A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings

[GrandMaster]

Originally Posted by VegasVIP Lounge

The Vegas VIP Lounge would like to emphasise that the circumstances relating to this case are quite different from any other that it has encountered before. The players involved in these illegitimate playing activities have been both highly organised and inventive in their methods. Therefore, although their accounts will be reopened and winnings paid, the Vegas VIP Lounge Casino reserves the right to take whatever actions it sees as necessary should any of these players display any further signs of engaging in exploitative playing activities.

Please share with us what constitutes illegitimate or exploitative playing activities. If the players committed fraud, then they should not be paid, but if stayed within the T&C, then they should have been paid and then have their accounts closed. If they found a genuine loophole in the T&C, and weren't just too lucky for the casino management's liking, then the person responsible for the T&C should be sacked and a competent person hired.

[rabiddog]

Originally Posted by thelawnet

the deposit button isn't a 'donate' button.

[tim5ny]

Lies, Lies, Lies!!! How the mighty have fallen! It's a sad commentary for online gambling when even Microgaming casinos are pulling this crap. Are any/all of these players from the U.S. ?

[UKDafoe]

While their actions the past few months have been extremely questionable, Im surprised theyve decided to refund the money they seized. It suggests theyre willing to start over with a new attitude, hopefully the one that earned them everyones respect and made them eCogra and CM members. Assuming they do actually refund the money seized, they should be taken off the rogue list.

[VegasVIP Lounge]

The Vegas VIP Lounge Group understands the concern of the wider gaming community over its use of ambiguous language in referring to this group of players’ activities as ‘illegitimate, exploitative and abusive’. The casino group however cannot release further details relating to this case due to its implications for its partners and for the wider security of the Casino Group. The Vegas VIP Lounge would like to once again emphasize that it pays millions of winners every year without delay or hassle. It is a fact that wherever the Casino Group has made a genuine error, it has always done all that it can to compensate the players in question.

Unfortunately, over the past six months the Vegas VIP Lounge group has endured a number of attacks by “scammers” that abused the casino and subsequently used this forum to discredit the reputation of the Group. Again the Vegas VIP Lounge would like to stress that the activities which took place were unlike anything it has experienced before, and therefore do not fall into conventional categories of “bonus abuse” or “fraud” or “scamming”.

[GrandMaster]

Originally Posted by VegasVIP Lounge

Unfortunately, over the past six months the Vegas VIP Lounge group has endured a number of attacks by “scammers” that abused the casino and subsequently used this forum to discredit the reputation of the Group. Again the Vegas VIP Lounge would like to stress that the activities which took place were unlike anything it has experienced before, and therefore do not fall into conventional categories of “bonus abuse” or “fraud” or “scamming”.

Something is still not clear. If they were "scammers" as you put it, why did pay them, why did you not expose them and defend your position in public?

[wolfman]

The casino group however cannot release further details relating to this case due to its implications for its partners and for the wider security of the Casino Group.

You can tell us which terms and conditions they broke.

[vinylweatherman]

When a fire is out of control, Gasoline is NOT the best remedy!

"Unlike anything seen before" but neither "fraud, bonus abuse or scamming", I can't see anything wrong with that! As far as I was aware, playing without the use of these three sins was legitimate, saying otherwise simply implies that players are not allowed to win "too much".

As for the idea that releasing more detail will damage Vegas Partners, well, it's too late for that now!
Releasing more detail will only serve to sway opinion that perhaps these players WERE indeed scamming, but not in the traditional sense. With no detail, and no accusations of fraud, new players can have absolutely no idea as to whether what they are doing is "legitimate", or could lead to them being in a "heads we win, tails you lose" situation with their wagering. There are so many other MG casinos out there that ONLY discriminate against fraud, and scamming, and innocent players will know that so long as they are genuine they will not be inconvenienced too much.

Allowing players to lose unchecked, but blocking them only when they win is extremely dangerous for the likes of compulsive gamblers who may be relying on the win to dig themselves out of a hole. This will serve to ensure that such a compulsive will be unable to dig themselves out and will come to the attention of the wider community, with the experience of non-payment the one that the anti lobby will sieze upon with great enthusiasm, just look at the ease with which Frist did such damage by playing on fears rather than fact - most who voted "yes" in the senate had probably had NO actual experience of online gaming but relied on what they read and were told.

[soflat]

It's pretty interesting. Apparently they did nothing wrong, so the casino is reluctantly paying them. You don't see a casino group admit to fraudulently withholding funds very often. I mean it is not like the casino is claiming they made a mistake or the players broke a rule or anything, they are just saying that they are paying.

[vinylweatherman]

Originally Posted by soflat

It's pretty interesting. Apparently they did nothing wrong, so the casino is reluctantly paying them. You don't see a casino group admit to fraudulently withholding funds very often. I mean it is not like the casino is claiming they made a mistake or the players broke a rule or anything, they are just saying that they are paying.

You still haven't; they are paying (reluctantly), but in the same breath are maintaining that they were in the right to take the initial action they did - and still believe so (..and presumably do the same in a similar situation).

All this is making me more and more interested in exactly what these players are supposed to have done that was neither fraud, bonus abuse, nor scamming. More interestingly, one player claims they did not even use a bonus to start with, and that whatever gaming they did on the slots was with entirely their own funds put at the mercy of the random nature of the game. Whatever their strategy was, they beat Microgaming slots so damn bad they got their winnings confiscated and account locked! The only POSSIBLE explanation I can think of is an obscure bug in the basic slot game engines that this innovative group have discovered, and then circulated through some form of organised internet community. Certainly this could cause damage if detailed, but could also be considered fraud (depending on the exact nature of the bug). The only explanation that does not involve a software bug or exploit is some form of leverage on the bonus, usually seen with Blackjack or Roulette play prior to grinding out a WR on allowed games. This is so well known in our circles that saying so will do no damage. Darren (Palace Group), said as much in a thread in their own dispute, detailing exactly that the player had deposited 75 for 75 bonus, placed 1 bet of 100 followed by one of 50 on Video Poker as the first two bets of play - and this is what was considered by them as "undesirable play". This at least tells new players what they are not expected to do with their sign-up offers.