelevant based on my experiences regarding these two games when you take into account the probabilities of the outcome of the session and the particular game based on the house edge probabilities, of course, assuming all things are equal; ie: bet size.

House edge probabilities will come into play as far as playtime goes if you take into account the house edge probabilities regarding those two games. You will be sitting there at the blackjack table playing a lot longer since the house has not retained as much of your stake as it would have, had you been playing Texas Holdem Bonus poker, based on house edge probabilities and my personal play experience with these two games over the past years.

Not sure I follow. Given an infinite bankroll, you will have infinite playtime. Given a large bankroll, you will still make 5 hours in this instance.

If you have a limited bankroll, say less than 100x your unit bet size, then playtime might be lessened - but your theory does not take into account the size of bankroll... therefore cannot be correct

Long Playtime plus Average Bet Size of $50 = Good Theoretical Win = Best Comps

The OP's objective is 5 hours at $50 per hand He may not wish to play any longer than this - no different than an online player meeting minimum playthrough. His playthrough can however be modified if the casino rates Texas Hold 'Em Bonus differently.

Long Playtime therefore is not the objective unless you are talking either a long-term situation, or else a limited bankroll. And good theoretical win doesn't exist unless you are talking about a comp value

A comp should be valued something closer to this:

bet size x playtime x game comp rate

Note that the calculation does not take into account a particular game or house edge. This is strictly for comps.

A better calculation, perhaps, might be called Estimated Return:

(bet size x playtime x game comp rate) - (bet size x playtime x house edge)

Now this would make sense if it was easy for people to calculate. Unfortunately, it's not so simple and depends on the casino host or pitboss tellling you the comp rate, which they usually don't. That's why your invitations, or general offers, simply give you bet size x hours - but that is enough to give you the same basic information since you know what you're getting!

Value of comp - (bet size x playtime x house edge)

Your calculation makes the assumption that the game comp rate is the same across all table games - which is why I mentioned the Sahara. I have already pointed out that if you are not playing blackjack, you should ask for the same information (bet size and playtime) with regards to a different game. Both bet size and playtime are variables a casino host or a pitboss can change.

[For Everyone] You could have one guy place a 20k bet at the table and walk out and never come back and you have another who maxes out his playtime at $100 bets and plays a lot longer. His "Theoretical Win" will be a lot greater than the guy who just made the hugh bet of $20k, which will in turn earn him a lot more and much better comps than the guy who bet 20k.

Theoretical win in your example is $30K for the single bet (assuming you get a blackjack). It is impossible for someone who bets $100 x2000 to have a higher theoretical win than someone who bets $20000 x 1.

Remember folks, the higher you can get your "Theoretical Win" up, the more and better comps will follow, even the private offers. A lot of times casinos are reluctant to tell you what your average "Theoretical Win" amount is. But if you are close with one of your hosts you will be able to gain access to this normally hidden info. The more you understand about what "Theoretical Win" means and how the casinos use it to rate your play for comp benefits the faster you will understand what you need to do in order to get to a certain level in their program.

Ahh... now I see the problem. "Theoretical Win" should be viewed as "Casino Theoretical Win" rather than "Player Theoretical Win" - be very careful. A casino host or pitboss will never tell you Player Theoretical Win. They will always mean "Casino Theoretical Win".

Not true based on Harrahs rating system and they are the world's largest provider of branded casino entertainment through operating subsidiaries. Think about it, if he loses more quickly he will not be playing as long which will = a lower "Theoretical Win" which = less comps.

Only if the game comp rate is the same for both Blackjack and Texas Hold 'Em Bonus. Using the Sahara model, you would be entirely correct. If Harrah's uses the same model, then you would be best off finding another casino if you wish to play Texas Hold 'Em Bonus - or else playing blackjack at Harrah's, earning your free airfare, then moving elsewhere.

You can safely assume that I was a max value hunter - the cavemen which preceded online bonus hunters!

But don't forget about the cameras in the ceiling and all around you...

The cameras are for security purposes, and for review in case of a dispute. They are not there for monitoring your average bet per hand. This would be tantamount to having a monitor for every player active in an online casino. If they want to double-check, they'll ask the dealer - and this is rarely done.

Harrahs tracks all of these actions just for everyones info.

If they are tracking your bathroom breaks, I can believe that - but the rest of it, I highly doubt. Pitbosses do not have the time to watch each player 100% of the time - and the people monitoring the cameras have much more important things to do.

Just as a FYI, my experience is over 27 years, playing/staying at the Sahara, New York New York, MGM Mirage, TI, Aladdin, Wynn, Monte Carlo, Vegas World (which obviously doesn't exist any more), Stratosphere, Plaza (downtown), LV Hilton.

Also, Imperial Palace in Biloxi (yuck!) and Taj Mahal in Atlantic City (also poor regarding comps).

I have never paid for a room or meals since early in my college days, unless I took up a really cheap room offer ($19 at Vegas World, $29 at the Sahara, both once).

[RobWin]

Maybe this will explain what I was trying to convey above more clearly:

Casinos assign a rating to each premium player based on the equation:

(Casino's Theoretical Win) = (player's average bet) x (hands per hour) x (hours played) x (house advantage).

[shdw06]

holy bejezus! you guys threw out WAY more info than i was expecting! i had to read everything twice, and i still dont think that i completely understand lol! its all appriciated though! the parts i do understand, i agree completely; in terms of house edge, and potential profit/loss scenarios, and the fact that i may well lose more than the $300 i get. it would most likely not be worth it from a profit/loss point of view, to lose $1000 to get $300. i would however, gain an invaluable reason to take off from work (again) to use that voucher. i tried contacting my casino host to ask some of these questions, and to clarify the details and specifics of this offer. thanks for all the help, and i'll post the answers i get from her, just in case you are all curious. i do still have one question, though, and that is assuming that $50 bet/ 5 hours are the only requirements, regardless of game, what game would i play the least amount of hands? as far as i know, pai gow is the slowest game on the planet. and i lied, i have one more question, which is what happens when i "link" someone elses players card to mine? my ex-girlfriend had her card linked to my account, so that we would accumilate comps into one account, and not 2. if i linked a buddy's card to my account, would my $30 average bet plus his $20 still add up to $50? or would i need to then have a $100 average bet, since there is twice as many players on the account? thanks again for the info!