Mansion.com Keno Problems. Longish.

[mrrickyg]

I have a serious problem with Mansion casino. I, like many other sports gamblers, recently made a deposit to play their money-back $1100 football bet promotion. I have limited experience in online casinos as I mostly stick to Poker and occasionally sports, though I have at times played. When I made the deposit for that sportsbook, I noticed I also had a 100% match bonus that had wagering requirements. I decided to give their video keno a try to clear it, as keno cleared at 100% whereas other games like blackjack only counted as 10% of the rate (the bet had to be wagered 10 or 11 times I believe, but at blackjack it would have to be 100 times). I noticed they also had a couple of sidebets available in addition to the main bet. 20 numbers were drawn, you could bet on the sum of those numbers being odd or even and that paid 1.95 to 1. You could also bet on the numbers being in the Upper or Lower half and that also paid 1.95 to win. They appeared to be your run of the mill roulette type bets;basically even money shots at a little short odds. This was the case for the odd/even, but as it turns out "pushes" (10 upper half, 10 lower half) lose on the upper/lower sidebet. This however is NOT made clear at all. The difference between the bets is that one is around a 3% house edge, like the roulette type bet it appears to be, and the other is close to a 20% house edge! And not only do they make this unclear and hide it in there to take advantage of unsuspecting users who think they are essentially coinflipping (the bet should pay much higher than 1.95 for 1 unless they are REALLY trying to trick you), but on the results sheets they mark the loser as a winner!



Here are 3 sample screenshots from the game:



The first screenshot is one I took live when i first realized what was happening. Notice the results sheet on the lower right. A starred result indiciates a win, no star = no win. On lines 1 and 7 you can see that the P is marked a winner when it is paired with a winning E. I played for a long time under the assumption that the P was pushing and refunding money because of this (I lost hundreds or thousands, I'm not sure--my overall loss is around $5000 so far at this game). In fast mode it's virtually impossible to see in the winnings line that I wasn't getting paid enough dollars--I was losing a lot in the session but I thought it was because I was getting unlucky, not getting shorted on these apparent pushes over and over and over again. Also note, and this is key, that if the Lower/Upper is a clear loser, and the O/E is a clear winner, one is marked a star and the other is NOT marked in star showing 1 win and one loss. The push, which is a loss, is still marked as a win in order to deceive a naive player like myself






The second screenshot is from a hand history, not from a liveplay but it still shows in the same format. It is another example of a P marked a winner when paired with a winning E bet. Keep in mind when getting paid at 1.95 to, it is a losing proposition to win one and lose 1.




The third screenshot is an example of two losers; pushing the U/L and losing the O/E. They are both marked as a loss.



Now while I was playing before I lost tons and figured out way, it was all happening so fast I wasn't exactly sure what was going on. I was varying between high and low bets, betting as much as $400 per hand--Not just grinding out wagering requirements--I was actually doing serious gambling--And from those starred P's and unstarred P's I wasn't sure if it was breaking a tie with the O/E (i.e. the P was a win if the O/E bet won, but a loss if the O/E Bet lost) or if it was just starring referring to an overall result (i.e. a Push/Win being a win and Push/Loss being a loss)...but there is no reason to have expected those pushes were losing. It is against the spirt of the bet paying 1.95 for 1 for the Push to lose, it is against the spirit of calling it a push (a push means the bets are PUSHED back), if it's not a push it should be called a tie that loses. Because they elected to call it a push, I thought (naturally) that bets were getting pushed back.

I wrote an e-mail to support (they seem to be backed up I have not received a response yet) and spoke to chat. The customer service rep said this regarding my problem:

"
MANSION Paul N
Relating to your payout on the push we can confirm within the rules of Keno the rules clearly state that the push result is a house win. as these are the rules the casino can not award any money back as this is not an error or a software issue.
Please note that after further investigation our Casino department have found no errors within any of your games and all payouts have been made accordingly
MANSION Paul N
Relating to your payout on the push we can confirm within the rules of Keno the rules clearly state that the push result is a house win. as these are the rules the casino can not award any money back as this is not an error or a software issue.
Please note that after further investigation our Casino department have found no errors within any of your games and all payouts have been made accordingly"

To this I ask you to please review one of the screenshots. None of those buttons go to rules of the game. If you click on help, it brings up a help FAQ style for the whole casino; use the search function for keno and there are no keno rules. No other button to show the rules, all you have to work with is what I showed you. A bet that appears to be a normal 3% edge coin flip bet for the casino morphed into a very deceptive 20% house edge bet. Simply put, based on their interface the rules DO NOT clearly state that pushes lose. In fact, from the graphics as I showed above, it appears that pushes sometimes win and sometimes lose. And like I said, by definition a push "pushes your bet back", so if a "push" lost, it should be clearly marked as "pushes lose" otherwise it shouldn't be called a "push".

If this were a rogue or shady casino, I would not complain. If it was a smaller independant casino, I might not even complain. But Mansion is a large, well respected casino that Casinomeister accredits. This behavior should not be accepted by accredited, recommended casinos. All I'm asking for is for my pushed bets to be refunded as I never realized they weren't being refunded at the time they pushed. Asking for the old bets to be paid fairly as appeared I would still be at a 3% overall edge to house, it does not pose a past-posting problem for the casino to get those pushed bets refunded. It is something I'd have asked for even if I had somehow had a winning session at those odds.

I continued wagering during the weekend to show good faith. I played a lot of bets on their football exchange, and still couldn't get customer support to e-mail me back. I spoke again with Paul N tonight and the following is our conversation:

Welcome to Chat.Mansion.Com, MANSION Paul N will be right with you.
MANSION Paul N
RE in regards to service request #: 1-81263942
MANSION Paul N
hello
mrrickyg
hi , i was writing to see if i was going to hear back from the casino people ever about this, or if i should just go ahead and post on casinomeister?
MANSION Paul N
We are unable to view this SR at the moment (Our system is down)
mrrickyg
ok, should I email it again then right now?
mrrickyg
so i can get a prompt response?
MANSION Paul N
Our email system is slow at the moment. I would suggest Chat but maybe in a couple of hours
MANSION Paul N
Thank you for the chat
MANSION Paul N has ended the chat.
Welcome to Chat.Mansion.Com, MANSION Paul N will be right with you.
MANSION Paul N
RE in regards to service request #: 1-81263942
MANSION Paul N
hello
mrrickyg
hi , i was writing to see if i was going to hear back from the casino people ever about this, or if i should just go ahead and post on casinomeister?
MANSION Paul N
We are unable to view this SR at the moment (Our system is down)
mrrickyg
ok, should I email it again then right now?
mrrickyg
so i can get a prompt response?
MANSION Paul N
Our email system is slow at the moment. I would suggest Chat but maybe in a couple of hours
MANSION Paul N
Thank you for the chat
MANSION Paul N has ended the chat.



I still want to believe that it's just a bug in their keno, that it was supposed to push and it just wasn't and they are going to pay me; or that they realize the problem in their graphics showing wins and no clear rules being posted on the game and pay me. They would retain my business as I loved their site, other than their customer support speed at this point.


Thanks, Richard

[quber]

Hi mrrickyg,

if you could resize (or delete) that first big picture everything will then become readable.

as it is it can only be read by scrolling left and right on everyline.

cheers

[mrrickyg]

Originally Posted by quber

Hi mrrickyg,

if you could resize (or delete) that first big picture everything will then become readable.

as it is it can only be read by scrolling left and right on everyline.

cheers

Hi, OK ill do that. it is legible for me somehow, so I didn't notice.

[mrrickyg]

Originally Posted by quber

Hi mrrickyg,

if you could resize (or delete) that first big picture everything will then become readable.

as it is it can only be read by scrolling left and right on everyline.

cheers

ok is that better?

[soflat]

It took me less than 15 seconds to find the keno rules, which include the following about the sidebets:

Upper / Lower - You can bet on whether more balls will be drawn in the Lower (1-40) or Upper (41-80) half of the table. Choose which one you would like to bet on and use the 'Side Bet Multiplier' to decide on your stake.

If the numbers drawn in the lower and upper halves of the game are equal, the house wins.

Also, according to the rule, Push does not mean you get your bet back. The explanation for the Results Window says that U/L/P indicate the following:

Whether the end result was Upper, Lower or a Push (equal).

[mrrickyg]

Originally Posted by soflat

It took me less than 15 seconds to find the keno rules, which include the following about the sidebets:



Also, according to the rule, Push does not mean you get your bet back. The explanation for the Results Window says that U/L/P indicate the following:

I never argued that I wasn't retarded for not finding the rules; however I'm not hugely experienced with online casinos and wasn't able to find them quickly and easily from the Keno interface itself. My biggest concern was the graphics I posted, which the whole time were indicating a win. You are experienced and know where to look for rules; but try loading up keno game and finding the rules within 15 seconds from that table.

Even if you can, I still can't--this proves you are excellent at finding rules--many other players, including myself, would not be able to. This does not exonerate them from having graphics showing a win, when the rules indicate it is a loss. Note not just the appearance of a "P" which can be explained by your explantion, but the appearance of starred "P"s which indicate a win/push in combination with the Odd/Even bet. Once they call it a "Push" AND show starred/winning results AND pay it off at 1.95 to one right next to the Odd/Even bet it becomes clearly deceptive and rogueish behavior.
In any form of blackjack where pushes lose, it would be clearly marked on the table that pushes lose. If they are going to offer a virtually even money bet, in which a push is a very common result (around 1 in 6!), it should be clearly marked that a push is losing, and it should NOT be marked on the results that a push is winning. Remember its not just that they have P to begin with, it's that they ambiguously mark them as winners, so when I'm playing on fast mode and can't see the money results very easily on a per spin basis and am just looking at the overall results sheet, I had no reason to suspect I was losing. Without a RULES link available from the game itself, and with the game marking some as a winner and some as a loser, how was I supposed to know that it was a losing bet? Why should I expect, given that information, that it was losing when the bet paid basically even money? Hell even in a casino, I've never seen a dealer not tell a player to buy the 8 instead of putting his money on Big 8 in craps.

Again, as per my original post, this is behavior I'd expect out of a shady casino, and fully expect to be out my money. But given that this is mansion.com, a casinomeister accredited casino, I feel that I have a complaint.

[soflat]

Yes, they shouldn't mark the losing bets similarly to the winning bets. I don't think Mansion is rogue, it just has something that should be changed. How many rogue casinos pay out on over $5M in free bets in single week?

I don't understand how you could have lost $5000 and not noticed. Did you start with $5000 and your balance actually hit $141 at one point?

[mrrickyg]

Originally Posted by soflat

Yes, they shouldn't mark the losing bets similarly to the winning bets. I don't think Mansion is rogue, it just has something that should be changed. How many rogue casinos pay out on over $5M in free bets in single week?

I don't understand how you could have lost $5000 and not noticed. Did you start with $5000 and your balance actually hit $141 at one point?

I was playing 4 tables of poker at the same time, I noticed I was losing but at some points I was playing $400 per line so I wasn't really paying attention to WHY I was losing, I had assumed it was just variance. I started playing keno with $4800, cleared $1700 in bonuses and at one point was down to $140 (well actually, later $90!). The reason I can lose $5k without noticing is because I am used to it, it happens in poker all the time! I just didn't notice the reason I was losing was because my pushes weren't "pushing" they were losing, and that was because of a specific and horrendous flaw in their software.

I don't think they are rogue either, and in fact I thought it was just some sort of error until i read their keno rules. I still don't think they are majorly trying to cheat me, I just think their support is slow and incompetent at this point and that they don't understand the severity of the deception. I don't think they were purposefully trying to deceive me, and I'm rather shocked that when I presented them with "the evidence" there wasn't an apology and a return of funds. An accredited casino with good customer service would look at a screenshot that was showing me a winner, and return the pushed money when I give them that much action. However, I can't get through to anybody more than the guys working the webchat because they aren't returning my customer-service e-mails in a timely fashion.

[KravdraaYvoorg]

Can you still set the side bet multiplier to 100x? I just started the game and the multiplier won't go higher than 5x

Maybe Mansion realized that people would use these bets at max multiplier settings to clear the bonuses quicker?

[soflat]

Originally Posted by KravdraaYvoorg

Can you still set the side bet multiplier to 100x? I just started the game and the multiplier won't go higher than 5x

Maybe Mansion realized that people would use these bets at max multiplier settings to clear the bonuses quicker?

Yes, the strategy has been discussed at some poker forums.