More eCOGRA Seals Awarded

[dave_r]

Let's not forget....

2 eCogra approved casinos that have shown ROGUE casino behaviror in the past:

RiverNile
and Golden Riviera

Also, the Fortune Lounge group, which in my personal opinion is guilty of semi-rogue behavior right now. I got blacklisted from this group for winning way to much there, and after following all terms/conditions to the letter and emailing the VP there, they are using every excuse and lie in the book. Looks like I don't have a screenshot of wagering req's 3 months ago, but I will be complaining to eCogra and got2bet anyway.

[jpm]

If this is true, then its not really a random number, but a random WEIGHTED number. In my book, that is called rigged.

"Random number generators work in the following fashion:
1. Take a range of fractions (usually between 0 -1) and run the random function on the range.
2. Then apply this fraction to the actual range of numbers that you are interested in (e.g. in a card game with 4 decks the probability of each card coming up decreases by a factor of 4)
3. What you can do to influence the outcome is to weight the outcome based upon some other event by also applying a variable to the function you create that generates the outcome.

If you want it to be truly random you can weight the values based upon some value, which is infinitesimal such as the current server time down to microseconds.

By the same token you can also pass a blank variable, which will register as a NULL value, and then at any point in time to weight the outcome values upwards or downwards, you can then pass a non-null variable and this will then skew the outcome of the randomness.

Basically this is how the Random Number Generator (RNG) works:

1. Client software connects to the port on the Gamingserver.
2. Client software requests a game that player wants.
3. Player requests to be dealt or to spin
Client software connects to gaming server and asks for a random number to be generated on a specific port.
4. Based upon the weighting of the RNG the result will come back as within probability or skewed.
5. On the MGS Gaming server the following parameters are passed to the RND: game, game type, time (hh:mm:ss:ss.sss) and client parameters request # etc. The MGS Gaming server RNG service can be weighted according to a variable that is usually left blank.
6. Request result is then recorded and sent back to the client."

[jpm]

Maybe so, but the algorithms used are kept secret.

Any statistical analysis could be manipulated if you know the methodology. Keeping it secret is not a problem in my mind. I'm sure it took many people quite a while to derive the methodology. If they just make it public, anyone else can use it for their own version of eCOGRA without doing a big chunk of the homework. It'd be like requiring Pepsi or CocaCola to make their formula public. Or requiring the IRS to publish how it determines who will be audited. Those who are cheating will be sure to modify their behavior to avoid setting off the audit alert if they know exactly what is being monitored/analyzed.

Why? If the method is robust, it cannot be manipulated even if you know how it works. The security of the system lies in its design. For example, the cryptographic protocols used in ATMs or in e-commerce are publicly available, they have been scrutinised by experts. You can also have a go at trying to crack them.

[GrandMaster]

Maybe so, but the algorithms used are kept secret.

Any statistical analysis could be manipulated if you know the methodology. Keeping it secret is not a problem in my mind. I'm sure it took many people quite a while to derive the methodology. If they just make it public, anyone else can use it for their own version of eCOGRA without doing a big chunk of the homework. It'd be like requiring Pepsi or CocaCola to make their formula public. Or requiring the IRS to publish how it determines who will be audited. Those who are cheating will be sure to modify their behavior to avoid setting off the audit alert if they know exactly what is being monitored/analyzed.

You can generate very good random numbers with published algorithms. Check out www.random.org, especially www.random.org/essay.html and the links there, for real information on random numbers as opposed to what dave_r wrote.

Statistical analyis cannot be manipulated as easily as you think, and it is really hard to fake true randomness. Do you really think that if they told us they were applying certain tests to randomly chosen blocks of random numbers, it would enable the casinos to fake data, since they would not even know which numbers to fake? There are several tests for randomness, if you were trying to pad biassed data to make it pass the chi square test, it would be difficult not to mess up the entropy test and the correlation test.

The argument for secrecy just does not wash. I simply asked for more information so that I can make an informed decision on the aspects of the project I am qualified to assess. They can certainly keep the details of the implementation secret. If I go to the doctor, I expect the doctor to tell me what sort of test he wants to do and why and what the results mean. Even equipped with all this information, I still won't be able to set up another doctor's office, but I feel much better as a patient.

[jpm]

But the doctor has years of training and experience developing his skills, he's not following a set formula or blueprint like you could with this methodology or the pepsi formula.

If you knew the exact methodology you sure could skew the numbers your way pretty simply I think... First, since you supply the data they are using in their methodology, you run through it yourself and see how it looks. If it doesn't look good, you have a couple of house players login and do whatever is necessary (win $$ at particular games) to make the numbers line up to what you want the auditors to see. Since they are house players, you're not losing anything if they need to win to skew things favorably. That's how I'd do it if I were running an unscrupulous casino and knew the exact methodology used to check up on me.

[jetset]

Jeez, Dave - yet another "Microgaming is the devil incarnate" conspiracy theory.

Is it possible that the reason MGS casinos are first up with the Seal is merely because they applied first, and that there is nothing Machiavellian in the independent directors' decision to award Seals in the order that the applicants qualified?

Your post contradicts itself later on by surmising that other software providers will receive the Seal, too. I'm sure that will be the case, so there goes your theory on MGS exclusivity.

I am not qualified to argue, nor will I try to, your observations on how the RNG system works and your theories on how the TGTR might be sidetracked by the many quality and trouble free casinos that use PwC. I suspect that, as usual there is a logical refutation to your extreme views but that will have to come from someone else with the requisite knowledge.

In the meantime I am personally far more comfortable with the idea that a large, respected and multi-national professional business services outfit like PwC has staked its reputation on this TGTR system for many years than I am with your biased personal accusations against Microgaming, Moshal and for that matter the casinos.

You continue to try and discredit the only strong and independent (yes - INDEPENDENT) player protection body currently available to the players - eCOGRA. One that is already proving itself and one that has an upfront and comprehensive regulatory regime that is being applied by a third party inspection process.

Grandmaster's more reasoned approach seeking further information is far more palatable to me but imo JPM makes some very good points in the debate as to whether an independent professional organisation like PwC can disclose the inner workings of its TGTR and the dangers inherent in doing so. The decision on whether to do so I guess is PwC's because it is their property, their business and their reputation.

But to dismiss the entire eCOGRA initiative on grounds that the TGTR is not acceptable in a technical sense (I think most of the detractors have conceded that MGS and CON software is largely fair and honest) is going too far.

Grandmaster, I'm sincerely assuming that your qualifications are relevant to assessing the TGTR process in asking the following question. Exactly what sort of expert verification would you consider satisfactory, and who would you respect as such a verification authority ?

[jetset]

Let's not forget....

2 eCogra approved casinos that have shown ROGUE casino behaviror in the past:

RiverNile
and Golden Riviera

Also, the Fortune Lounge group, which in my personal opinion is guilty of semi-rogue behavior right now. I got blacklisted from this group for winning way to much there, and after following all terms/conditions to the letter and emailing the VP there, they are using every excuse and lie in the book. Looks like I don't have a screenshot of wagering req's 3 months ago, but I will be complaining to eCogra and got2bet anyway.

I see, DaveR does not think eCOGRA is worth a damn but he's going to use them anyway to resolve his problem with Fortune Lounge? Actually, that's a good idea - get some non-emotional independent people working on the problem with the casino.

We've already examined the past reputation issue regarding GR in some detail earlier in this thread, so let's move on to FL and Dave's unspecified complaint against them. "Blacklisted" is pretty serious, Dave - would you care to give the full details rather than simply throw an undetailed slur out there?

Hold that - perhaps better to get your eCOGRA complaint adjudicated first before you post. Here's where you go www.ecogra.org/disputes.

[GrandMaster]

But the doctor has years of training and experience developing his skills, he's not following a set formula or blueprint like you could with this methodology or the pepsi formula.

If you knew the exact methodology you sure could skew the numbers your way pretty simply I think... First, since you supply the data they are using in their methodology, you run through it yourself and see how it looks. If it doesn't look good, you have a couple of house players login and do whatever is necessary (win $$ at particular games) to make the numbers line up to what you want the auditors to see. Since they are house players, you're not losing anything if they need to win to skew things favorably. That's how I'd do it if I were running an unscrupulous casino and knew the exact methodology used to check up on me.

Newflash: statisticians also have years of training (4-5 years for Master's level, 7-8 for PhD).

To respond to the above scenario: If the results are genuinely random, then any unbiased sample is also random. It is not enough to manipulate the overall results. You could test results of individual players or groups of players. If the game is rigged, then results would be skewed in one direction if house players are not selected, and in the other if they are. This would produce some weird statistics. I repeat, it is very hard to fake results on a large scale that pass several randomness tests. Testing and auditing can never prove that the results are truly random, only that they are consistent with being random, but if the auditing process is thorough enough then it is simply easier and cheaper to offer a fair game then to rig it and then put in the effort to produce fake results to make the numbers look right.

[rowmare]

The online casino auditing process, Total Gaming Transaction Review (TGTR) was Pioneered by Microgaming in association with PriceWaterhouseCooper. The process has since been adopted by other software providers such as Boss Media, Casino On Net and Cryptologic.

I am baffled how anyone can say that Microgaming's fairness is well established and that they doubt the credibility of TGTR........am I missing something or are they? Is this not a contradiction?

[GrandMaster]

The online casino auditing process, Total Gaming Transaction Review (TGTR) was Pioneered by Microgaming in association with PriceWaterhouseCooper. The process has since been adopted by other software providers such as Boss Media, Casino On Net and Cryptologic.

I am baffled how anyone can say that Microgaming's fairness is well established and that they doubt the credibility of TGTR........am I missing something or are they? Is this not a contradiction?

You have the first paragraph on your website. What is your source? Do you know anything about how TGTR works? I am sure that the software providers know more about it than we are told.

I am not accusing of MG of cheating, but I would like to know what TGTR involves, so that I can decide for myself whether it is really worth something. I won't trust something just because an accounting firm says that they have checked something by a secret process and the results were OK. Remember Enron, Barings Bank, (its auditors Coopers & Lybrand, now part of PwC, were found guilty of professional failings, and fined by a court in London), Equitable Life, Parmalat, just to name a few recent corporate failures.