Resolved Palace Group Rules Shenanigans

[spearmaster]

For the record, I have already made my position clear to CM and to eCOGRA.

[gingeanth89]

To be clear - I bet 10% of my original balance on that last hand but 100% of the remaining balance. Here are copies of their emails..

First the congratulations email.

from Spin Palace Support <support@spinpalacecasino.com>
to Anthony <XXXX>
date Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 1:30 PM
subject Your Withdrawal [XXXX]

Hi Anthony,

Account - XXXX

Congratulations on your recent withdrawal!!!

As an online casino, we are extremely proud to have been honoured with eCOGRA's 'Player's Seal of Approval Award' and fully intend to retain this accolade. eCOGRA's Players Seal of Approval is awarded to those casinos which have achieved compliance with eCOGRA's high standards and demonstrated that:

- Games are fair
- The casino operates honestly and behaves responsibly (!!!!)
- Monetary deposits are safe and winning bets are paid in a timely manner. (!!!!!!)

As such, and to abide with eCOGRA's rules, we kindly ask that you submit copies of the following identification documents:

So I think at this point that everything is good and I will be paid.

Then their special offer email.

Starred from Spin Palace Support <support@spinpalacecasino.com>
to Anthony <XXXX>
date Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 2:39 PM
subject Congrats on your winnings! Want more money? [XXXX]

Hi Anthony,

Account number: XXXX

This is a quick email regarding a special offer I would like to make to you.

Firstly congratulations on your win at the casino of £2413!

We would like to offer a bonus of 20% on whatever you decide to reverse on your withdrawal, it is up to you on how much of the withdrawal you do but it means you can have up to £482.60 of free money!

Also with this bonus you will be able to withdraw at anytime, you just lose whatever bonus balance you have remaining so there is no lock-in.

In order to claim your bonus that I offered to you contact our support team http://www.spinpalacecasino.com/contactus.asp or from the banking section of the Spin Palace Online Casino software, via live chat!

Now at this point as far as I am concerned, they have accepted my win and Ill be paid.

But no. Thats when i got the email (from my first post) saying they are invoking their special rule to deny cashouts.

To make matters worse, when I took my complaint to eCogra their rep got back to me pretty much immediately saying that my case was lost. Spin Palace had told eCogra that I had bet my entire balance on each of four hands of 3CP (a lie) and then played slot machines at £1.60 a spin to clear the wagering requirement. It said nothing about how I won at 3CP being the rule breaker, only how I had played the bonus out, on the slot machines. The reason given for me not being paid? Betting on slot machines is hedge betting.

I emailed eCogra again and explained that playing slot machines is about as far from hedge betting as it is possible to get. They said they would "re-investigate". In my opinion, the case wasnt even investigated in the first place. I complained to eCogra, Spin Palace lied, eCogra accepted what the casino said and ruled accordingly.

Anyway..After the eCogra rep got back to me a second time as you know they said this time that I had broken the rule by betting my whole balance on the 3rd and 4th hands of 3CP. Lets be clear, on the 4th hand I bet £30 just 10% of my original balance.

Shout it from the treetops folks, if you play Palace Group casinos and accept a bonus as it stands YOU CAN NOT WIN.

Or am I wrong?

Anthony.

[deltoid]

Pure bonus abuse. By the CASINO.

So let's say you're playing $5 video poker and you lose everything, down to your last $5. Well, guess what, you win a royal flush on your last bet! OHHH too bad, you were betting more than 50% or more of your balance for the last two bets, we get to keep your money! haha!

Unbelievable, completely scum behavior. I don't care if it's in their terms and conditions, they could write you must be wearing a blue hat in order to be eligible to win, it's a complete rip off and this is theft, out right. JUST IMAGINE if this guy had lost everything on his last bet, which was more than likely. Would the casino have refunded his $150??? NO. It's win-win-win for the casino.

[deucebag]

This is rogue behavior IMO. If the player lost, they would not have refunded him.

Granted the terms say you can't bet the majority of your balance, but that is a term that is impossible to adhere to if you go on a losing streak. It is a trap. It is a predatory term. Sooner or later you will have to bet your whole balance, and the casino is free to confiscate your winnings.

Bonus terms and conditions have to be clear and fair, and this one is neither.

The fact that eCogra put their seal on casinos with such terms makes it very clear what a joke they are.

[lauram]

The bonus you took was this a opening account bonus or one you applied for?

[lots0]

Bryan your asking a lot when you don't want people to bring up ecogra in this matter.

They are a big part of this...

I understand your position and your decision in regards to the PAB that was filed here at CM.
The casino was following it's published T&C's and the player should have understood the T&C's before depositing. I think this is understood by most and not liked by just about everyone, however rules are rules.

But... trying to tell folks that they should not discuss ecogra, a big part of the situation is not... logical.

This is not the first time we have heard players state basically the same things... the appearance of a predetermined outcome in player disputes and questionable actions like offering a "20% bonus on reversed withdrawal"... Not even questioned.

[deltoid]

Originally Posted by lots0

Bryan your asking a lot when you don't want people The casino was following it's published T&C's and the player should have understood the T&C's before depositing. I think this is understood by most and not liked by just about everyone, however rules are rules.

In my opinion, the player FOLLOWED the rules. They weren't betting more than 50% of their original sum. To extend that to the BALANCE is entirely unreasonable as is almost always the case the player must bet their entire balance!! Reading it any other way leads to the casino ALWAYS having the option of voiding the players win!!

[Casinomeister]

Originally Posted by lots0

Bryan your asking a lot when you don't want people to bring up ecogra in this matter.

They are a big part of this...

I understand your position and your decision in regards to the PAB that was filed here at CM.
The casino was following it's published T&C's and the player should have understood the T&C's before depositing. I think this is understood by most and not liked by just about everyone, however rules are rules.

But... trying to tell folks that they should not discuss ecogra, a big part of the situation is not... logical.

This is not the first time we have heard players state basically the same things... the appearance of a predetermined outcome in player disputes and questionable actions like offering a "20% bonus on reversed withdrawal"... Not even questioned.

The point is that I'm fed up with threads being hijacked, that's all. This thread is about this player's issue, and the issue with these terms and conditions. If it turns into yet another eCOGRA bash then this thread has no relevency to the casinos that publish this term.

As an administrator, I am asking merely to remain focused that's all.

This is an old term by the way, it's been there for some time and as far as I know, this is the first time this has been a problem.

In fact, we asked Fortune Lounge to look at this term some time ago:

http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...ggestions.html

sdaddy came up with an excellent solution:

Originally Posted by sdaddy

In place of this problematic "irregular play" clause, Fortune Lounge has to figure out all the types of activity that exploit its bonuses and come up specific with specific, workable rules against them. I gather FL's biggest problem is with players who make large initial bets and then "grind out" the remaining WR on small, low-risk bets. As a good example of how to prevent this, I'll quote the well-written term that Galaxiworld.com has used for years for its bonuses (http://www.galaxiworld.com/lobby/bonus.html):

Players cannot bet more than 25% of their original purchase at any given time. For example, if you deposit $500 then the maximum single bet while having the bonus would be $125. Failure to adhere to this rule will cause your cashout to be disallowed.

The key in how the above rule is written is that it specifies what is the maximum of the player's original balance that can be wagered. This will avoid the problems that can arise by specifying the maximum bet of the player's current balance, as FL's term is now constructed.

This was over a year ago, and only now people are complaining about it?

[hakapuku]

Ouh my God! This is absolute nonsense from the casino and ecogra. The reason why the casinos try to limit a bet size when awarding the bonus can be understood somehow. But how can you explain the fact that they accept 120 pounds bet as valid but confiscate the money because of the 4 times smaller bet of 30 pounds??? It makes no any sense at all! No need to say that this is one more (and new) dirty trick of internet casino industry against the gamblers' community.

[deltoid]

The fact that Galaxiworld has that term, which is quite clear and FAIR, leaves no excuse for Spin Palace. That means that there is only one reason for this term - that they LIKE to have this term just the way it is worded, so that they can void as MANY wins as possible. That we are just hearing about it affecting players doesn't mean much - the fact is, most players online don't read, let alone write, in any forums. (This explains the continued existence of scum like Virtual Group)

Casinos put a lot of thought into their terms and conditions (generally speaking). Do you think they didn't recognize what this term, as it is worded, meant? Do you think that they didn't weigh the alternatives (such as the wording from Galaxiworld?) You bet that they did, and they determined that this term, as worded, would give them maximum leeway in voiding wins!

This is theft, bonus abuse, and out right fraud on the casino's part.