Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating

[spearmaster]

I don't expect anything to come of it based on his statement alone, but I do actually believe this player encountered an improbable house advantage in this game and understand his reasons for not disclosing his information. Considering this game was actually proven to be unfair recently, I think your statement about prior data being irrelevant is completely out of line.

Prior data is not the issue AT ALL. Whether we believe it or not he still needs to give us some reasonable evidence that there might have been a problem.

I think this is a poor analogy. To me a more appropriate one would be "You find an unauthorized transaction on your credit card statement. Should you check previous months and see if there are more suspect charges?"

Your analogy may apply to a player, for sure. EH could themselves decide that they DO want to do a three-year audit - but that's their decision. I do not see the need for it and I am not going to press for it.

The longer we debate this issue, the longer it takes for me to do what I need to do to resolve the real issue. Which will it be? You want me to continue debating, I am happy to do so. But I would rather just get the other stuff over and done with if that's all right by all of you.

If you think it would be productive, perhaps you should focus on that and provide something solid that supports your claim. No offense, but I think you would be fare better if you could come up with something plausible and verifiable to back up your conclusions.

ummm.. that's what I would LIKE to do if I don't keep getting sidetracked?

[spearmaster]

Ted, you seem to speak freely for English Harbour. Have you been in communication with them since the conference?

Only just now by IM - when I discovered that one of them was in the car accident. I am not speaking on their behalf, as I have been pointing out all along - I am telling you what has happened since.

[soflat]

The longer we debate this issue, the longer it takes for me to do what I need to do to resolve the real issue. Which will it be? You want me to continue debating, I am happy to do so. But I would rather just get the other stuff over and done with if that's all right by all of you.

You might as well 'resolve' it.

If they haven't supplied any evidence by now, we ain't never gonna get it.

[spearmaster]

You might as well 'resolve' it.

If they haven't supplied any evidence by now, we ain't never gonna get it.

That's what I hope to do as soon as I can - resolve it. Only a few questions need answering, plus my sample code needs to be written, and diagram is almost complete.

I will try my best to get this done in the next two days - but if not I have to fly to Manila for a couple of days in which case it will be next week - sorry for the delays.

[mitch]

This silence from the Casino and OddsOn is disturbing me more and more.

Perhaps they are relying on the old premise that they are innocent until proven guilty. However, in the UK, if a possible offence is put to someone they are cautioned that if they fail to mention something that they subsequently rely on for their defence in court then this may harm their defense.

This clause in the caution was introduced fairly recently because clever criminals and their compliant lawyers were using the 'right' of silence to try and make the prosecution guess what issues they needed to look at and confirm, they would then try and ambush the prosecution in court with new material that the prosecution would be unable to verify. Many heavy criminals evaded justice because of this.

I find that people who refuse to answer questions when interviewed under caution have almost always got something to hide.
Innocent people are normally only too willing to answer questions. If they are telling the truth why not?

Lets be honest there is a possible offence here.
There is no doubt that the casino was using cheating software. The only question at issue is whether this was an innocent mistake or deliberate fraud.

When originally they responded about the issue their answer was totally misleading and could not possibly accord with the known facts of the case.
This again could have been innocent due to a hurried and not fully considered reply. However, it could have been a deliberate attempt to mislead.

Since then there has been total silence on all the questions (a lot of them perfectly reasonable ones ) raised by their customers and other interested parties.

WHY?

They apparently have not opened up their logs to an independant firm of auditors. Why not? Whats the big deal? I can go onto many Casino sites and find monthly reports by firms like Price Waterhouse Cooper reporting on player payouts game by game from that casino. These reports can go back a long way.

EH are surely not relying on just Spear. He has access to only part of the picture not the whole picture.

EH had better get their arse in gear if they are going to recover their reputation.

Roguedom surely is looming the way things are panning out.

Mitch

[spearmaster]

Perhaps they are relying on the old premise that they are innocent until proven guilty.

I opined somewhere (can't remember) that this type of issue would naturally force people to assume guilty until proven innocent and that I would not blame anyone for taking this stance. And to be dead honest, this is the premise I operated under when I asked them to show me the code.

They apparently have not opened up their logs to an independant firm of auditors.

I believe that the Wiz is the auditor, as he certifies them with his "Certified Fair Gaming" seal. It's not PwC or Ernst & Young, but in my eyes the Wiz' certification is actually better because he understands gambling and the math behind it.

EH are surely not relying on just Spear. He has access to only part of the picture not the whole picture.

I'd say I have access to most, if not all, of the picture. It would be very difficult for me to render a fair opinion without the whole picture, and very unfair of me to even offer an opinion at all with only part of the picture.

[Linus]

...in that case the couple have some commitment to each other - you can't replace years of love, memories, possessions owned together...

Dude. I don't know who you're married to, but if my wife caught me cheating, a last will and testament might be in order... but explanations would be entirely beside the point!

[AceMan76]

Whether we believe it or not he still needs to give us some reasonable evidence that there might have been a problem

You are making a simple request much too complicated. It is about customer relations and establishing honesty. You are caught up in "relevance" and "evidence" . . . that is a great PR strategy They were caught with an unfair game in an industry known for its shenanigans. It is incumbent upon them to go the extra mile to restore their reputation.

Unless you work for EH, your thoughts on providing the game logs are "irrelevant" to me. I will also say this, and this is just my opinion, if I was EH, I would be asking you to shut the heck up because you sure are not helping their image any.

[Vesuvio]

The longer we debate this issue, the longer it takes for me to do what I need to do to resolve the real issue. Which will it be?

1) Requests for past data aren't aimed at you, Spear. We're appealing to EH - they can read and post without having to go through an intermediary. If you seriously don't think past data would be of any benefit here (even in strengthening EH's case) that's your opinion, but it's beside the point.

2) Assuming EH provided data and it showed rigging had also taken place in the past you could take a holiday as the present code would be irrelevent. We'd have resolved the issue and saved both time and hundreds of thousands of words of inconclusive debate. So the argument that requests for data are delaying anything is somewhat dubious.

Anyway, feel free just to finish your report. If EH don't want to provide data that's their choice - it's not up to you to explain their actions.

[soflat]

EH never provided the data the players requested. They only complied with The Wizard of Odds and Casino Meister requests because those are the two entities that could rogue them. EH doesn't seem to give a hoot about convincing players, just avoiding roguedom.