The Palace Group refuses payment

[stuck]

The balance of my account was appropriated without explanation by casinos in The Palace Group. I am hoping that somebody out there knows a solution for my plight.

Casino name / deposit amount / final appropriated balance

Cabaret Club Casino / $6,250 / $5,900
Mummy’s Gold Casino / $5,250 / $820
Ruby Fortune Casino / $4,000 / $5,000
Spin Palace Casino / $2,500 / $9,800
Jackpots in a Flash Casino / $3,000 / $2,575
 

I previously experienced difficulties with bonuses, and so I played at all of these casinos without accepting any bonus funds. I played mostly blackjack, and when I attempted to withdraw my balance, I was ignored. I spoke repeatedly with chat support and the relative department, but was never given an explanation (or a reply from the relative department). I sent numerous emails, which also were ignored.

After seeking the help of an affiliate friend, I was able to contact the Japanese support, and finally received the following message:

“When [my ID] attempted the withdrawal, our security department determined that you had played in violation of The Spin Palace Casino user agreement clause account termination 19:3 (viii)”

I requested that they explain what exactly this meant, but I was told that “this is the final decision of the casino” and my request was denied. I seem to have little to do in the form of recourse.

I sent a complaint to ecogra, but all they did was relay the same message to me from then casino.

I have played with similar deposit amounts at other casinos, but I have never experienced a problem like this.

Before experiencing this, I was confident that the casino was legitimate due to its approval by ecogra, but is it possible that I have had the poor luck of running into a fraudulent casino business? What can I possible do now?

Please help, any ideas at all are welcome.

[chuchu59]

The best course of action is to Pitch-a-bitch with MaxD and stop posting on this case meanwhile. Purely from the info you provided you are around $3K ahead and they didnt even think of returning your deposits? This is the Palace Group not Palace of Chance so if you are completely honest you should be on course for an amicable solution.

[Osloking]

Hello, this sounds very strange, i would advice you to contact the rep for the palace group http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...ace-group.html

make sure you dont :

have more than 1 acount at each
charge back in any of the casino
bonus involved
deposited with credit card from another person

if you dont have none of these, then spin palace is in trouble.

gambatte ne

[Kotsy1]

Welcome to CM. Hope your ready for the posts. My first thought was that I found it odd that your only post here was about a withdrawal complaint. Most people at least say "hello" or at least introduce themselves. Would love to know your time frames for deposits and withdrawal requests within this group. Also your play time within each group

If it was within a short term, security may have flagged you.

Here are their terms and conditions at Spin Palace and I highlighted what you stated.

19.3 Termination of Account
Bayton Limited reserves the right to cancel the Your account for any reason whatsoever at any time without notice to You Any balance in the Your account at the time of such cancellation will be credited to Your credit card and/or sent to the You by cheque. However, the Casino reserves the right, in its unfettered discretion, to void any winnings and confiscate any balance in a Casino account in any of the following circumstances:

(i) If You have more than one active account for the Casino;
(ii) If the name on Your Casino account does not match the name on the credit card(s) used to make deposits on a Casino account;
(iii) If You participate in a Casino promotion and cashes-in before fulfilling the requirements of that particular promotion;
(iv) If You provide incorrect or misleading registration information;
(v) If You are not of legal age;
(vi) If You reside in a jurisdiction where participation in Casino games is prohibited by law;
(vii) If You have allowed or permitted (intentionally or unintentionally) someone else to play on Your Casino account;
(viii) If You have not played at the Casino on an individual basis for personal entertainment only (that is, You have played in a professional sense or in concert with other Player(s) as part of a club, group, etc.); (ix) If You have "charged back" any of the deposits made with Your credit card on Your Casino account;
(x) If You are found colluding, cheating, money laundering or undertaking fraudulent activity(xi) If it is determined by the Casino that You have employed or made use of a system (including machines, computers, software or other automated systems) designed specifically to defeat the Casino;
(xii) If You use the Website or Your account in bad faith;
(xiii) If You make statements that are sexually explicit or offensive in the chat facility, including expressions of bigotry, racism, hatred or profanity; OR
(xiv) If the Casino should become aware that You have played at any other on-line casino under any of the circumstances set out at (i) to (xiii) above.

You may have been flagged from another casino as each term and conditon applies to each other.

Chuchu and Osloking have given great advice.

[Fortuna]

(viii) If You have not played at the Casino on an individual basis for personal entertainment only (that is, You have played in a professional sense or in concert with other Player(s) as part of a club, group, etc.);

Can somebody give a definition for what `Professional Play` means ? (and specially when this term apply for when no bonus has been involved !!!)

In my opinion, if i am the kind of player which use to play long sesions and i pick only the games witht he highest payback ratio and i apply the perfect strategy for each game in part, then they can call me a `smart player`, but not a `Professional` because it is nothing that hard to look at few charts of perfect strategy and to correctly apply it on the best payout games.

I refuse to think that someone is supposed to play like a dumb monkey (mostly where no bonus involved) in order to be considered pure entertaintment player !

More than that, a Professional will never put his money where the house has an edge ! And from what I know, none of Microgaming casinos does not have +EV games, not even with gains from beig a VIP player. And how the player can get the edge if he used no bonus ? And even if he used a bonus, while the casino accepted his deposits, then they have to pay him the full balance even if he is a Professional player ! (then, close accounts or ban from future bonuses)

[Nate]

'If You have not played at the Casino on an individual basis for personal entertainment only (that is, You have played in a professional sense or in concert with other Player(s) as part of a club, group, etc.);'

We do not know the full story from the part of the Casino, however;

People play to Win - The term above is Roguish. The term can be applied at will to any player. I suggest you PAB with Max. Please read the FAQ before posting any further.

Nate

[MommyMachine]

Cabaret Club Casino / $6,250 / $5,900
Mummy’s Gold Casino / $5,250 / $820
Ruby Fortune Casino / $4,000 / $5,000
Spin Palace Casino / $2,500 / $9,800
Jackpots in a Flash Casino / $3,000 / $2,575
 

it's still early, ill prob have more to say after this caffeine hits my bloodstream but for now that's all I got.

[vinylweatherman]

This isn't poker, so even playing perfect strategy does not give a player an edge unless bonuses are played.

It seems more likely they are referring to collusion with an affiliate, which can create a net +EV result for the group as a whole, even though no individual player can ever turn a profit in the long term. It all boils down to manipulating the way the affiliate program calculates commission payments, particularly collusion to time play as a group in order to tune the variance to take advantage of the end of month cut off for commission calculations, and any negative carry over concessions. For a game with a tiny house edge and low variance, it can be surprising easy to turn a profit acting as a group through an affiliate, and splitting the proceeds between everybody.

It is this type of "professional collusion" that can take money from a casino. They may have paid the referring affiliate a fortune from the wagering, and may consider this is more than the balances. Their argument may be that identifying the players as a group allows them to assess the accounts together as a group, and recover money that has already been illicitly gained by one part of the group from balances still sitting in the accounts of others.

eCogra have already agreed with the casino's argument, so the next obvious option for review would be PAB, however if the evidence stacks up, the result will be the same.

I saw this loophole possibility almost as soon as I found out how the affiliate side worked, and at it's simplest could be done by one player acting alone by signing up through himself as an affiliate, which is why you will find that this is not allowed in the terms of almost all affiliate programs, thus the work around is to act in concert with an affiliate and hope the casino doesn't catch on too quickly.

If the casino group really ARE basing this on nothing more than an individual player acting alone depositing big, and playing Blackjack perfect strategy without bonuses or a bot, then they WOULD in my view be acting rogue. This is why a PAB is needed in order to get to the bottom of this.

[Nifty29]

This isn't poker, so even playing perfect strategy does not give a player an edge unless bonuses are played.

It seems more likely they are referring to collusion with an affiliate, which can create a net +EV result for the group as a whole, even though no individual player can ever turn a profit in the long term. It all boils down to manipulating the way the affiliate program calculates commission payments, particularly collusion to time play as a group in order to tune the variance to take advantage of the end of month cut off for commission calculations, and any negative carry over concessions. For a game with a tiny house edge and low variance, it can be surprising easy to turn a profit acting as a group through an affiliate, and splitting the proceeds between everybody.

It is this type of "professional collusion" that can take money from a casino. They may have paid the referring affiliate a fortune from the wagering, and may consider this is more than the balances. Their argument may be that identifying the players as a group allows them to assess the accounts together as a group, and recover money that has already been illicitly gained by one part of the group from balances still sitting in the accounts of others.

eCogra have already agreed with the casino's argument, so the next obvious option for review would be PAB, however if the evidence stacks up, the result will be the same.

I saw this loophole possibility almost as soon as I found out how the affiliate side worked, and at it's simplest could be done by one player acting alone by signing up through himself as an affiliate, which is why you will find that this is not allowed in the terms of almost all affiliate programs, thus the work around is to act in concert with an affiliate and hope the casino doesn't catch on too quickly.

If the casino group really ARE basing this on nothing more than an individual player acting alone depositing big, and playing Blackjack perfect strategy without bonuses or a bot, then they WOULD in my view be acting rogue. This is why a PAB is needed in order to get to the bottom of this.

AFAIK the commissions are based on the casino's net profit rather than wagering. I'm not sure if that is what you meant but just said it differently..??

[vinylweatherman]

AFAIK the commissions are based on the casino's net profit rather than wagering. I'm not sure if that is what you meant but just said it differently..??

It can be done, not guaranteed month on month profit, but the maths makes it long term +EV because of artificial boundaries used in determining end of month commissions. I could do it, although not necessarily without getting busted. Cooperation between the casino and affy program would be enough to detect such schemes pretty quickly.

I bet it has been done before, and busted by operators and programs, but is one of those things that in public is a "no comment" as it could reveal how the schemes were detected.