Mansion.com Keno Problems. Longish.

[mrrickyg]

Originally Posted by happygobrokey

you're trying to clear a bonus profitably, but you're a gambler not a whore.

comparing a casino taking your losing bet to a girl getting raped is a poor analogy imo. the casino did not break any law or even their own rules by taking your losing bet. i like this analogy better: saying "but it showed a star so i thought i won" is like saying "but she didn't say no so i thought she consented".

if there were such thing as a total that was neither odd nor even (like i in mathematics, the imaginary square root of -1), that bet would lose if this total came up. you're betting "more in the upper" or "more in the lower" and if neither has more, both bets lose. it's like the 0 on roulette; red or black are even money bets but they are not 50/50 to win/lose.

the little graphic under the u/l bet shows clearly that there is a window in which neither bet would win. crummy that a star shows on the history board, but not reason enough to think you won those bets.

you keep saying you weren't experienced enough to find the rules for the game. you didn't think maybe it would be under "casino rules"? less than an inch away from "open new account"? on the site's main casino page, where you have to be to get into the game itself? is this the first online casino you've played? is this your first time on the internet?

do you also buy stocks and automobiles without checking them out first? it is not only whores who research their pursuits before investing. common sense would tell me and other rational people to know what we're getting into before risking a loss of money, be it a car that won't run, a stock whose company is going down the tubes, betting on a game of chance...

You are taught since the first grade that a starred result/star on on your paper/star on a sticker by your name is a positive result. Also, in every other (and far more common result) a star is a winner (or at least a paying result if not a winning result). For example, hit 0 numbers and there is no star. Hit 1 or more numbers/get a payout/get a star. My point has never been I couldn't have prevented this by being better about reading the rules; my objection is that this site is a Casinomeister accredited site, and it should not be if they have games like this.

How do you apologize for the fact that I have received zero responses from their customer support? Whether or not I deserve to get my money back, this casino does not currently deserve to be a Casinomeister accredited casino in any way, shape, or form. The NGC would 86 a game like this, Casinomeister should too.

To all your criticisms of whether I'd do research before I bought a car/stock etc: It's really none of your business. It's probably a pretty good idea to do thorough research, because then you avoid problems. But thankfully there are regulatory measures in place to protect stock buyers and automobile buyers from the most blatant of scams. Establishing a pattern of starred results being a paying result is exactly the type of "scam" that regulatory bodies would stop. And if not a regulatory body, then a watchdog group such as this one. As online gambling has no powerful regulatory body, the only recourse to deal with a casino that has done something shady and doesn't respond to e-mails is to take it to a board like this one. Major online casinos have an obligation to have fair and consistent games; starring negative results is at bet grossly inconsistent and I don't see how a site with such inconsistencies can be "accredited".

As it is Monday, and I have yet to receive the promised e-mail from them by Monday, I'm going to go ahead and post my updates. Notice that in the chat transcript the guy explicitly tells me it's a problem he can't handle, and I'll have to be e-mailed a response back.

Three updates:

1.) I spoked with customer support on the 15th, and they said they had originally tried to send an e-mail on the 11th. I had not received this e-mail. I had them resend it, and it still didn't show up in the spam folder or main inbox, so it's possible there was just some other technical problem preventing delivery. They sent to an alternate e-mail address, and it arrived just fine.

2.) The email said this:

The above screen shot shows the rules that Keno is operated under for MANSION.COM

All on-line companies run this game slightly different to each other but the overall aspects are the same.

The odd and even bet is very similar the red/black/odd/even/high/low on roulette. However, with Keno there is no zero to hold the house edge. Therefore, the outcome here is just the same as a flip of a coin. Only there is no outcome or probability for a tie (the coin landing on its edge for example)
We can safely conclude that the percentage for the outcome of odd or even is 50% for each outcome.

If a bet is placed on the upper-lower section there is a third outcome that we have to take in to consideration.

That outcome is that 10 numbers land in the lower section and 10 numbers land in the upper section.

In order for a house edge to be present, as you are aware all casino games operate with a know house edge and this is never hidden from any one, the house selects what payouts should be made for said bet.

The game Keno can not operate the same as roulette as the number Zero is not used. Therefore MANSION Keno has selected to claim all bets when the outcome of the upper and lower bet is equal. This is clearly stated on the rules of the game when in the “log in” screen.

After an investigation of your game play we can conclude that there are no errors on the program and all bets were paid out as they should have been.

Unfortunately we are unable to make a refund of any bets that were reported as pushes as the rules state that on the numbers being equally located in the upper and lower halves the house will win.

So their claim is that the bet would have zero house edge if I were to assume this. Obviously this is not the case as the bet only pays 1.95 for 1. When they refer to the "above screenshot" they are referring to a .jpg file of the rules of the game.

3.) I had a conversation with support after reading the e-mail above, and he said he would forward to the appropriate department and I should hear back from them the next day. I asked if I could just be called, and he cited some seemingly bad reasons (US Law) as to why he couldn't speak to me. They are the only people I've ever heard interpret it as being OK to accept wagers, but not accept customer service calls. I could understand accepting internet wagers, but not accepting telephone wagers, but to not accept customer service calls seems absurd. Anyways, two days have passed and I still haven't heard from them at either of my e-mail addresses.

Welcome to Chat.Mansion.Com, MANSION David will be right with you.
MANSION David
Hello mrrickyg
MANSION David
RE: Hi, I am having questions still about my keno results.
MANSION David
How may i help?
mrrickyg
Hi, I'm still upset that I haven't receieved an e-mail back in regards to playing Keno and having it show me that pushes were pushing (not losing) because they were starred as if a positive result.
mrrickyg
I sent screenshots of the results and what the screen showed me and noone ever replied
MANSION David
So you did not receive the email and attachment sent on the 11th sept?
mrrickyg
no, i did not
MANSION David
They were sent to your registered email address of xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
mrrickyg
the only mail i have received from mansion since the 11th was about qualifying for the BB Freeroll
mrrickyg
on thr 12th
MANSION David
i will resend the email now
mrrickyg
OK, I have been complaining that I did not receive a response in public forums, I will makes posts that say that you tried to send on the 11th but for some reason it techincally failed.
MANSION David
I have resent it now, you should receive it imminently
MANSION David
thank you
mrrickyg
ok thanks...i still havent received it
MANSION David
I sent it to xxxxxxxxx@aol.com
MANSION David
Could it be that your email address is classing the email as spam and blocking it?
mrrickyg
can you try xxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.com ?
mrrickyg
no i checked the spam folder too
MANSION David
Hmm,
MANSION David
i will try that now
MANSION David
It's on its way
mrrickyg
ok thanks
mrrickyg
ok i received it
mrrickyg
hi ok
mrrickyg
they say thius:
mrrickyg
"
The odd and even bet is very similar the red/black/odd/even/high/low on roulette. However, with Keno there is no zero to hold the house edge. Therefore, the outcome here is just the same as a flip of a coin. Only there is no outcome or probability for a tie (the coin landing on its edge for example)
We can safely conclude that the percentage for the outcome of odd or even is 50% for each outcome.

If a bet is placed on the upper-lower section there is a third outcome that we have to take in to consideration.

That outcome is that 10 numbers land in the lower section and 10 numbers land in the upper section.

In order for a house edge to be present, as you are aware all casino games operate with a know house edge and this is never hidden from any one, the house selects what payouts should be made for said bet."
mrrickyg
but that is untrue!
mrrickyg
the house edge exists from paying 1:95 for 1 instead of 2 for 1
mrrickyg
It also doesnt address my concern, which was the game was showing me winners by starring the result
mrrickyg
i understand that the rules are written one way, but the game was faulty in DISPLAYING the outcomes to me
mrrickyg
by starring the results, and that concern has not been addressed.
MANSION David
one moment please
mrrickyg
I am willing to shut up and stop posting on the forums and not mention this again in the forums if you just refund the money. I'd even settle for a large rollover on the refunded dollars in sportsbetting on the exchange/sportsbook as one of the reasons I want to get this settled is so I can get back to using your service--I really liked it!
mrrickyg
except for this!
mrrickyg
the sports exchange is awesome
MANSION David
Ok, i have spoken to our Casino Dept regarding this matter and your issue has now been escalated to our Casino Manager for his attention and you will be contacted by our Casino Manager on monday morning/afternoon regarding a resolution to this issue
MANSION David
I'm sorry i cannot resolve this matter for you now as i do not have the expertise however our casino manager has full authority to resolve your issue
mrrickyg
ok thank you, is there any way that he can call me?
MANSION David
If you give me your contact tel# he may be able to call depending on US laws pertaining to the placing of online bets, however he equally may not be able to speak to you as company policy may prohibit him due to current US laws on online gaming, if you give me your contact number i will pass it on and you will either receive a call or an email
MANSION David
I understand you are also on pacific standard time, i will make a note
mrrickyg
ok thank you very much.

[bossplayer]

Interesting to see if they will actually reply addressing your real concern here.

Boy, this sure must be taking quite a bit of time away from your recreational, non-bonus whoring time.

Just goes to show though, if you hop on a train at that bonus killing forum, without doing your own research and paying close attention, you run some additional risks.

[Macgyver]

Originally Posted by mrrickyg

mrrickyg
It also doesnt address my concern, which was the game was showing me winners by starring the result
mrrickyg
i understand that the rules are written one way, but the game was faulty in DISPLAYING the outcomes to me
mrrickyg
by starring the results, and that concern has not been addressed.
MANSION David
one moment please
mrrickyg
I am willing to shut up and stop posting on the forums and not mention this again in the forums if you just refund the money. I'd even settle for a large rollover on the refunded dollars in sportsbetting on the exchange/sportsbook as one of the reasons I want to get this settled is so I can get back to using your service--I really liked it!
mrrickyg
except for this!
mrrickyg
the sports exchange is awesome

I'm sorry, but this reeks of blackmail.

I understand that you feel cheated and believe that you deserve your money back, but making statements that you'll "shut up and stop posting on the forums" if you do get it back only undermines your case.

Forums, especially this one, aren't a club or blunt instrument to be beat against a casino's metaphorical head to get what you want.

[mrrickyg]

Originally Posted by bossplayer

Interesting to see if they will actually reply addressing your real concern here.

Boy, this sure must be taking quite a bit of time away from your recreational, non-bonus whoring time.

Just goes to show though, if you hop on a train at that bonus killing forum, without doing your own research and paying close attention, you run some additional risks.

This I agree with wholeheartedly.

And on the eyes rolling, really I'm not a bonus whore. I read 2+2 for the poker content (search the Internet Bonuses forum, you won't find any participation by me other than a question on how to clear my Mansion bonus, go figure). I play poker, and bet football like many other poker players. I loaded my account with $3500 for their bonuses/free steeler bet, and they probably would have gotten it all from me on football anyways. It just makes me madder than heck that they got it like this. :-(

[mrrickyg]

Originally Posted by Macgyver

I'm sorry, but this reeks of blackmail.

I understand that you feel cheated and believe that you deserve your money back, but making statements that you'll "shut up and stop posting on the forums" if you do get it back only undermines your case.

Forums, especially this one, aren't a club or blunt instrument to be beat against a casino's metaphorical head to get what you want.

Wasn't intending to blackmail; I could have worded it better. Was more showing I was serious about finding a resolution to a problem and making them aware of the fact that I was using a forum and making noise. I don't know the best way to go about solving problems with casinos, but what I really wanted was e-mail dialogue with them. I didn't want to involve the boards in the first place, but as I've said time and time again, I'VE NEVER SPOKEN BY PHONE OR E-MAIL WITH ANYONE WITH THE POWER TO DO ANYTHING. Only chats with live tech agents who refer me to the casino manager, who never responds.


But I apologize if it came off as blackmail. I intended it more as a plea for settlement (i.e. settle with me, I'll say issue resolved, and it will quietly go away). I only said that a week after I took this to the boards as a plea for settlement; not as a threat. And only after never receiving any sort of e-mail response. If I had any feelings of maliciousness when I said that, I obviously would not have posted it for everyone to see. I really like mansion, I think they have a good product. But I feel they dropped the ball here, and I was trying to get their attention to show it to them.

[henryVIII]

mrrickyg
I am willing to shut up and stop posting on the forums and not mention this again in the forums if you just refund the money. I'd even settle for a large rollover on the refunded dollars in sportsbetting on the exchange/sportsbook as one of the reasons I want to get this settled is so I can get back to using your service--I really liked it!
mrrickyg
except for this!
mrrickyg
the sports exchange is awesome


I appreciate your comments above, but of course it is blackmail.

Also, you are telling us that they should definately be discredited to prevent people playing there and then you are telling them that you want to get back to using their service as you "really liked it".

Given this, you can probably understand peoples scepticism when you also say that you :
- did not notice their rules (even though keno rules can vary greatly)
- did not notice (over $000s of bets) that pushes werent wins
- did not notice that you balance was dropping drastically differently to what you assumed it should be
- but did notice that the "P" was starred and so based your whole play on $000s of bets based on this one facet.

And you are incredulous that they dont refund you $000s.

To the point you demand they are blacklisted.

Well, unless they pay up and then you'll be back for more !!

Mansion are solid ... a bit crazy sometimes ... but I thought their response was perhaps one of the most honest you will ever see from a casino (talking about needing a clear house edge, etc) compared to the usual crap casinos spout.

Personally, I dont think you have much of a case for a refund for $000s based on what ive read here.

But thats just my opinion.

[mrrickyg]

Originally Posted by henryVIII

mrrickyg
I am willing to shut up and stop posting on the forums and not mention this again in the forums if you just refund the money. I'd even settle for a large rollover on the refunded dollars in sportsbetting on the exchange/sportsbook as one of the reasons I want to get this settled is so I can get back to using your service--I really liked it!
mrrickyg
except for this!
mrrickyg
the sports exchange is awesome


I appreciate your comments above, but of course it is blackmail.

Also, you are telling us that they should definately be discredited to prevent people playing there and then you are telling them that you want to get back to using their service as you "really liked it".

Given this, you can probably understand peoples scepticism when you also say that you :
- did not notice their rules (even though keno rules can vary greatly)
- did not notice (over $000s of bets) that pushes werent wins
- did not notice that you balance was dropping drastically differently to what you assumed it should be
- but did notice that the "P" was starred and so based your whole play on $000s of bets based on this one facet.

And you are incredulous that they dont refund you $000s.

To the point you demand they are blacklisted.

Well, unless they pay up and then you'll be back for more !!

Mansion are solid ... a bit crazy sometimes ... but I thought their response was perhaps one of the most honest you will ever see from a casino (talking about needing a clear house edge, etc) compared to the usual crap casinos spout.

Personally, I dont think you have much of a case for a refund for $000s based on what ive read here.

But thats just my opinion.

I am an unsatisfied customer with a reasonably valid complaint (some people think I'm stupid/others think Mansion is in the wrong). I was merely pointing out the obvious; if they satisfied my complaint I would stop complaining to the forums. I agree, it might have been worded blackmailish but there is a big difference between blackmail and negotiation. Try to remember I am at wits end at not being able to talk to anybody with power from them, and I was trying to illicit a response. I could have worded it slightly better, something along the lines of "Please keep in mind this is being discussed in forums, and it would look really good if you guys took care of some loyal customers, which would be the case if you, say, offered us a refund of our pushed bets with some sort of sports rollover requirement." Unfortunately, I didn't have the luxury of editing in a chat (I might have noticed in an e-mail;but those go unreturned).

I think something important to remember here is that I'm not the only one. There are several others that this happened to as well. We were all irresponsible, but at the point they had this problem with MANY customers, some of the blame must be placed on them and not spread out only among the customers who had that misunderstanding.

I know I lost thousands. I know I should have noticed earlier. I didn't. And Mansion created a game where it was easy enough not to notice that I wasn't the only one with that problem. Offering bets that appear to be even money propositions, but in reality have -20% edges is inexcusable in it's own right. Having grossly ambiguous graphics in combination with that; and not resolving a customer's issue with that certainly might be within their legal right, but it should not be condoned/accredited by this site.

I never demanded they be rogued; I commented that their behavior was rogueish in the beginning and I later commented that unreturned customer e-mails seemed like a rogueable offense in its own right. Demanding that a site that is accredited by Casinomeister return e-mails and offer fair, non misleading games is not too much to ask.

[aka23]

Originally Posted by mrrickyg

but in reality have -20% edges is inexcusable in it's own right

The typical house edge in B&M keno (number picks) is more than 20%.

[happygobrokey]

picture this. you're playing blackjack. you stand on 17. dealer draws to 21. message comes up (in whatever size/font you want to imagine) "YOU WIN!!" would you berate the casino because you thought you won and they took your losing bet anyway?

from your recent posts (excluding the threat to them to pay up or face public outcry), you admit now that the push outcomes were losers and it's your own fault for having chosen to play the game without knowing how to play.

then you say, "well it's the principle really. many other players are in my situation as well. such a casino should not be accredited." so if they get blacklisted, will you shut up? if they fix the software, will you shut up? i doubt either of these would satisfy you, despite it being about "principle". what if they pay only you, will you continue to stick up for the "others in your situation" and boycott/defame/harass them until everyone gets compensated?

did you lose everything you deposited there? if not, have you played/bet there since realizing you did lose legitimately? their "sports exchange is awesome"! a little good cop bad cop eh? "pay me and i'll stop slandering you via the internet, so that i can come back to your site which i love!"

if i were mansion, i would email you saying that "although you did lose those bets, the software did in fact display an ambiguous graphic. we are pleased to inform you this ambiguity has been rectified and the software now displays "tough luck jackass" in flashing yellow and green letters whenever an upper/lower push results. in addition, we are pleased to offer you a $10 bonus which will be credited to your account after wagering one thousand times the bonus amount on the upper/lower side bet of our upgraded keno game. we appreciate you bringing this to our attention and are glad to extend you good luck wishes at our games. regards! -mansion mgmt"

just because they give out free bets here and there doesn't mean you can cry and get a refund when you lose fair and square.

on that note, were you able to place the steelers bet properly? i know you had to scroll down a bit to read the t&c and maybe you couldn't find it and mistakenly bet on the exchange instead of the book??

EDIT: one more thing, i'll wager mansion had ~2 regular keno players prior to the whoring loophole, neither of whom would be betting 100x multiplier on the side bet (if they bet it at all), and both of whom would have the sense to read the rules. it is well within reason to think that the software showing stars on a loss had gone completely unnoticed before all the whores jumped on board. has it been fixed yet? if so why are you still talking? but we'll never know since no one plays mansion keno with only a 5x multiplier and no bonus to clear!

[mrrickyg]

Originally Posted by happygobrokey

picture this. you're playing blackjack. you stand on 17. dealer draws to 21. message comes up (in whatever size/font you want to imagine) "YOU WIN!!" would you berate the casino because you thought you won and they took your losing bet anyway?

from your recent posts (excluding the threat to them to pay up or face public outcry), you admit now that the push outcomes were losers and it's your own fault for having chosen to play the game without knowing how to play.

then you say, "well it's the principle really. many other players are in my situation as well. such a casino should not be accredited." so if they get blacklisted, will you shut up? if they fix the software, will you shut up? i doubt either of these would satisfy you, despite it being about "principle". what if they pay only you, will you continue to stick up for the "others in your situation" and boycott/defame/harass them until everyone gets compensated?

did you lose everything you deposited there? if not, have you played/bet there since realizing you did lose legitimately? their "sports exchange is awesome"! a little good cop bad cop eh? "pay me and i'll stop slandering you via the internet, so that i can come back to your site which i love!"

if i were mansion, i would email you saying that "although you did lose those bets, the software did in fact display an ambiguous graphic. we are pleased to inform you this ambiguity has been rectified and the software now displays "tough luck jackass" in flashing yellow and green letters whenever an upper/lower push results. in addition, we are pleased to offer you a $10 bonus which will be credited to your account after wagering one thousand times the bonus amount on the upper/lower side bet of our upgraded keno game. we appreciate you bringing this to our attention and are glad to extend you good luck wishes at our games. regards! -mansion mgmt"

just because they give out free bets here and there doesn't mean you can cry and get a refund when you lose fair and square.

on that note, were you able to place the steelers bet properly? i know you had to scroll down a bit to read the t&c and maybe you couldn't find it and mistakenly bet on the exchange instead of the book??

EDIT: one more thing, i'll wager mansion had ~2 regular keno players prior to the whoring loophole, neither of whom would be betting 100x multiplier on the side bet (if they bet it at all), and both of whom would have the sense to read the rules. it is well within reason to think that the software showing stars on a loss had gone completely unnoticed before all the whores jumped on board. has it been fixed yet? if so why are you still talking? but we'll never know since no one plays mansion keno with only a 5x multiplier and no bonus to clear!

Everything youve said Ive answered at some point or another; save the accusation of slander. For starters, this is a written forum so it would be libel, not slander. For it to be libel, my statements would have to be untrue. I take offense to being accused of dealing slander.

Blackjack being broken and saying a winner when dealer has 21 and you have 17 is clearly a broken game. The house would of course lose everything, and I wouldnt hold that against them. However, in this situation pushes pushing and not losing is a completely natural looking outcome. A better comparison would be playing blackjack game where pushes lose and it isnt clearly marked.

Why all the hostility for playing a game because they offered a bonus? Of course thats why I played...I dont gamble online on anything other than Poker or Sports ever (both of which I do frequently), and they left thousands of dollars of bonuses in my account to get me to play their other games while I was at it. Why the hostility towards me for playing Keno to clear those bonuses? Isnt that the whole point of the bonus? To get me to try their other stuff? Id have been happy clearing the bonus just betting sports, but they didnt offer that. I could have cleared it through poker, but instead I chose to gamble at $400 per hand on a $4800 bankroll and give them a chance to win it, not just clear the bonus. Why do I have to deal with all this hostility generated by the players taking the safe $10 per hand route?