Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating

[Vesuvio]

Originally Posted by Casinomeister

This has been the problem from the git-go on this one. The flaw was discovered, and this thread began to go to hell in a hand basket.

Well, but this has been another problem from the git-go. You use the word "flaw", which is assuming what this whole thread has been trying to discover (the presence or lack of intent).

Despite what some seem to think the vast majority of people who have been disputing the interpretations made in favour of the casino are doing exactly what Spearmaster is trying to do - get at the truth. We've also devoted a lot of time to considering the information available and it's extremely insulting for you or others to suggest that we're not willing to give the casino a chance.

I'm not going to rehearse all the arguments again, but the story we're being asked to believe here is verging on the incredible - and still hasn't been convincingly justified. An objective assessment at the moment at the very least has to cast suspicion on the casino's actions. You've talked to them in person which is all well and good (though surely they should be responding publicly), but bear in mind that apart from some psychologists and specially trained professionals people are notoriously bad at spotting lies.

[spearmaster]

Originally Posted by Vesuvio

bear in mind that apart from some psychologists and specially trained professionals people are notoriously bad at spotting lies.

I resemble that remark. Thank you for judging me on this single issue instead of everything I've done over the past six years. That was about as low an insult as you could have possibly thrown at me.

[Casinomeister]

Originally Posted by Vesuvio

We've also devoted a lot of time to considering the information available and it's extremely insulting for you or others to suggest that we're not willing to give the casino a chance..

Then why has Spear said the hell with this? I don't think I have been insulting in the least bit. Only a few of us stand aside from our online personas and go public with our names, and meet with casino operators at our own expense. We sacrifice our time away from home, away from our families, so we can provide information for you to deal with. The only people I may have insulted are those who question the motives and lash out at people like me, Ted Loh, B. Cullingworth, Shackleford, etc., and don't have the guts to speak to us face-to-face. That's the sorry lot I'm referring to. I thought that this was perfectly clear.

Originally Posted by Vesuvio

...You've talked to them in person which is all well and good (though surely they should be responding publicly), but bear in mind that apart from some psychologists and specially trained professionals people are notoriously bad at spotting lies.

True, and my point was that the only way to bring this together is to take into account everything you know about the group. They didn't just jump off of some boat from China (no offense to the Chinese); the operators have been around for a number of years and are personally well-known in the industry. To purposely try and cheat players would not logically fall into play in this situation - that's all I'm trying to get across. I'm speaking from 8 years experience in the business. If you don't want to consider my honest opinions, that's your prerogative. It doesn't make any difference to me.

[Vesuvio]

Originally Posted by spearmaster

I resemble that remark. Thank you for judging me on this single issue instead of everything I've done over the past six years. That was about as low an insult as you could have possibly thrown at me.

Spear, I don't think you got my meaning. I'm lumping you with 99.9% of humanity, so it's not an insult. I'm also not saying EH are necessarily lying, just that you can't judge that on the basis of face-to-face to contact.

[Vesuvio]

Originally Posted by Casinomeister

To purposely try and cheat players would not logically fall into play in this situation - that's all I'm trying to get across. I'm speaking from 8 years experience in the business. If you don't want to consider my honest opinions, that's your prerogative. It doesn't make any difference to me.

Of course I'll consider your opinion, but there's also the question of the facts of the case. It might not be logical to cheat, but it's also not logical for the programmers to have done what they claim. It's a matter of weighing up the evidence rather than simply trusting the opinion of authority figures, however respected. I wish you and Spearmaster would stop taking this personally and accept that there is room for discussion.

[soflat]

CM, you believe that the error was caused by an accident, right? (they accidentally loaded the wrong module or whatever)

For me, the problem is not the accident, but that they did not have the necessary controls to prevent it.

If they didn't have the proper procedures in place April - May 2006, then they didn't have them in place in 2005, 2004, 2003, etc.

They need to check that the problem (lack of controls) did not jeopardize game fairness during the entire time that the problem existed.

But they only checked 2 months of data. Spearmaster absolutely said they should not go back further in the data, and that is my only criticism.

They need to address the problem over the entire time it existed.

Next, they need to fix the problem. Paying players during April-May and uploading new code did not fix the problem. They have to have some controls in place to protect the players in the future.

[jetset]

I think a read over some of the unnecessarily unkind comments directed at Spearmaster in this thread may explain why he was entitled to take this personally, but I hope he will persevere in his assessment despite that.

Some of the reactions and comments made in this thread and others elsewhere imo do little to encourage specialists to come forward and try to assist in the future and that helps nobody in my view.

Certainly the manner in which EH has remained aloof whilst Ted took flak that was not deserved is a real shocker and does them little credit in my personal opinion.

However, it's done and we need to focus on the rights and wrongs of the incident itself. I'm hoping that Ted and others involved in the investigation will as soon as possible issue a joint communique independent entirely of EH, furnishing them with a copy at the same time as it is posted here.

That will give members the background and expert views they may (or may not) feel they need in drawing their own and final conclusions on this, and the report will become a matter of future record in this thread.

What English Harbour management do once the report is made public will clearly have a major influence on how they are seen going forward...and that will have an impact on their business.

What I hope NOT to see are further attempts to discredit or insult those who have been good enough to devote their time and skills to helping us understand what happened here.

[kengam]

This is a sensitive issue for everyone. No one wants to be cheated and no one wants to be called a cheater. Spearmaster got his feelings hurt. IMO he took on a much bigger responsibility than he could handle. There are some of us who disagree with him and some who don't. He should have known this would happen. It is par for the course.

The reality is we should be directing accusations at English Harbour. They have failed to give a legitimate reason how this erroneous code got into their main game server. They have failed to give data from earlier periods concerning the double up game. They have failed to give us a reason to trust them. We do not need testimony from Spearmaster or anyone else to determine for ourselves whether or not to trust English Harbour.

I am disappointed that Casinomeister isn't willing to rougue this outfit simply based on the failure of English Harbor to keep this from happening. This is his site and he can rogue who he wants. He has rogued other outfits for what I would consider less severe acts. Do I personally give a hoot who he rogues and who he doesn't? No I don't. I know who cheats. I have been doing this for a long time and have a good bit of data collected by myself and by hundreds of other players. I do feel for genuine newbie players who have no idea. All I can say to those people is there are plenty of places to play that have not been proven to have cheated in the past. Go play there. DO NOT PLAY AT ENGLISH HARBOUR OR ANY ODDS ON AFFILIATE.

[spearmaster]

Originally Posted by Vesuvio

Spear, I don't think you got my meaning. I'm lumping you with 99.9% of humanity, so it's not an insult. I'm also not saying EH are necessarily lying, just that you can't judge that on the basis of face-to-face to contact.

Lumping me with the lot wasn't exactly a compliment now, was it? Just which way did you expect me to take that?

#1. I have the benefit of face-to-face contact - none of you do, and I do not think you are in any position whatsoever to judge whether or not they were bullshitting me.

#2. I know a bullshitter when I see one. I can spot slime a mile away (Meister and Jetset will testify to that when I pointed out Slots Alley last year)

#3. I have the benefit of code in front of me - none of you do, and I do not think you are in any position whatsoever to judge whether or not this code is bogus.

#4. I have been programming for 30 years in various programming languages and I know when something is amiss.

#5. I have been around here actively posting for six years - you OUGHT to be able to judge from this period whether or not I am a bullshitter or whether or not I am the type to call a spade a spade.

As far as I am concerned - I am the one who deserves all the flak, and I will take all that flak, even IF I have been telling the truth and offering an honest opinion the whole time. But I will not take low blows sitting down.

EH is not responding here because they believe my independent analysis will be better than them coming in here to point out what I am trying to point out when all of you will simply not believe them any more than you are believing me at present. Frankly, I don't blame them - you've got the knives out and are ready to carve the turkey even though it's not Thanksgiving or Christmas.

You will not give them a fair trial, since you are not giving me a fair trial - so what the hell did you guys expect in the first place?

Originally Posted by Vesuvio

I wish you and Spearmaster would stop taking this personally and accept that there is room for discussion.

You call this a discussion? You call this not personal?

Get real. I'm ducking and diving trying to avoid friendly fire from all corners. Sounds a lot more like "Shoot first, ask questions later" - hardly what I would call a discussion.

Originally Posted by Kengam

Spearmaster got his feelings hurt. IMO he took on a much bigger responsibility than he could handle. There are some of us who disagree with him and some who don't. He should have known this would happen. It is par for the course.

What a load of SHIT. My feelings aren't hurt - you don't think I've developed a Teflon coating by now? I'm just tired of listening to a bunch of bullshit - no sense talking to the wall here, is there?

Responsibility - you're entitled to your opinion. Personally, I disagree.

Should have known? Of course I knew - and you think I'm stupid to carry on? I'm not stupid - I'm tired. And I WILL finish this when I am good and ready - in the meantime keep your condescending remarks to yourself.

[soflat]

Spearmaster, Do you think EH's problem was that a) they loaded some bad code one day, or b) that they didn't have anything to prevent that from happening for so many years (and still don't)?

If the real problem is the latter, then there may be many more instances, and the problem is not really fixed now by just giving refunds and apologizing.