Rogue Poker Affiliates - Response to Jetset in Other Thread

[dominique]

I don't think most established affiliates have any problem comping anyone who spends a lot of money playing - be it Poker, Casino or Bingo. Just contact your affiliate.

I personally have no problem paying personal attention, finding the best places to play and spoiling the heck out of any high roller, handing out comps and presents and whatever I can think of.

High rollers of any type can easily be spoiled twice, once by the poker room, casino or bingo hall and once by the affiliate who will take special care of them.

Giving discounts and special service to good customers is nothing new - all industries everywhere do it.

It's the chasing after people, pulling them out of their established accounts and the math of caring for large numbers of people who only marginally benefit from the association that is a problem.

Rake back in my opinion is an attempt to pull these players away from the usual affiliates. The more affiliates get into the rake back field, the more criminal activity you will see. The number of high rollers is somewhat finite, but the number of people trying to make a buck online is ever growing. That results in unfair competition methods, aquisition of players who have nothing to gain and everything to lose because the rake back to them is negligible but the possibility of being kicked out of their favorite room for multiple signups is big.

I also don't think it is a particularly viable business model. The competition among rake back affiliates is fierce and results in many problems, such as stolen website content and all kinds of underhanded tactics. It also means that affiliates will continue to underbid each other until squeezed out. Plus many just walk away at some point, leaving players high and dry. I think it is a very difficult way to try to make a living.

I see poker addict as trying to give exposure to some more established rake back affiliates - that makes a lot of sense to do. It keeps the situation above board and lends credibility as long as the affiliates renting space are thoroughly screened, don't engage in criminal conduct, don't hire others to engage in criminal conduct, and are in it for the long term. A rake back place one can trust.

Most of the affiliates opposed to rake back see it as a criminal element and bad for their reputation and business.

[Freudian]

Most of the affiliates opposed to rake back see it as a criminal element and bad for their reputation and business.

Exactly what crime is committed?

My play has a monetary worth. A quite substantial monetary worth, in fact. An affiliate that understands that and is willing to share the worth with me get my action. He is happy. I am happy. The site is happy because they get a massive MGR every month.

If the affiliate I signed up under on another skin in the same network doesn't like it, tough. He has already made money on me. He has zero reason to complain. As I see it affiliates trick people into what they want to be lifetime servitude by not explaining exactly how an affiliate benefits from me signing up under him. Meanwhile, the rakeback affiliates are completely honest about what is happening. The complaining affiliates aren't on any moral high ground here.

[dominique]

I don't think you read the thread.

There is not an affiliate alive who won't spoil you rotten if you identify yourself.

That is totally not the point.

[Freudian]

I don't think you read the thread.

There is not an affiliate alive who won't spoil you rotten if you identify yourself.

That is totally not the point.

Ah, then you aren't against my affiliate spoiling me rotten by kicking back 25% of my MGR after all.

You still haven't told us what the crime is.

[pokeraddict]

I think the criminal element that was refered to was the certain small % of affiliates who promise rakeback (or other comps) to lure players only to disappear.

[Freudian]

I think the criminal element that was refered to was the certain small % of affiliates who promise rakeback (or other comps) to lure players only to disappear.

Which basically isn't much worse than the affiliates that never tell the player they get a chunk of the players rake over the lifetime of the account to start with. At least when you get screwed by a rakeback affiliate you can stop playing on that account to shut off the income stream to the bad affiliate and I am pretty sure that disgruntled players don't hesitate to contact the site to blow the whistle on scamming affiliates.

But sure, there are scammers out there. That doesn't mean that rakeback is bad. Just that scamming is bad. Sites like Rakeback Review definately does a good job of helping directing players towards serious affiliates.

[pokeraddict]

Well I dont know that I would call non rakeback affiliates rogue but you do have a few good points. Keep in mind that many affiliates buy or produce content that costs money, other sites are magazines or new feeds etc. They need the affiliate income to afford these extras that make them different from a banner farm. Also keep in mind Party, Paradise and Poker Stars forbid and make just about impossible to pay rakeback. In fact as far as I know Poker Stars pays their affiliates a one time signup bonus (CPA) and that is it so rakeback there is impossible.

Yes I feel that an affiliate that sets up a banner farm is not doing their job, on the other hand calling affiliates that use the proceeds to produce content are using their profits to benefit players as well.

Another thing to consider is that you know about rakeback because you frequent forums, many dont know what it is or how to get it, on the other hand they easily find large mags like Cardplayer and find a great bonus and to them that is great. It really depends I guess on whether your site appeals to casual players or serious pros or semi pros. Obviously however I may have some bias on rakeback

Thank you for the compliment on my site.

[cashmirrors]

As a player I love rakeback (and I love your site pokeraddict - since I've been burned in the past by shady rakeback con artists).

In fact, one of the big problems I have with the CAP forums is their blanket opposition to rakeback. Which is why I've stayed out of the discussions on rakeback over there (I think).

Anyway, I'm going to go on the offensive here, and not mince words. I apologise in advance for offence I probably will cause.

I find CAP's anti-rakeback positon greedy, and closed minded.

The affiliate's payments from the poker site are theirs to do with as they wish. I can pass the payments on to players, I can give them to charity, I can give them back to the poker site (because Anurag Diksh*t isn't rich enough already), whatever - it's MY money and if I want to share it with my signups, I can and should be allowed to. Just because you are too greedy to consider sharing your commissions does not mean I should be banned from doing it.

I do not see the difference between spending your affiliate revenue on traditional advertising and promotion to bring in new players and spending it on. Just because the affiliates from a casino background did not get their heads around it first does not mean it is evil. Rakeback is just another marketing tool, just like PPC advertising.


[for the record, I do not currently run a rakeback program, however I do have a couple rakeback accounts at some sites]

Maybe I have misinterpreted their position, and like I said, I apologise for offence, this wasn't intended to be a personal attack, I just enjoy strong language.

Yes, I oppose player-poaching (and I have stayed loyal to my original party affiliate even though he probably got me on a CPA plan 3 years ago) and the guy who has 17 accounts is a cheating moron. I would be VERY surprised to learn this was because of rakeback though. The need to try and cheat the system is reduced because you don't need to create gnome accounts to get bonuses - you still get paid for your play no matter how much you play). My thought was that trying to blame the non-WSOP trip on rakeback was actually a better argument to ban non-rakeback affiliates since you know rakebackers are on MGR and not encouraging chasing deposit bonuses :P

Another argument in favour of allowing rakeback is that if we (the affiliates) let the rooms dictate how we're doing business on this matter and some affiliates openly support the rooms screwing over other affiliates (and rakeback affiliates were getting screwed by RETROACTIVE changes to Ts and Cs by some rooms) then it sets a very dangerous precedent.

What's next? Sites with honest reviews being banned because they are taking business from the banner farms packed with copy written by the casino's sales department?

I'm not saying Dominique runs a banner farm, everything I've seen from her suggests she's a much nicer person than I am, and has high quality websites. Unfortunately she's just become the representative of the anti-rakeback position, which as you might have guessed, I strongly oppose.

One more apology for the road, I've been ridiculously cranky today, which is why I am hanging out in forums rather than doing important stuff, and poor Dominique's copped an earful of less than polite language from me. I hope I've made my point though and I am sorry for any offence I caused.

[pokeraddict]

Another argument in favour of allowing rakeback is that if we (the affiliates) let the rooms dictate how we're doing business on this matter and some affiliates openly support the rooms screwing over other affiliates (and rakeback affiliates were getting screwed by RETROACTIVE changes to Ts and Cs by some rooms) then it sets a very dangerous precedent.

Yes this is a big problem IMO. I know of several VERY large Party affiliates that had permission in writing to offer rakeback at Party (under a gift certificate program which is something Party was never opposed to until recently) and all at a sudden Party pulled the plug. Much of this was due to the discussions at CAP about one in particular. I am sure if the affiliates that had something in writing in that discussion from any AM or program and suddenly this changed without notice and retroactive this would create a riot but instead it was encouraged that Party actually do this to these affiliates with agreements, ones who were not even paying cash.

Party also tried this with Pokernow, a skin they now have absorbed. Party took all signups away from affiliates regardless of whether they were rakeback or not and stopped paying period. This is another example of Party retroactively changing affiliate T&C's. When this first hit it was on the day payments were due! No warning at all. You did not have to be a rakeback affiliate to not get paid. Some small affiliates got paid, most big ones did not. Luckily as far as I know all got paid even though it took months but everyone lost their signups.

As I said before I believe it is up to the affiliate. I am not an affiliate but obviously have a stake in it. I also have total respect for those that do not go that route. Affiliates can use the money for advertising, content, freerolls or whatever I dont care. If you did not promise rakeback to a signup you are under no obligation to pay it and if a player gets poached then I agree that is BS.

[pokeraddict]

I have another big point about rakeback. Lets say you sign up a player and he plays 5/10. He deposits $1000 and gets a $200 bonus. He is a -.5BB/100 loser. If he plays 800 hands a day (about 12 table hours so multi tabling gets that way down in time) at the end of the month he is bust and often will not be back, at least not for a long time. You as an affiliate just made about $1800 at 30%. If you kicked back 25% rakeback this player can now reload about $1500 for next month and play again. He made a profit or his hobby and so did you. Next month he gets down to $200 or so but generates the same rake, this month without the bonus to deduct. Now he gets $1750 and you get $250 or so. This player keep playing and after several months you have made back the initial affiliate pay AND you have a happy player still playing to create more rakeback. These numbers are just estimates and out of thin air to be used only as an example of a middle limit player.

The above example is what baffles me when Party and Paradise are so against rakeback. Why would Party rather a player not get this money? When a player busts that is no more rake, if you give him the rakeback reload he is happy and keep playing generating more rake and keeping more tables alive. Now they have the money going to affiliates and not going back into the cashier system and the players running for the skins to get rakeback. It just doesnt seem bright at all. Sure they think they will crush rakeback, maybe they will on their network but not without a nasty battle they may not be willing to fight all the way, one that will leave players and many affiliates pissed off. Party of course feels they are the only game in town. You can tell the skins have a much better grasp on what is going on. The following will tell you just how stupid Party Poker is as if we needed more proof.

I just moved and Party Poker wanted me to send them a faxback to change my address so I could get some of their items in their store and because I like to have the info at places correct in case there is ever a dispute later. They wanted my DL (doesnt have correct address anyway on it but they said that didnt matter) and a utility bill. I always use Neteller and have had an account with them for years. I only play tournaments there and I refused to go through the hassle for something that did not even involve a cashout and cashed out all of my money. All of the other skins, any other poker room, Neteller, my bank and my credit cards all allowed me to either do it over the phone or on the internet. How come I can change my address on my no limit AMEX on the internet but Party Poker requires me to go to a Kinkos and fax them a drivers license with the wrong addres on it when it does not even involve a cashout? Pure stupidity, and they lost $2500 worth of action because of it. I talked to 3 people and they all had this stupid answer.

Sorry I know that is off topic but just an example of how some places cant grasp customer service, much less logical marketing.