Affiliate Union

[Webzcas]

For some reason I am unable since last night to access the GPWA Forums from my office, although I have seen the latest posts up to JTodd's comment in the thread via my iPhone.

I would like to clarify a couple of points raised by Aussie Dave made in the thread over on the GPWA:

1) I do not have a hidden agenda. I only found out a couple of days ago that Gamtrax promotes Virtual Casinos, as a result of Zebedy stating this over on the Sucks Board.

2) Whilst I believe the industry needs to come together to provide one voice for affiliates, I also strongly feel that if a union is created that it does not fragment the industry further.

In addition, whilst the principles of the union you were fronting seemed good on the surface and admirable, I felt further due diligence needed to be undertaken. Publically listing your founders one of which whom openly promotes a known rogue group did your proposed union a great disservice.

3) I note you comment that I work for Casinomeister.com - I am a moderator on the forum and do not get paid for my occasional input here. Yes Bryan is a friend of mine and yes I considered it an honour to be asked to help out. However there is no hidden agenda. Indeed, I post my opinions and my opinions only on here. Bryan was not aware of my intention to start this thread and I post representing my views and my views only.

So I want to put to bed here and now any conspiracy theories you may have regarding my involvement which led to your decision earlier on today to close the union before it opened for business.

4) I see Michael, Anthony and JTodd have now posted - I like other affiliates would like very much to see any and all correspondence you have had. Indeed Michael has asked if you can post it. I think this would be a wise thing to do for transparency sake.

Finally I would like to state that I believe what you were intending to achieve is admirable, but as you are now finding out, it is a lot harder than most envisage. The situation we ( Affiliates ) find ourselves in now is a direct result of the antics of the mismanagement of CAP by the owners of their parent company Affiliate Media.

Affiliates need to come back together as a sole cohesive unit so we are stronger again. But and this is extremely important, we also need the players on our side to achieve this. Creating a union headed up by affiliates who promote places like cool cat and other virtual clip joints, is not going to get any credibility or support from the player community. Whilst you were unaware of this, which I have no doubt it true - it proves that a lot of groundwork needs to be completed before an additional affiliate mouthpiece can be formed and work for the good of the industry as a whole.

[chalkie]

I am unsure of the real reasons for Dave deciding - without any input from any other founding members - to close the AU

Robins involvement?

No, she was asked to resign instantly the issue become apparent. Now as the AU was not open, the fact that she would not be there on opening day does not put the AU into a compromised position.

Because of the politics involved in other organisations? If there is that is!

I do not see this as a valid reason at all.

Dave has closed the AU before it even started because he was not happy with the way it was panning out as far as i can make out.

Other founding members are not happy to close the AU and will be discussing further our options in due course.

Feel free to quiz me on any aspect, i will answer as and when i can, as truthfully as i can.

[zebedy]

Maybe whatever members are left could take a short break, rethink it then come up with a plan that will try and please everyone, or atleast answer some of the questions that will get asked, or a list of how you intend to go about what you are intending to do,

IMO the AU it probably came to the forums to early, before you had a chance to research certain things,
It would be a shame if closed its doors in this short time but i think AussieDave was on to something on what he was trying to do, maybe he will have a change of heart,

[Webzcas]

Maybe whatever members are left could take a short break, rethink it then come up with a plan that will try and please everyone, or atleast answer some of the questions that will get asked, or a list of how you intend to go about what you are intending to do,

The concept is good. It is the implementation that needs to be looked at. Also based on Dave's post over on the GPWA in the early hours, I think he really needs to post the correspondence with Michael, JTodd et al. Indeed Michael has asked for this

As the tone of his post over on the GPWA implies there was a conspiracy against him.

[chalkie]

If there was a conspiracy against Dave the founders were not part of it.

I do not go with the idea that there was, however, i am not subject to it so may see it from a different light to David.

David has his reasons for doing what he has done and i will not knock him for this.

[Pinababy69]

But and this is extremely important, we also need the players on our side to achieve this. Creating a union headed up by affiliates who promote places like cool cat and other virtual clip joints, is not going to get any credibility or support from the player community.

Speaking as a player Webz, thank you for stating this. I would be more than willing to throw my full support behind any organization that not only factors player issues into the equation, but one that actually puts player concerns and issues at the forefront.

Honestly, I was excited when I read about this venture...until I got to Gamtrak's name, and then read about her having a media buy with Gambling Wages. No way in hell would I ever support any organization whose founding members accept money from a company who have built their business on years of ripping off players.

The concept is something that I have held as the "ideal" for many years now...a group of people donating their time, completely free of charge, and not making a penny in sponsorship fees, commissions, etc. Needless to say I was always hoping I would see it done in the player sector, but I thought this would be a great start. Especially if the AU were willing to listen to players, and give some weight to player experiences in relation to what constitututes a good affiliate program. What does it matter how good an affy program is...if the casino(s) that program represents make their money by ripping off players?

As has been mentioned before, we could debate all day on what constitutes a rogue casino..but when it comes to Virtual, I think all debate is pointless. They are the "standard" for rogue, and NO webmaster/affiliate who wants to be seen as ethical, should be promoting them.

I really think for something like this to be successful, you need to have at least part of the player community behind you, as Webz stated. The mess with Grand Prive beginning of this year, really showed me just how far apart the player and affiliate communities are in their thinking. Let me state right from the start, that I completely sympathize with the affiliates. I believe they were the victims of the old FU type clause, that has been used on players for years. I think what GP did to them is shameful. However, all that being said....where were all these affiliates when GP were pulling some of their shady shit on players MUCH prior to the closure of their affy accounts? Bryan rogued them back in 2006...but I don't remember seeing another high profile webmaster doing the same. Webz, Simmo..correct me if I'm wrong, because I very well could be. Point is though, they are now universally condemned for what they did to the affiliates (and correctly so)...but where is this outrage and solidarity when players get screwed over?

How can someone in one breath condemn GP, and call for their heads on a platter...and at the same time, have a huge flashing banner for Cirrus Casino on their homepage? How can you in one breath ask players to support them by not playing at a place such as GP, while at the same time, setting them up to be fleeced at the biggest criminal joint on the web? It is hypocrisy at its finest, and I will NEVER be on board with that. So, until both players and affiliates start working together for the common good, and making their goal the betterment of the industry in general, I don't see anything changing anytime soon. If affiliates want player support for their cause, then they had better start putting the players concerns and issues at the top of the list when it comes to making a list of criteria, of what makes a reputable casino/affiliate program.

[AussieDave]

Hi All,

Firstly I've handed in my private membership at the GPWA.

In so far as the AU from the time I was offered the AU position I have worked tirelessly to get this established, so too have the founding members.

In fact a little into a week of commencing I was taken to hospital by ambulance as a result of a herniated disk in my back which has left my right leg and foot numb.

I'm not a marta but people needs to understand that even with this happen I was working up to 20 hours a day trying to get the AU operational.

Hence when people start taking crack shots at not only my integrity but that of mojo, Chalkie and Greek39 and also at our motivation to start the AU, I come out shooting with both barrels.

If I'd or the founders had known about GamTrak promoting Virtual Casino Group she would definitely not have been a founding member, period.

However that choice was not mine. I was given a list of people who should be founding members by APCW Anthony, one of them was GamTrak.

At the time I held Anthony in high esteem. There was no reason for me to doubt any of the founding members given to me by Anthony.

The entire premise behind the AU being commenced came from APCW Anthony who claimed that JTodd was party to this also.

I've got it in email...

I wont regurgitate my novel like post at the GPWA but after having to wear a bucket load of crap from people who don't know that facts, and with neither Anthony, JTodd or anyone having the balls to stand up and tell it like it was, I chose to air the sordid details in public as the GPWA.

I'm sure I've pissed a few people off but people wanted to facts. As they don't wish for something to hard because you just might get it.

However my motivation to post to the GPWA was because people needed to know the facts about how the AU commenced. That did and was playing on my conscience ever since I realised that things didn't ge on the 6'th September 2009 (the facebook emails).

Frankly I'd be had, played for a stooge and the AU was set-up to fail from the beginning. For all I know GamTrak was (unbeknown to her) the AU Trojan Horse.

Reiterating it was a directive from APCW Anthony to make GamTrak a founding AU member.

Although the PM's that took place between Anthony and I at the GPWA were deleted, I'll add on Anthony's request, the emails and other PM's show the extent to which this fiasco played out.

At this point I have hard copies of all other PM's and emails.

In so far as returning to the GPWA to post this info or having anything to with the organisation that wont be happening.

Have a while back I started http://www.dodgyonlinecasinohistory.net/

I had every intention back then to commence writing about all the dodgy events that have taken place in the online casino industry since I've been around. But due to other commitment that got placed on the back burner.

So if any is interested or wants to read the facts all these will posted to that URL in the near future.

Cheers

Dave


PS Now I have made this post can you please delete my membership here as well thank you.

[Pinababy69]

PS Now I have made this post can you please delete my membership here as well thank you.

Dave, why in the world would you want to leave here? I hope you didn't misunderstand anything I wrote personally...because NONE of it was directed at you. I have zero problem with you as an affiliate, and commend you for even wanting to partake of such a venture. If it had been just you and Mojo, I would have no qualms at all about backing it 110%. And that's not a slight against Greek and Chalkie at all...I just don't know them. My problem was with Gamtrak, and as you've explained how it came to be that she be listed as a founding member, I have no problem with that at all.

I don't know the story with the GPWA and the APCW. I used to have alot of respect for JTodd and the work he did....probably still do a little bit. But he really lost me back when they did that "travel to CostaRica" thing with Gambling Wages. Their intentions may have been in the right place, but Virtual have had more than enough chances to clean up and fly straight. Now I want nothing more than to see them gone from the internet forever.

As to the GPWA, absolutely no clue really what they're all about. Yes, I read there..but that's about as far as it goes. It wouldn't really be fair for me to comment on Michael Corfman, or anyone who works there. Beyond saying, sponsor, paid program..whatever...they also list Gambling Wages on their site, which means they collect some kind of revenue from them. That in itself is enough to not give them much credibility (for me I mean). Beyond that, maybe they're great people and not as ethically challenged as some others...no idea.

But I do know you.....and don't understand why you would want to leave here? We can't keep losing the good people in this industry...and from this forum. First Rusty, now you? Please reconsider.

[AussieDave]

Hi Pina,

I'm sincerely touched that you hold me in such high esteem , thank you.

Right now I feel I've been used.
In addition my integrity has been brought into disrupt with the AU being touted by some that it was all connected back to money from day one. That self absorbed interests on part of the founders and myself was the motivation behind it.

I honestly don't know who to trust after this entire AU fiasco has ended.



Cheers

Dave

[Pinababy69]

I honestly don't know who to trust after this entire AU fiasco has ended.

Now that sentiment I can totally relate to, with some exceptions. In any event, don't close your account here right away. This is still a great forum for you to keep up to date with player issues, which is important even if you want to pursue the other site you mentioned.

At least give it a few days, and a bit of thought...then make a decision. And if you decide to attempt something like this again, let me know. Or if you'd ever like any feedback from a player perspective on the other site, I have a ton of opinions on everything.

Thanks for trying. It can be done, I know it can. It is just going to take the "right" kind of people behind it.