Potential conflict-of-interest concerns - Apathy - Thoughts on Improving CM Forum

[WagerWitch]

Methinks Apathy stems from the realization that the casinos in an over all tandem movement do not care how they treat the players.

They don't care about the player.

They care ONLY about the dollar figures that resonate with each deposit.

Test this theory:

Go to ANY casino - deposit 2000.00 and then play through your 2000.00. Accept the bonus of 75% with your deposit.

Then when you run out - because the machines are NOT hitting in ANY way - ask them for any type of no deposit bonus - with any requirements.

And watch them laugh at you.

Most of the time they might throw you a bone - but the majority will give you a NEXT TIME deposit bonus.

There isn't any personal - let's look at your account any more...

It's all about the deposit.

After awhile - the player starts to realize what they are worth at the online casinos... NOTHING.

And that - creates apathy.

LOL!

[Casinomeister]

Methinks Apathy stems from the realization that the casinos in an over all tandem movement do not care how they treat the players.

They don't care about the player.

They care ONLY about the dollar figures that resonate with each deposit.
...

If you truly feel this way, why are you promoting them?

[GGW Laurie]

Methinks Apathy stems from the realization that the casinos in an over all tandem movement do not care how they treat the players.

They don't care about the player.

They care ONLY about the dollar figures that resonate with each deposit.

Test this theory:

Go to ANY casino - deposit 2000.00 and then play through your 2000.00. Accept the bonus of 75% with your deposit.

Then when you run out - because the machines are NOT hitting in ANY way - ask them for any type of no deposit bonus - with any requirements.

And watch them laugh at you.

Most of the time they might throw you a bone - but the majority will give you a NEXT TIME deposit bonus.

There isn't any personal - let's look at your account any more...

It's all about the deposit.

After awhile - the player starts to realize what they are worth at the online casinos... NOTHING.

And that - creates apathy.

LOL!

This is what i got out of Wager Witches post and what i strongly beleive, the casinos are not in the non profit business, they are there to make money,yes there are some casinos out there that do not give a damn, all they want is your deposit, but lets face it, its a money making business for the casinos and the affiliates, they dont do it and quit their day jobs if they are not making money or see a future in it for themselves.

Not all casinos are this way, but again, they are not there to be a friend but there to take a chance on if your deposit will out last them and who will come out ahead of the house......just my thoughts...........laurie

[JHV]

I would never dream of criticising anyone trying to make a living or even trying to build a fortune via online gambling or any other legal industry. I do not believe that so-called 'vice' industries such as online gambling cannot be conducted in an ethical manner.

I do not believe all online casino operators are ruthless operators who employ crafty tricks (or simple tricks if you're intelligence-challenged such as myself) to squeeze every last $ they can out of their patrons. There are clear examples of operators who behave in a consistently ethical manner, despite what must be a tantalizing temptation to take advantage of their patrons like other online casinos are and have been doing.

I see a banner for one of those online casinos flashing above this post right now: Millionaire Casino. At every point, they've been reasonable (even if I haven't - when I was too intelligence-challenged to realise what "active payline" meant and panicked that the machine had robbed me of a Feature ). Another Millionaire example: In a Slots tournament, I hit a feature with about a minute to go on the clock. In every tournament I've played, when the clock hits 0.00, all active hands, spins and features are played out. At Millionaire (and also at Microgaming - although it's slightly complicated in Microgaming rebuy tournaments where your feature can be continued if you rebuy), when the clock hits 0.00 - that's it! Tourney OVER! Unaware of this fact, and only 1000 chips behind 3rd place, I was casually working my way through the Feature rejecting bank offers of 6000 and 8000, fully expecting to be able to play out the Feature. Boy, did I feel foolish rejecting an 8000 or so bank offer with 0.02 on the clock, only to find the Feature was killed cold when the clock hit 0.00. The manager looked at my account, realised clearly I had no angle or reason for rejecting the bank offer with seconds to go, and because there were no clear Rules to clarify it, he graciously credited my account with the difference between 3rd and 4th prizemoney.

This is how ethical casinos operate, imo.

32Red is another example. I'm yet to hear a single bad word about 32Red - they're just a fantastically well-run online casino, and must have a stellar track record for there to be literally no complaints about them anywhere that I can see.

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In simple terms, I think you can break down online casinos into one of the following 3 groups:

1. Online casinos who will do the right thing, no matter if it's the most 'profitable' thing. They'll just do it because it's the right thing to do.

2. Online casinos who might *want* to do the right thing, but are tempted to push the limits a bit with stuff like intentional and unnecessarily delayed cashouts, because so many other operators do it and get away with it.

3. Online casinos who have absolutely no interest in doing the right thing. They are 100% about the almighty $ - they could not spell 'ethics', and would have no interest in attempting to do so - they'll ONLY do the right thing if doing the right thing increases their bottom line but will use every old (and new) trick in the book to deceive players, to take advantage, or intentionally mislead new players with grossly incorrect Auto-Hold suggestions (for example).

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Wouldn't it be great if we could actively support and reward those in the first bracket with our custom? Not that it wouldn't be in our best interests anyway to do so, as they are least likely to treat us unfairly - so perhaps a more appropriate reward would be to actively broadcast their quality reputation so that new players decide "Ok, I'll play there!".....

And by doing so, we give added incentive to the middle bracket who *want* to do the right thing, but are tempted by the increased profits being generated by those using unethical tricks. It could be enough to swing them to the 'Light'.

And by doing so, we hurt the bottom line of unethical operators in the bottom bracket by sending new players to the "good guys". Whilst the bottom bracket won't start behaving more ethically because it's the right thing to do, they might start behaving more ethically when it becomes the financially rewarding thing to do. Especially if we combine that positive reinforcement of the top bracket with outspoken negative reviews and criticism of the bottom bracket. Management could look at their decreasing revenues and say: "That's it! We're going for 'ethical' from here on in!"

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Maybe I'm living in a fantasy world and this is a ludicrous idea. But I think if you get enough people spreading the RIGHT kind of word-of-mouth (not the tainted kind spread by affiliates who simply don't care how the money is acquired, simply that they get a cut of it) - if we get enough people reversing their apathy and becoming activists instead....who knows? Maybe some really good stuff can happen....

[DiamondGeezer]

I for one am not apathetic but it's hard to know what can be done beyond a certain point.

The situation is that to a large extent we are merely pawns in a big trade battle that is going on throughout the EC and also the vested interests of Las Vegas in America who as I understand it were behind the move to restrict online gaming in the US. In Europe it is not much better as Germany, Italy and France have all worked to restrict their markets. In the UK we were happy to open them up because we have a lot of large gaming companies that wanted to expand aggressively into Europe. But then we started taxing them too much so they hopped offshore instead!

This is the potted history. We have ended up with a lot of corporations based in peculiar areas with not a great deal of accountability.

Luckily the good ones have realised the importance of trust and do business in a fair and proper manner. But when that trust breaks down it has become apparant there is not a lot players can do. The only real redress is here at CM or an official complaint to the relevant jurisdiction (don't snigger).

Lately some of the behaviour has got pretty outlandish. I'm surprised the major software companies don't wake up to how much this could damage the industry if it gets out into the public domain. The WW part payment of Megajackpots, Playtech progressive yearly payments, the opaque Will hill/Playtech deal, the mysterious story of the CC €180K VP jackpot, the black hole of Eurolinx.

Believe me I am familiar with all these events but what as a player can I actually do?

[JHV]

In the UK we were happy to open them up because we have a lot of large gaming companies that wanted to expand aggressively into Europe. But then we started taxing them too much so they hopped offshore instead!

This is the potted history. We have ended up with a lot of corporations based in peculiar areas with not a great deal of accountability.

Luckily the good ones have realised the importance of trust and do business in a fair and proper manner. But when that trust breaks down it has become apparant there is not a lot players can do. The only real redress is here at CM or an official complaint to the relevant jurisdiction (don't snigger).

Lately some of the behaviour has got pretty outlandish. I'm surprised the major software companies don't wake up to how much this could damage the industry if it gets out into the public domain. The WW part payment of Megajackpots, Playtech progressive yearly payments, the opaque Will hill/Playtech deal, the mysterious story of the CC €180K VP jackpot, the black hole of Eurolinx.

Believe me I am familiar with all these events but what as a player can I actually do?

To your first point, you're spot on, of course. Frankly, it stuns me (from a business perspective) why 888 / PartyGaming continue to trade publicly. I mean, if I was on either board when the UIGEA was backdoored through Congress at the 11th hour - I think I would have spent most of that night and would simply NOT have slept until I found or put together my own private equity capital to buy my company, delist it, move it offshore and continue business as usual - i.e. 5x or 10x profits.

Although I was pretty lucky in that I bought some LSE: PRTY super leveraged CFD's based on "a tip" that they were about to do just that - it made so much sense to me, I bought up really big. At one point, my entire 'investment' was worth $250 or something on paper as the SP hovered at 21.25p or something (with 21.00 my bust point). Long story short, sold a month later for 40k profit (that was a FUN month for a 2/4nl SSNL grinder )

/derail oops

But yep, there will be no solution for this in the future. You cannot censor the internet. I know online casinos running advanced marketing into China, and listening to the manager describe the tech behind it (I'm not a tech guy but I kinda understood half of it) was amazing. Basically, whatever the government can do, they *instantly* have an answer for and he claimed the software could simply ghost to a new server without break in playability if required. Amazing if true - and I had no reason to doubt him.

So online casinos will always be based in tiny tax-free type havens that want to draw employment there. The jurisdictions will never be like the NGC is now - they're too reliant on the incoming $ those large casino licensees are delivering to be objective or to even be able to exert any power over them.

So, I think the only answer IS forums like this one. Knowledge is power. But I think - and this could be a whole new topic deserving of another thread - that a watchdog is needed for the major affiliate sites also. Like, I get up on my mini-donkey here and rant about affiliate links providing conflict of interest - but I just realised that issue just pales into comparison with the incredibly large affiliate sites who just laugh as they list CM-rogued casinos in their "Best Casinos" or "Top Casinos" lists.

Bryan, perhaps a Rogue List for affiliates / affiliate sites as well? Has this idea ever been bounced around? God knows the online poker industry needs it - there are literally THAT many unethical and incompetent rakeback affiliates, it makes my blood boil at times.

I'm just brainstorming now - maybe a Seal of Approval of some kind? Like TST certified...but CM certified for affiliates - ethical affiliates would subject their operations to an independent audit of some kind, who looks around for complaints, surveys customers on their thoughts, looks for unethical practices, etc (totally spit-balling right now) - and if they pass, they get to prominently display CM-Certified Ethical Operator Seal or something?

If the program got big enough, players might ask affiliates WHY they aren't CM-certified - boy, that would be way down the line, I reckon - but could be a pretty awesome day the first time a player asks an affiliate that tough question....

~~~ / dream sequence ~~~

[chayton]

I'm just a player, not an affiliate - the closest I've come to promoting any casino is posting here when they do something nice that shows they appreciate my custom, or if I have information that I think would be beneficial to other members who play there or are thinking of playing there, but I don't get paid to do it.

I read all the threads about everything although to be honest I just skim the ones about Rival casinos since I'm in Canada and can't play them now anyhow - I can't even play for fun to confirm technical glitches (which I remember Rival had a TON of!) But the rest I read, and when there's an issue with a casino regarding fairness of the games or payment problems, I don't play at those casinos until the issue is resolved - if the issue isn't resolved (to MY satisfaction) I close my account. As a player, what else can I do?

[silcnlayc]

Believe me I am familiar with all these events but what as a player can I actually do?

And that is one of the problems...when you have to ask, what a player can do..then there is no hope in convincing you that you are in control of your money, NOT the casino...money talks...take it and play at places that appreciate your business...this will put the others on notice and if enough players, use their money to control a casinos behaviour, we just might see a difference...that is what you can do...

(Note: when the word "YOU" is used, it is meant in genreal term for all people, not just the person that asked..)

.

[JHV]

And that is one of the problems...when you have to ask, what a player can do..then there is no hope in convincing you that you are in control of your money, NOT the casino...money talks...take it and play at places that appreciate your business...this will put the others on notice and if enough players, use their money to control a casinos behaviour, we just might see a difference...that is what you can do...

(Note: when the word "YOU" is used, it is meant in genreal term for all people, not just the person that asked..)

.

I would also suggest (my opinion) that whilst what you're doing is wise chayton (wiser than I behave, I'm ashamed to say) - you could, if you wished, be vocal in regards to casinos to which you've heard negative reports from players you trust or believe have no reason to fabricate etc.

I know exactly what you mean though - I skim through lots of threads where I just don't feel qualified on commenting on. But I think as I build up knowledge over time, even if I haven't played at X casino (but heard negative things), down the track I can pitch in and say something like: "Weren't these the guys that did xxx? What that ever resolved to player's satisfaction? I think I probably wouldn't play there if it wasn't...."

...or something like that. As long as you're careful not to tarnish good casinos or word your questions carefully if you're unsure what the end result is, all information is GOOD information (so long as it's coming from an objective source).

Because players can build patterns of information over time - and the only way to do that is to continually talk and post and repeat / relate past tales etc....

[chayton]

I would also suggest (my opinion) that whilst what you're doing is wise chayton (wiser than I behave, I'm ashamed to say) - you could, if you wished, be vocal in regards to casinos to which you've heard negative reports from players you trust or believe have no reason to fabricate etc.

I know exactly what you mean though - I skim through lots of threads where I just don't feel qualified on commenting on. But I think as I build up knowledge over time, even if I haven't played at X casino (but heard negative things), down the track I can pitch in and say something like: "Weren't these the guys that did xxx? What that ever resolved to player's satisfaction? I think I probably wouldn't play there if it wasn't...."

...or something like that. As long as you're careful not to tarnish good casinos or word your questions carefully if you're unsure what the end result is, all information is GOOD information (so long as it's coming from an objective source).

Because players can build patterns of information over time - and the only way to do that is to continually talk and post and repeat / relate past tales etc....

Pina is really good at that, she has a mind like a steel trap, that girl - she remembers everything! And she can find the relevant posts too!

There have been quite a few cases since I've been a member here when a person comes into this forum, starts talking about how XX casino ripped them off, everyone jumps on the bandwagon and starts taking the casino rep to task, then the OP does a PAB and it turns out that they had multiple accounts or they were linked to a fraud ring or they didn't read the bonus terms (or they didn't understand what "on a payline" means ) and so the casino is well within their rights to close the account or not pay out or whatever they did. In a LOT of those cases (especially the frauds) the player STILL thinks the casino owes them, so it's never resolved to the player's satisfaction.

For instance every knows that iNetBet is a pretty decent (albiet tight) casino - if I came strolling in one day and complained that they stole my winnings and made up a believable story about it - if I could convince other people that my story was true, and the other people went to a bunch of other forums and told people "oh don't play at iNetBet, they're a bunch of crooks - they owe a gazillion dollars to poor chayton over at the CM forum."

But then later on it turns out that I'm really a guy named Vince (and a woman named Marilyn ) who's connected to a fraud ring in Thailand and I used a stolen credit card and I ate a puppy and my PAB gets thrown out and CM and Max call me names in front of the whole forum and throw me out on my ass....but by then the damage is done, maybe the people who went to the other forums haven't been following the whole thread, so they don't know that "poor chayton" is really the big crook who lied and tried to blackmail iNetBet by using CM as a club, and they're still badmouthing iNetBet all over the place.

Not only THAT, but then I make multiple accounts under different names and I run around and blabber away to anyone who will listen that iNetBet really DID rip off "poor chayton" and that CM is either a.) working on the case and has the casino in a choke hold and they're going to pay the gazillion dollars and then have to declare bankruptcy or b.) he's sold his soul to the devil and iNetBet sent him on a lovely holiday with the money they owe HER, and that's why he ruled in the casinos favor.

ahem...sorry I got carried away, but you know what I mean. Just because a player comes in and complains, doesn't necessarily mean they have something to complain about - people that aren't affiliates have ulterior motives too. There have also been posts made that say that a specific casino should be rogued because the person has made several deposits without cashing out or getting ahead.

When there's a PROVEN issue (like multiple players having withdrawals held or when there's a software issue or just plain Virtual-type roguishness) or when the casino has been rogued by CM then it's a different story. Then I'll definately warn people off.

BTW, if anyone from iNetBet reads this, no offence - it was the first 'legit' casino that came to my mind!