Palace Group Rules Shenanigans

[Jufo]

Hey, Palace Group

For the last five reload bonuses I have lost my deposit placing large bets on Craps. So why haven't you put those funds back on my Moneybookers account?

[cmich77]

To the casino rep. What is your definition of the term "spirt of play"???
I would also like the definition of a small bet please, if you could give the exact numbers for what is a "small" and "large" bet that would be great! Thanks

[chuchu59]

To the casino rep. What is your definition of the term "spirt of play"???
I would also like the definition of a small bet please, if you could give the exact numbers for what is a "small" and "large" bet that would be great! Thanks

"Spirit of play" means playing at the following slots:

1/ Johnny Spectre
2/ Halloweenies
3/ Skullduggery

It's getting late so I will leave it to you guys to think of more.

[sjn]

It seems obvious from the OP's wagering that the goal was purely to exploit the bonus on offer in the hope of hitting a big win as he then grinding through the attached WR.

The palace group are one of the better casino groups and I never worry about getting paid when i make a cash out. The purpose of a sign up bonus is surely so new players can try the casino out, to try a variety of games, and so make your money last twice as long.

It is only because of sign up bonus abuse that the terms and conditions are getting more and more complicated in an effort to combat this. I remember back in the old days the rules would be wager 3 x deposit and bonus, no roulette or craps. How times have changed.

[spearmaster]

It seems obvious from the OP's wagering that the goal was purely to exploit the bonus on offer in the hope of hitting a big win as he then grinding through the attached WR.

The palace group are one of the better casino groups and I never worry about getting paid when i make a cash out. The purpose of a sign up bonus is surely so new players can try the casino out, to try a variety of games, and so make your money last twice as long.

It is only because of sign up bonus abuse that the terms and conditions are getting more and more complicated in an effort to combat this. I remember back in the old days the rules would be wager 3 x deposit and bonus, no roulette or craps. How times have changed.

Do keep in mind that the only term that the OP "broke" was a term which was mathematically impossible to avoid breaking - and that all people who lost their entire bankroll also "broke" this term.

This is *NOT* bonus abuse. Bonus abuse takes one of three forms:

1. Multiple accounts and/or false identification
2. Playing prohibited games
3. Not meeting wagering requirements

A fourth term *could* be size of bet - but this must be denominated by a specific bet size, or a percentage of a FIXED number (such as deposit + bonus).

Balance + bonus is NEVER fixed. Thus the term as written is invalid as it applies to all players who lose their bankroll, or someone who bets at least half of their remaining balance - even if that balance is 2 cents.

An invalid condition is unenforceable in a court of law - and there is no reason why it should be otherwise permitted online.

[cmich77]

It is fair eneugh that a casino offering a bonus has restrictions on the betting about with that bonus money. The problem is there is no definition of what ia "small" bet is or a "large" bet. The "Spirit of play" seems to be interpreted by whoever is on duty that day.

[gingeanth89]

In response to the original post.

The problems come in when we look at trends and play and see definite signs that someone is betting a certain way after receiving bonus money which is not in the spirit of fair play and not the reason we give offers and bonuses to our players.

I played allowed games, under the betting cap you have imposed through the software and made sufficient wagers to clear your requirements. How can you even begin to suggest that I did not play fairly? When I gamble at a casino, I'm trying to win the casino's money, the casino is trying to win my money. That's how it is. I can't beleive that a big grown up casino is whinging that it's "not fair" that a player won from them. Where was your spirit of fair play when you decided to invoke this impossible to adhere to rule to deny my winnings?

Lets get this straight. You don't give bonuses to new players out of the kindness of your hearts. The ten pages of rules regarding bonuses (which are fatally flawed), game restrictions and bet capping make this perfectly clear. You give the bonuses to attract players so you can make money off them. Nearly all lose is my guess given the heavy restrictions. If I had lost you'd have made money off me. If you are a fair casino, you would apply this rule in the same way for everyone who plays at your casino. That means you should either pay me or you should be sending everyone who ever played with a bonus and lost their deposits back as we speak. Are you on that yet? No? I think I could rest my case right here but I'll carry on.

Our terms do state what we do not allow and if players would like to clarify what they may or may not do prior to claiming and betting they are welcome to contact us.

Oh really? Are you suggesting that if I got in touch before playing I could have had this conversation:

Player: "Hey! If I deposit £10 do I get a £10 bonus from you?"
Support: "Yes sir"
Player: "Can I play slot machines with the money?"
Support: "Yes sir"
Player: "I can play slot machines at £1 a go? The whole £20? Without penalty?"
Support: "Apart from the last £1 sir, if you play it you will be breaking our rule which clearly(!) states that you cannot bet the majority of your balance. if you play with the last -=*magical*=- £1 we'd have to return your deposit."
Player: "So. If I lose the first 19 spins and then deliberately bet the last £1, I will be breaking your rules and you would return my deposit?"
Support: "Yes sir"
Player: "I think I just worked out how to play at your casino with absolutely no risk whatsoever! Please give me the bonus"

The 20% bonus offer on the reversal was an error and should not have been sent out. This does not detract that once the withdrawal was submitted and analysed the player did in fact break terms which they agreed to when registering with us.

That offer wasn't sent in error was it? It was a last ditch attempt at getting me to not withdraw by ofering me a bonus incentive. When that didn't work you invoked the impossible to abide by rule. I agreed to the spirit of the rules not the twisted version that you applied when you decided to deny me my winnings.

Players who play with us know we are a reputable group who does not need to revert to any underhand tactics. We do however strongly believe that a business needs to protect itself.

Sure a business needs to protect itself, that's why you have a wagering requirement and disallow most of your games while a bonus is in play oh, and you limit the maximum a player can bet too. I think it's fairly clear from this thread and your wishy washy reply that the Palace group are not acting reputably and have in fact resorted to very underhand tactics indeed to deny my payout.

You can still turn this around Palace Group. Admit you made a mistake, change the rule so it is absolutely clear and fair! and pay me.

[gingeanth89]

It seems obvious from the OP's wagering that the goal was purely to exploit the bonus on offer in the hope of hitting a big win as he then grinding through the attached WR.

Are you telling me that you go to casinos and play games purely for the fun of it, avoiding big wins if possible? If that's the case, please come to my home casino where we offer a large variety of games with lots of flashing lights. The only downside is - you never win.

My goal was to gamble pure and simple. My definition of gambling includes a chance that I will win and a chance that I will lose. The odds at any casino are stacked against me, this is mathematical fact, even more so with all the restrictions the casino put in place. I won, you should be happy for me.

[KasinoKing]

It seems obvious from the OP's wagering that the goal was purely to exploit the bonus on offer in the hope of hitting a big win as he then grinding through the attached WR.

The palace group are one of the better casino groups and I never worry about getting paid when i make a cash out. The purpose of a sign up bonus is surely so new players can try the casino out, to try a variety of games, and so make your money last twice as long.

You know, about 3 or 4 years ago I used to think exactly the same as you.
But I listened to the arguments of other forum members and came to realise that I was wrong.

Why do people gamble? Because they want to win.
What will they do to win? Anything which is permitted in the rules.
And that's what this player did.

He deposited £150 of his own money and placed 4 very large bets.
If he hadn't been very lucky, he could have lost his fourth bet & bust out.
£150 in just 4 hands - if that's not gambling I don't know what is!

Everyone here (except the casino) agree - if you don't want players to place big single bets - tell them!!!
This can either be as a monetary figure (e.g. £20) or as a percentage of the bonus received (e.g. 10%).

This Spin Palace rule is totally ludicrous, as many others have said, and I am VERY disappointed in the actions of what were one of my favorite groups.

[spiderlegz]

Firstly to address a few additional points raised in this thread:
30. Spin Palace Casino reserves the right to pay all Progressive Jackpot winnings in US dollars. The amount to be paid, will be determined by the US Dollar Progressive Jackpot amount on the Progressive Game played, at the time the jackpot was won.
We pay progressives in the currency the player played in. The term does need updating and will be done so accordingly.

The Finnish site will be updated to have the same terms as the rest of our the casino sites. Thank you for pointing these out.

In response to the original post.

We have been targeted and abused by a number of players using certain betting patterns (which for obvious reasons I cannot divulge). We do not take the bets at face value but delve into the actual game play to determine whether someone has transgressed the terms and conditions or not.
The problems come in when we look at trends and play and see definite signs that someone is betting a certain way after receiving bonus money which is not in the spirit of fair play and not the reason we give offers and bonuses to our players.
Our terms do state what we do not allow and if players would like to clarify what they may or may not do prior to claiming and betting they are welcome to contact us.
The 20% bonus offer on the reversal was an error and should not have been sent out. This does not detract that once the withdrawal was submitted and analysed the player did in fact break terms which they agreed to when registering with us.
Players who play with us know we are a reputable group who does not need to revert to any underhand tactics. We do however strongly believe that a business needs to protect itself.

Regards,

The Palace Group

Fact is that you have that term (still not removed) and those T&Cs were last updated 19/03/2009. You werent obviously aware of it until now

And about the Finnish T&Cs (BTW we have two official languages), how would you have treated me if I had played the same way as the OP?

The rest of your post has already been addressed by Spearmaster and others so nothing to add there. Only that you actually have bet restrictions "built" in the software as many have pointed out, shouldnt that take "care" of these situations?

And remembered that I still had an Mummys Gold account open. I of course emailed support to have it closed.