NE hacked, CON won�t repay me although they got my money($4700)

**chris_d** · 16th June 2006, 11:21 AM

Hello, I�m new here at Casinomeister but has been recommended to post this here by a friend, he also said that you who are Casinomeister might even be able to help me. If so I would be very thankful, i am trying everything. I am not a high stake gambler and this money I worked hard for at the poker tables and I am the least to say, very sad about this whole situation. But i leave it at that, i dont want this to be a cry letter trying you all to feel sry for me.

What has happened is that someone hacked into my Neteller account (Neteller has confirmed that fraud has taken place and Casino on net=CON does not dispute this). The hacker opened an account in my name, my address, phone number etc he had from NE. He managed to do this although i already had an account at CON. At the casino they told me that there was no breach in the security but I think that it was a big breach. This is what CON says about multiple accounts:

�At all times, you may only have one account, for which you will register using your own, correct name. You may not access the Software or use the Service by means of another person's account. Should you attempt to open more than one account, under your own name or under any other name, or should you attempt to use the Service by means of any other person's account we will be entitled to immediately close all your accounts and bar you from future use of the Service."

He made two deposits into CON for a total sum of $4700. At first he tried to withdraw my money but after being denied(i assume) he decided to gamble it away. CON means since he lost the money in their casino there is nothing they can do.

This is their "decision":
"The funds where deposited played and lost in the same day
As such, no funds have been cashed out. All where lost on the tables.
As my colleagues have previously informed you. Unfortunately, Kristian
we cannot accept responsibility. I respectfully advise that you contact
Neteller directly or alternatively contact your local Law enforcement
agency to resolve this matter.

Thank you for your time and I sincerely apologise for any inconvenience
this may have caused you.

Kind regards,
John.D
Operation Department
Cassava (Gibraltar) Ltd.
operations@cassava.net"

From my point of view i dont really see what different it makes if the person lost my money gambling in their casino or tried to withdraw(his account has been locked/closed btw) and the money would still be in "his" account. Either way the casino got my money.

I am very surprised by CON:s position here. The big winner is obviously CON themselves, i dont think for one second if the person actually would have won money they let me withdraw the deposits and winnings to my account. They dont deny they have gotten my money from a person who comitted fraud but they seem to be happy taken it anyway. They are a big casino and wouldnt lose a dime on paying me back, isnt there one ounc of ethic in the casino business?

Sidenote: The hacker also made a deposit of 1700 into another Casino/Pokerroom but there it seems like they will pay me back. He lost the money in the casino there too, and they are also a much smaller casino/pokerroom than CON. I will update on how this goes hopefully tomorow cuase I will talk to the manager then.

/Chris

**vinylweatherman** · 16th June 2006, 12:00 PM

It depends on which party was negligent in the matter, Neteller, the casino, or both.

You are on good legal grounds, as this is NOT a gambling debt, but a crime. If the money exists, and can be recovered, they are legally bound to return. In law, stolen items belong to the original owner, even if the current owner obtained them in good faith. This often happens with cars. A car can be seized if it was stolen, even if the current owner bought it in good faith from a dealer.
The casino currently "owns" the money, as it was stolen, the casino should pay it back to Neteller to the amount of the original fraudulent transaction. Any winnings would be void of course, as this was not a valid transaction.

You are better off contacting Neteller, but also the regulators of Neteller. This will depend on where you are resident. Currently, Neteller itself is based in the IOM, so would be regulated there overall. For UK residents, Neteller UK is also regulated by the UK FSA. It is worth informing them even if you cannot claim, as the fact that this fraud type is even possible is a serious matter and needs to be looked at. You will need to provide proof from Neteller about the admission that they have identified fraud, the word of a player on it's own will not be enough as there will be the concern that the complaint itself is just an attempt at getting money out of a casino.

If you are to post any E-mails to back up your story, remember to remove any personal information from it and just leave the general text.

You can also try the "Pitch a Bitch" service here with regard to the stance taken by the casino, which incidentally has been "Rogued" here for an unrelated matter to do with "site scraping" and issues of copyright infringement.

**Mousey** · 16th June 2006, 01:01 PM

How many people is it, so far, that I have seen posting about ID theft, theft from NETeller and then the stolen money deposited to poker rooms?

How is this happening? Key loggers? Where? When? Who? This is really creeping me out.

**Slotster!** · 16th June 2006, 01:45 PM

Good point Mousey!

Chris - sorry to hear about this! Have you got any ideas as to how this might've happened? Was it malicious software or something else?

It would be useful as Mousey says if we could be doing something to stop it happening! Thanks in advance!

**silcnlayc** · 16th June 2006, 05:12 PM

It is a very scary thing to happen especially when it is through a poker site (Paradise Poker was where I got caught with a keylogger) and Neteller which is a very tightly held site where this is where my funds were trying to be with drawn also.

I was one of the lucky ones I guess for I was notified when I tried to make a deposit that I was DECLINED which raised a red flag and I went to check my account and sure nough...large sums were being requested from my account but they didn't get a dime out of my Neteller for it was declined due to a note posted in my account saying anything over a certain amount, do not honor. I made sure that it was posted even BIGGER on my account after this fiasco.

I took the advice of this forum,thank you guys! and wiped my hardrive clean and I haven't had another problem since. I do not go to ANY poker site now at all for this is where I think and almost know 99.9% that it originated from.

**chris_d** · 16th June 2006, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by Slotster!

Chris - sorry to hear about this! Have you got any ideas as to how this might've happened? Was it malicious software or something else?

I have no idea how this happend. And I only have the password in my head, not even wrote it down at home. I got a 2month new computer, new antivirus and a firewall as well... I don�t really know who to blame here but one thing thats sure is that my money is missing, theres been a crime and I know for sure that the money is in the casinos.

**Linus** · 16th June 2006, 11:39 PM

Mousey - There have been A LOT of cases of internet fraud lately. I've closed my Firepay account and withdrew most of the funds I had had in Neteller. I asked them to disable their "Instant Deposit" feature - which debits your checking account, whether you have funds in it or not - and I keep the checking acct that's linked to Neteller zeroed out. That's all I really know to do. It's inconvenient, but better than having money stolen.

Chris - If Casino On Net knows your money was stolen, but plans to keep it anyway, that's completely unjustifiable. Doesn't mean they won't do it anyway.

**Scooter7** · 17th June 2006, 04:21 AM

Originally Posted by vinylweatherman

It depends on which party was negligent in the matter, Neteller, the casino, or both.

You are on good legal grounds, as this is NOT a gambling debt, but a crime. If the money exists, and can be recovered, they are legally bound to return. In law, stolen items belong to the original owner, even if the current owner obtained them in good faith.

(other excellent points snipped for brevity)

You would be 100% correct about having good legal grounds, but which ground would you recommend taking legal action on?

This highlights a difficult aspect of the regulatory game that will eventually need to be sorted out. There is nowhere to take legal action against anyone. The casino's comments about talking to law enforcement are laughable since the casino knows damn well that there isn't a cop or a court in the world that they have to listen to.

They don't care about everyone's concerns over site scraping, why should they have to care about one player who has no legal leverage against them?

Question...If you couldn't get arrested no matter what you did....what would you do???

Some casinos make up a new answer for that question every day

**vinylweatherman** · 17th June 2006, 02:33 PM

This case is a little better though.

Neteller are regulated in the Isle of Man AND in the UK by the FSA. If Neteller refuses to pursue this matter, complaints and action can be taken in these places. Neteller really should be the first port of call, and should refer this to their security department, and you should zero the account (if not already done) in case further attempts are made.

If CON are at fault through allowing unauthorised access to your account, then action would be taken in Gibraltar against Cassava, who are regulated by the Gibraltean gaming authorities to run their TWO casinos. Casino-on-net and Reef Club.

The account transaction history will show the deposits being made, however, the casino will probably have been logging IP addresses, and this could show that the fraudulent transactions have a distinct internet footprint from the genuine ones.

Formal letters of complaint to Cassava and Neteller is the first step, possibly through a solicitor as they will likely know you are deadly serious about this. This can be followed by a formal complaint to the Gibraltean and Manx authorities who regulate these businesses.

It is unlikely that either will allow the dispute to linger to the next step, which could be humiliation in the courts at what is a very sensitive time for the industry. Indeed, with sufficient evidence that the casino is aware of the money having been stolen, they could find themselves on the receiving end of a police raid to recover the stolen funds and documentary evidence. This would come out of the blue for them, and they will have no time to cover their a***s!

**jetset** · 17th June 2006, 05:30 PM

Chris, I would suggest your first step is to submit a PAB (Pitch a Bitch) here.

The Casinomeister is back from leave next week and he has excellent contacts with Neteller and CON which will enable him to confirm the facts, find out how this took place and seek a fair conclusion.

If the 'Meister has no success, then consider the Gibraltar jurisdictional authorities and a formal claim against Neteller.