Daniel Negreanu Cheating ???

[4 of a kind]

Read this article today in a New York newspaper about the hole cam shots. I've been watching some of the WSOP on ESPN and noticed of course you can't see the hole cards till the hand is over.

Apparently, it's on a 30 minute delay when the whole cards are actually showed when the hand is over.

Negreanu was having a friend texting him while playing at the table gathering information on a certain players actions.

I don't know about you but getting help from the outside and being able to gain information that could be used in real time, even if it's 30 minutes later, I view as cheating.

[anniemac]

Not cheating in my book. Technology has reached the poker tables instead of having a friend with a pencil and paper write down the tells. Little gray area about how ethical it might be and how other players might react and would probably piss off some folks pretty bad. You can bet he's not the only one doing it.

[4 of a kind]

I disagree with your point, personally I think this gives a player a great deal of helpful unfair information. Even if an observer was able to talk to friends playing at live tables only during game breaks, exposing what cards their opponents were actually holding because they just saw it on TV is just as bad. Your still getting inside info about a game still in progress in real time, even if it's every two hours. Tournaments like the WSOP go on for several days and against the same players. I can't see how this 30 minute delay experiment could ever be used again.

If this tactic was considered fair then you're taking away one of the arts of a talented player. Sometimes a player may want to show the bluff trying to tilt a player. Other and most times a player will decide to muck his bluff after being folded too.

Their is no rule that says everyone that wins a hand must show their cards at the end of a hand if everyone folded to him. Part of playing good poker is being able to bluff without being detected.

Personally I think he's a piece of crap for taking advantage of a situation that certainly won't be around for long.

If pokerstars offered him access to a super user account being able to see other players hands like the Absolute scandal, would that be okay since that to would be considered modern technology?

[4 of a kind]

In addition this idiot from ESPN "Horowitz" said it didn't matter since the bluffer knows you know he knows 30 minutes later, obviously is only concerned about ratings, and knows nothing about poker.

I remember seeing a hand on poker after dark when one of the other pros offered 5k to Phil Ivey to show his hand if it was better then Jacks; after an opponent folded the pot to Phil Ivey. Ivey actually had queens then mucked without showing losing 5k. Of course 5k to Ivey is tip money, and maybe a little posturing, but maybe not. Maybe he could win a lot more then 5K if he kept his opponents in check. After all, it was a high stakes game with real money.

I still think that bringing any type of technology to a live game that's directly related to altering your game as a result of using it, should be banned. Live play is a game based on what's between your ears. It's live play, not the fn internet! Shit, we might as well bring our lap tops and flop them on the table. We won't even have to do basic math any longer.

[kidice]

Remember when Hellmuth wore headphones? That was considered as a possible means of receiving info from a confederate and the practice was subsequently banned during the WSOP as I recall. I highly doubt Phil was, or ever would resort to that- He just preferred music to the nauseous table babble surrounding him. The true beauty of the game is each individual relying solely on his own skills and intuitions, coupled with the infinite complexities random distribution of cards and personalities brings.
Here we have a clear case of 2 (or more) against one. Forget about the 30 minute delay, that's irrelevant. ONE person per hand- that rule stands at every L.A. casino I've ever played at. It is as standard as: "show one, show all". Both are intended to maintain equality regarding the play of the hands.
In my opinion, (and iv'e been playing poker 41yrs, 2 professionally, over 20yrs in casinos) is that all personal communication devices should be OFF during play. If you must use your phone, you must LEAVE THE TABLE and post/fold is in effect a minimum of one hand or even until your button has passed- making it too expensive to have any value. Any incoming calls during play for a player can be received only on the house phones, (as a player's will be off) which again would require leaving the table. I mean seriously, could you imagine if this were allowed to continue? we'd be watching videos of the WSOT (world series of texting) with everyone paying more attention to cell phones than hole cards! I'm amazed Daniel N would see nothing wrong here.
I do realize the mentioned exchange of information may take place at the break with non-active cohorts recording other players' actions, then handing it off to their live players; However, by that time this info may not be very useful due to table consolidation or the observed player being knocked out.

The commercial success of televised poker is entirely dependant on the ability to peek at the players' cards, it's a shame it may contribute to the failure of fair play within the game itself.

(And don't even get me started about online player-tracking software!)

[luarod]

I agree with 4 of a kind and kidice. What he did is ugly. He obviously is getting a unfair advantage over the other players.

And I agree that the 30 mins delay doesn't matter... if a tournament is long enough, he is gathering information that could be useful to beat the other players.

[silcnlayc]

Here, I will disagree. I am a horse race enthusiast and I play the thoroughbreds and sulkies online.

Each and everyone of the horses I play have previous races shown on their page which one can watch before placing a bet and how they fared. It also shows what horses they ran against previously and what place they came in against these horses. It is no different than this IMO.

How does one figure out which horse to play and how to play them (in bets) unless they know just how they have run previously? One needs to know what the horses weaknesses and strengths are before placing that bet.

To become a good horse player, you must know these things just as a good poker player needs to know what the previous hand transpired to help strenthen his stand in the poker world and needs to know how another played against him. We are talking about the past play just as in horses. If it was done DURING play, it would be a different story in my opinion.

So, a good poker player or even a horse player needs to know what has transpired in the past, to achieve the present results to make a win. I have had many wins in the thousands by studying the past races and adjusting my play. Why would anyone think it so bad for a cardplayer to do the same? Just wondering.

Just as they said, how does one learn if not studying the past? The good player will win. Just that simple. Just as in horse racing, if you do not look to the previous races...your shooting in the dark...I choose to learn and win, just as the poker pros do. I feel there is nothing wrong with that at all.


My father gave me tip a long time ago and I still use it to this day...always bet on the grey horses and if there are none then the one that dropped its pies right before the race..and it still works! That is the horses tell in horse land whether it be thoroughbreds or sulkies..
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[silcnlayc]

I agree with 4 of a kind and kidice. What he did is ugly. He obviously is getting a unfair advantage over the other players.

And I agree that the 30 mins delay doesn't matter... if a tournament is long enough, he is gathering information that could be useful to beat the other players.

But so can the others. or maybe they do and have and haven't owned up to it as Daniel has.

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[PlexRep]

Sorry Anniemac, but it looks like you're going to be in the minority here.

Look at it this way.... if we're both at the same TV table, and play there for together for a few hours.... during the last half hour of play I know what type of hands you fold and against what type of raises. If you don't think this is an unfair advantage, how about this...

Come play poker with me. For the first hour or two show me every hand you get, including the ones you fold. Then don't change your style of play and play against me for an hour and see how we do. I say don't change, as I'm assuming the other players in this case were fairly clueless as to what was happening. I doubt Ngreanu was telling them!

The only way to level the field in a 30 min delay game is strictly ban any form of communication till the tournament is over, or have everyones hands from 30 mins ago flash up on the jumbotron for everyone to see (which is, of course, madness)

[PlexRep]

always bet on the grey horses and if there are none then the one that dropped its pies right before the race.

I love this! what a great system. I'm off to the track and as soon as I see a grey horse 'drop its pies' i'm betting the lot.