Washington State Slots

[ilbcnu4poker]

I presented this question to the wizzard of odds. He states that there are no guarantees that any question will be answered so I am placing it here in hopes of comments
thanks
<p>

You have answered the many questions regarding casinos ability to adjust the payout percentages from a remote areas at will and have always stated it could happen potentially but it is unlikely due to regulations and potential audits. This may be true but in washington state where I reside there are variables that are unique to our state. First you have never mention that wa, state slots aren't actual RNG based machines but a disguised version of a scratch ticket. When the decision was made to allow slots the Indians invented a slot appearing device that based it's payout on a system idential to a group of scratch tickets. By adjusting the amount of winning tickets at will couldn't these tribes effectively adjust the payouts at anytime they desired. Imagine an employee going to a pull tab bin and removing a any number of winners. Yes this would be hard pulling actual sealed tabs (can be held seen or weighed) without them being pre-tagged to show under special light or other device but in a computer program a keen developer could easily remove or replace these tickets/spins (not weighable or visible outside one operator) without any way of detection. The majority of slots you discuss are safe guarded because the RNG always guarantees there is a chance for a winner on any spin. But if you temporarily remove a few winning scratch tickets (or precieved spins) they can alter the odds greatly in their favor.
A large group of us who have played countless hours on our state slots all agree and have experienced time frames when it was almost impossible(not percieved) to win and other periods when it was much easier than the normal to win. The number of players that have experienced this is so overwhelming that it couldn't be a random result. fact The times of reduced winning ability are absolutely predictable especially during prime times when casinos could expect additional non regular guests to be gaming such as a Friday evenings between 6 and 9 pm, when special cash or prize drawings are being held or sandwiched around a casino sponsored event such as a concert or boxing match.
Wouldn't that be possible based on the type of slots used in our state? How could we expose such ruthless acts if it is factual. I also need to mention of state does take a cut of any kind from the Indians (they are required to donate 1% of the net revenues in their names to any charities of their choice and audits are rarely if ever conducted and are announced well in advance when they are done. In spite of this tiny amount requested one local casino has been found to have altered their reports three times and fined over five million dollars. Would they hesitate pulling a few tickets/slots when the casino is at 100% capacity?
You have earned the respect of countless players of all experience levels but have never tackled this question prompting us to plead for a timely response. Thanks

[lojo]

Q: Can tribal casinos manipulate the program at will?

A: If they are self regulated and have the technology, I would say YES

Do they? I dunno

At least in Oregon, the lotto machines in bars, etc. are like the 'scratch ticket' you speak of and the tribal games are something else altogether afaik. If this is the case in washington, it is two seperate questions.

I've experienced the feeling of what you are saying about high and low volume periods in tribal casinos, and also find it funny that every fifteen minutes or so 'the voice' calls out another $700, or 2500 or thousand dollar winner, but I have never seen one hit and it's funny how more often than not when they have a drawing out of tens of thousands of entries, somebody who had to be present to win, does. hmm,- not in reno, not in vegas.

I think I pay more attention to this kind of thing because I believe they are self-regulated, I don't know what the house edge is, and I really don't trust them - any more than I would trust a tax collector who only had to answer to his boss. But I play anyway.

It may be totally fair, if that wasn't a possibility I wouldn't play, and I doubt you or your friends would either

If they can, and have, they probably do. What can you do about it? Play online or fly to reno or vegas for a two-nighter.... cheapest deals are southwest from there, dirt cheap. But if you don't mind donating through a casino, where at least the tribe is in control of the proceeds, play on

[Da_Gambla]

Sometimes I think in reverse. Ok, lots of times!

B&M gambling is QUITE competitive. If you were a tribe running a gaming operation, and you COULD adjust the winnings, wouldn't you weight them towards a higher winning percentage? That would attract media attention and certainly a vast word of mouth, which would in turn generate more traffic your general direction.

Since in my mind, this would be a natural course of business growth potential, and judging how many people come away with the perception that it is equal or less chance than Vegas, I'd say it's probably a fair shake. If I'm not mistaken (I have no facts to back this up, but it sounds reasonable), the gaming commissions setup to oversee and audit Indian gaming are pretty much the same suit and ties running Vegas and Atlantic City. That's on the corporate level. On the political level, you have lobbyist who have pockets lined with Vegas and AC profits. So, if it is weighted against the player, it's not by the will of the tribes in question, again, at least in my mind. We will probably never know... But all things equal or less than equal, if that is the case, I'd much rather be in Vegas where you get all of the rush along with your gaming. Of course, others shun the fast track and prefer the Indian casinos where the pace is a bit slower.

- Keith

[lojo]

Originally Posted by Da_Gambla

Sometimes I think in reverse. Ok, lots of times!

B&M gambling is QUITE competitive. If you were a tribe running a gaming operation, and you COULD adjust the winnings, wouldn't you weight them towards a higher winning percentage? That would attract media attention and certainly a vast word of mouth, which would in turn generate more traffic your general direction.

Nope, you'd give car away when everyone was looking

Since in my mind, this would be a natural course of business growth potential, and judging how many people come away with the perception that it is equal or less chance than Vegas, I'd say it's probably a fair shake. If I'm not mistaken (I have no facts to back this up, but it sounds reasonable), the gaming commissions setup to oversee and audit Indian gaming are pretty much the same suit and ties running Vegas and Atlantic City.

That is a scary thought, and I'll leave it at that.

That's on the corporate level. On the political level, you have lobbyist who have pockets lined with Vegas and AC profits. So, if it is weighted against the player, it's not by the will of the tribes in question, again, at least in my mind. We will probably never know... But all things equal or less than equal, if that is the case, I'd much rather be in Vegas where you get all of the rush along with your gaming. Of course, others shun the fast track and prefer the Indian casinos where the pace is a bit slower

[/quote]- Keith[/quote]


Yippers, for $200 a night, a guy can fly to vegas or atlantic city from anywhere in these united states, even put his lady up in luxury. There are only two tribal casinos I ever play at for reals, Chinook Winds and Spirit Mountain. The Tribes don't give 1% to a charity because the state tells them to, they PUMP money into their communities. And they treat you like royalty on a $500 budget.(that's a sweet room, dinner twice and almost 200 bucks each to play) Vegas nor Reno can touch this for accomodations, unless you are comped.

GET OUT OF WASHINGTON, or quit playing. Your tribal casinos have been compromised. Jump on a plane (for less than you probably spend in a night) and getcher ass to vegas or reno. You are going to lose all your money if you don't quit when you are ahead anywhere, but, by gawd, do it at the Alladin where the girls scream and jump and the whole freakin place lights up when you hit a jackpot... oops that was the acid and elvis, and... but anyway Like de gambla say, you ain't seen nothin until you've at least looked out a hotel window and said, yeah. This is it. I'm here. Now let's go play! Okay, he didn't say that, but you know what I mean. It's simple, you live in a prohibitionist state, go to an airport and jump! Of course you can't smoke at the vegas airport, even in Mr. G's slot bubbles anymore, but wtf, what? You have an hour of jetlag? Forget the Indian casinos in washington, go to oregon, or go to nevada... you can't play online from home anyway. Not in the old way anyway.

If'n you wanna play you will. If you think it is all fixed, it is. You have a twenty five percent chance at Mike's in the airport. Save your money for the el cortez, where you might meet an icon. But stick to slots and roulette and you will be okay, you sinner you.

[ilbcnu4poker]

Thanks for your replies.
Still waiting to hear imput regarding my theory of the tribes ability to manipulate the winning percentage. The unique nature of these slots certainly allow more opportunity.
As far as Wa. laws our state is run by apparently blind morons. Recently the Tribes were allowed to add additional machines and raise the betting limits. Our governor approved this based on the fact the Indians were generously donating 1 million dollars to problem gambling assistance. Talk about caving in, this amounts to the Indians parting with 7/1000ths of one percent of their income. When asked why the state doesn't demand a rake of the action (which would have created an audit also) she replied that we didn't want to become dependent on that revenue. LOL
As far as the tribes themselves the bias distribution of funds has become alarming. I assisted a friend in researching his tribes business methods and like most tribes a small group is hoarding, skimming or paying themselves tremendous sums of money while the majority only benefit from annual payments as low as 500.00 per year. One Indian make an humorus but accurate statement. "We need the government to step in and investigate the tribe for the sake of the Indians. All that would take is a act of congress. Not a saying it really does.

[lojo]

Originally Posted by ilbcnu4poker

Thanks for your replies.
Still waiting to hear imput regarding my theory of the tribes ability to manipulate the winning percentage. The unique nature of these slots certainly allow more opportunity.
As far as Wa. laws our state is run by apparently blind morons. Recently the Tribes were allowed to add additional machines and raise the betting limits. Our governor approved this based on the fact the Indians were generously donating 1 million dollars to problem gambling assistance. Talk about caving in, this amounts to the Indians parting with 7/1000ths of one percent of their income. When asked why the state doesn't demand a rake of the action (which would have created an audit also) she replied that we didn't want to become dependent on that revenue. LOL
As far as the tribes themselves the bias distribution of funds has become alarming. I assisted a friend in researching his tribes business methods and like most tribes a small group is hoarding, skimming or paying themselves tremendous sums of money while the majority only benefit from annual payments as low as 500.00 per year. One Indian make an humorus but accurate statement. "We need the government to step in and investigate the tribe for the sake of the Indians. All that would take is a act of congress. Not a saying it really does.

I told you that if they could cheat and they did cheat they will cheat. You don't need the wizard for that. Some people involved in gambling cheat. It just depends on what you call cheating

Now if you have documentation that these casinos are using 'just in time inventory' software and can manipulate a machine from a kiosk, you don't need to ask the question.
YES it is possible!
Do they do it? Ask them.

I'm not going to go racial, but every dime you drop is...

Oh well, Life is short. AIm is no longer a movement, use your imagination ... cough cough cough

[GrandMaster]

Originally Posted by ilbcnu4poker

Our governor approved this based on the fact the Indians were generously donating 1 million dollars to problem gambling assistance. Talk about caving in, this amounts to the Indians parting with 7/1000ths of one percent of their income.

Are you sure you got this right? This would mean an income of $14 billion, which seems somewhat excessive.

[ilbcnu4poker]

Sorry
My math was flawed...but only slightly
the 20 tribes are projected to net 3 billion in 2007