Winnings Denied By Top Casino. Unfair?

[bwin]

Hi,

I have to say that I am a bit surprised about your posting here GGray, because the last message I sent you was on April 3 and I never received a reply - but now I have to see your thread here - started about 2 weeks later and bringing the topic to the public.

I am more than happy to share details about this case with the casinomeister reps and I am certain they will acknowledge that bwin treated you in a more than fair way and was actually quite generous. The fact that you violated the terms and conditions of the Download Casino Welcome Bonus without knowing is no excuse, but we only took away the illegitimately gained bonus winnings from the Download Casino and refunded you your deposits and the winnings from the Instant Play Casino, reopened your account and asked if this is a satisfactory solution for you. The feedback I get now, 2 weeks later, is this thread

regards,

Ben

[vinylweatherman]

Hi,

I have to say that I am a bit surprised about your posting here GGray, because the last message I sent you was on April 3 and I never received a reply - but now I have to see your thread here - started about 2 weeks later and bringing the topic to the public.

I am more than happy to share details about this case with the casinomeister reps and I am certain they will acknowledge that bwin treated you in a more than fair way and was actually quite generous. The fact that you violated the terms and conditions of the Download Casino Welcome Bonus without knowing is no excuse, but we only took away the illegitimately gained bonus winnings from the Download Casino and refunded you your deposits and the winnings from the Instant Play Casino, reopened your account and asked if this is a satisfactory solution for you. The feedback I get now, 2 weeks later, is this thread

regards,

Ben

GGray seems to be alleging it was your CS giving the wrong advice that caused the problem. Players should be able to rely on what CS tell them - this is the mark of a good casino. We do, however, only have a detailed account from one side in this, and in order for you as the rep to give your balancing view you would need the permission of GGray to share details of what actually happened, and in what order.

How exactly did a bonus managed to get credited in the download casino with no matching deposit? This looks like some kind of technical error, yet GGray alleges CS said to "start with the wagering of the bonus" rather than hold off.
Earlier, GGray says support mentioned there was also a download bonus. If GGray was no eligible for this, having played the instant one, why would CS be mentioning this at all, as surely there would be the danger the player would take this as an invitation.

If there are records kept of these calls, they should throw light on what was said, and when.

Whilst Bwin do not allow the taking of both the instant and download bonuses, this is by no means standard, and each casino has different rules, and it is the responsibility of CS to answer questions correctly, and if they do not know, say so. Given the nature of what lead up to this, the software crashes and vanishing of the deposit, this looks like a situation of CS not knowing the answer, but trying to bluff their way through rather than refer the matter to tech support.

The Bwin solution may well be more than fair when it comes to dealing with the wrongful use of the download bonus after already playing the instant one, it was Bwin CS that mentioned the download casino as having the bonus, and then adding it to the account. This was compounded by what seems to be the way CS handled an unusual technical problem that lead not only to the bonus being credited, but the deposit being removed from being at risk and CS saying it was OK to play "risk free" with the bonus.

Misunderstandings like this can be the downfall of any business, and angry customers who feel wronged, and cannot seem to make progress through normal channels will often resort to going public. There is the risk now that a few other agrieved players will jump in with their own simmering issues, spurred by one player having set the ball rolling.

There is a tendency for businesses who treat customers badly to suddenly "see the light" once an issue goes public, and this behaviour, repeated over the years, has taught consumers that often the best path to redress IS to go public with an issue, be that to a Television consumer program, or one of the bigger internet meeting places for like minded consumers of the product. Consumer empowerment has, in some cases, reached the stage where the tables have been turned, and consumers can blackmail or "screw over" businessess. Consumers and providers in businessess that have no real regulation for the most part are particularly vulnerable to rogue behaviour on each side of the relationship.

[bwin]

Hi,

Just for clarification: we do allow to get both, the Instant Play AND the Download Casino bonus, but to release each of them you have to wager real money and meet 2 different wagering requirements - like clearly stated in the terms and conditions of these two bonuses. So the advice regarding the Download Casino Bonus was correct, but the customer should be self responsible enough to also check the terms of conditions of that second bonus as well before he starts using it. I think there is no point in reading the terms and conditions of a bonus to customers over the phone.


So GGray did obviously not read/understand the Download Casino welcome bonus terms and conditions, because if she did, there would never have been a "problem".

And the fact that she went public with this does not change anything in our position and casinomeister reps can access my PMs whenever they want to follow the conversation I had with GGray and verify that bwin was very cooperative in sorting this out. But instead of getting back to my last PM (were it looked that we sorted it out and she was quite happy with the way we handled it), GGray decided to get public in the forum - 2 weeks later.

I will not publish any more details about this incident here - but I am more than happy to share all the information I have with a casinomeister rep and let them decide wheter bwin did something wrong or not.

Regards,

Ben

[vinylweatherman]

Hi,

Just for clarification: we do allow to get both, the Instant Play AND the Download Casino bonus, but to release each of them you have to wager real money and meet 2 different wagering requirements - like clearly stated in the terms and conditions of these two bonuses. So the advice regarding the Download Casino Bonus was correct, but the customer should be self responsible enough to also check the terms of conditions of that second bonus as well before he starts using it. I think there is no point in reading the terms and conditions of a bonus to customers over the phone.


So GGray did obviously not read/understand the Download Casino welcome bonus terms and conditions, because if she did, there would never have been a "problem".

And the fact that she went public with this does not change anything in our position and casinomeister reps can access my PMs whenever they want to follow the conversation I had with GGray and verify that bwin was very cooperative in sorting this out. But instead of getting back to my last PM (were it looked that we sorted it out and she was quite happy with the way we handled it), GGray decided to get public in the forum - 2 weeks later.

I will not publish any more details about this incident here - but I am more than happy to share all the information I have with a casinomeister rep and let them decide whether bwin did something wrong or not.
Regards,

Ben

GGray - to pursue this, you can go through the PAB (Pitch a Bitch) process, which is effectively what Bwin are suggesting.

One thing that I am not entirely happy with based on what has been made public is the fact that Bwin APPEAR to be making it the customer's responsibility to understand what their CS do not when it comes to terms and conditions. I disagree, the customer should READ them, but where clarification is needed, or problems encountered where the software does NOT follow what the T & C say it should, then it is the responsibilty of CS to CLEARLY advise the player as to how to proceed. NO casino whose CS cannot correctly understand the rules cannot expect the player to be able to.

If I contact CS at a casino on a matter, I EXPECT to be given the correct advice, and if CS screw up by giving INcorrect advise, I expect the CASINO to take the hit, not me. For this reason, GGray should PAB so that a full investigation can take place, and Max can see the WHOLE issue as it unfolded, not just the selected, and potentially biased, highlights presented here by GGray.

Bwin must also take a look at the technical issues experienced by GGray, so that if other players experience them, correct and helpful advice can be given. Ordinary players often do not have the expertise to correct these issues, and Microsoft simply will NOT assist, all they will do is blame the software vendor, and leave it up to them. Microsoft are often wrong though, and in many cases it is a bug in Windows, but it can be a devil of a job tracking it down, as only a small number of specific configurations may be affected, and it may also be down to software conflicts.

It once took me MONTHS to figure out a bug with Microgaming software, but I got there BEFORE Microgaming did I don't put much energy into Playtech bugs though, because it seems 99% of them "hate" British players, so I don't play any Playtech casinos at present.

[ggray89]

And the fact that she went public with this does not change anything in our position and casinomeister reps can access my PMs whenever they want to follow the conversation I had with GGray and verify that bwin was very cooperative in sorting this out.

I'm not denying that, thanks for your help, I just didn't agree with your outcome, hence my pm's to you saying I should at least be given another chance to do your rollover, with my winnings so far.

But instead of getting back to my last PM (were it looked that we sorted it out and she was quite happy with the way we handled it)

The PM conversation had finished, I had stated my position clearly - That I felt I had been treated unfairly - and your last message to me was "This is the absolute maximum I can do for you and actually it is already more than we normally do." It was quite clear we had disagreed on the outcome and there was nothing more to add as far as I was concerned, as your position was quite clear

GGray decided to get public in the forum - 2 weeks later.

Again, there was nothing more to add, therefore I'm not sure what your problem is with me posting my experiences in the forum. Isn't that what the forum is for? For people to decide for themselves? I'm not sure why you have a problem with this anyway if you feel you have acted fairly.
Also, I didn't mention your casinos name until I had got some feedback from other forum members regarding my issue, as I was unsure whether my obvious biased was effecting my judgement. All I can say is though, is that I have posted all the facts exactly how it happened.

It looks like other forum members agree I have been treated unfairly.

The feedback I get now, 2 weeks later, is this thread

Sorry, do you not like open discussions about your casinos practices? Looks like you get a lot of publicity through this site, what's wrong with members having all the information regarding how you operate? It may help some people to not make the same 'mistake' I made too, so I don't see what the problem is..

The fact that you violated the terms and conditions of the Download Casino Welcome Bonus without knowing is no excuse

So if you sneaked in a term saying "Players now have to jump through 5 hoops before being paid out" Do you think this would be enforceable? Common sense prevails over terms and conditions. Bank penalty charges are in the banks terms and conditions, but thousands of people are claiming them back as they are unlawful/unfair.

As I stated before, I may have breached your terms in the strictest sense, but...
1. I never withdrew any money from your download casino, it was automatically done when it crashed - Please check your records.
2. I was told to play on by your customer service - Please check your records
3. It has been proven there was no advantage from me playing with your bonus, as I had to complete your rollover anyway.

[bwin]

Hi,

I have no problems with an open discussion, but I don't want to share all details about your gaming behavior with the public, which should also be in your interest - and this is also not how complaints/PIB here normally works.

As a final sign of good will I credited you your intial welcome bonus of 200 euro again. which must be wagered 40 times (normally it is 20 times deposit+bonus) which is lower than the normal wagering requirements.

I hope that closes this case. The reason why I am doing this, is that I can not tell wheter our customer support gave you a misleading information or not.

Kr,

Benjamin

[ggray89]

Hi,

I have no problems with an open discussion, but I don't want to share all details about your gaming behavior with the public, which should also be in your interest - and this is also not how complaints/PIB here normally works.

As a final sign of good will I credited you your intial welcome bonus of 200 euro again. which must be wagered 40 times (normally it is 20 times deposit+bonus) which is lower than the normal wagering requirements.

I hope that closes this case. The reason why I am doing this, is that I can not tell wheter our customer support gave you a misleading information or not.

Kr,

Benjamin

Ok thanks.
I don't mind people knowing about my gaming behaviour. If this thread highlights what can go wrong at casinos to just one person and prevents them from making a mistake, then it will be worth it.

It's not exactly what I feel I was entitled to, as I would have won that money even without the bonus, I was several hundred € up, bonus or no bonus.

Nethertheless, thanks for your help, I am prepared to draw a line under it now and I will continue to use your casino.

Thanks

[jerrylee]

Hi,

I have no problems with an open discussion, but I don't want to share all details about your gaming behavior with the public, which should also be in your interest - and this is also not how complaints/PIB here normally works.

As a final sign of good will I credited you your intial welcome bonus of 200 euro again. which must be wagered 40 times (normally it is 20 times deposit+bonus) which is lower than the normal wagering requirements.

I hope that closes this case. The reason why I am doing this, is that I can not tell wheter our customer support gave you a misleading information or not.

Kr,

Benjamin

bwin, when you slammed ggray89 earlier I gave a thanks because I was thinking, finally a casino rep who tells it like it is and calls out a potential fraudster (bonus abuser I bet). I'm kind of disappointed you went soft on the player under public pressure
Oh well...

[Pinababy69]

bwin, when you slammed ggray89 earlier I gave a thanks because I was thinking, finally a casino rep who tells it like it is and calls out a potential fraudster (bonus abuser I bet). I'm kind of disappointed you went soft on the player under public pressure
Oh well...

Potential fraudster/bonus abuser? Fraudulent players and advantage players are two entirely different things, if that's what you're referring to when you use the term bonus abuser. I seriously doubt that if the OP were a fraudulent player, Bwin would have credited the 200 for him to have another go at clearing the bonus. To imply that the Ggray is a fraudulent player is way over the top. You continually make generalized posts that defend casinos and slam players....which casino exactly do you work for? You've hinted before that you are employed "within the industry"...if you are a casino rep, why aren't you listed as such here on the forum?

Perhaps Ggray is an advantage player, but bottom line (if his facts are true), he was told by CS to play on......and being an advantage player does NOT make him guilty of fraud. Come on..get real.

[RobWin]

bwin, when you slammed ggray89 earlier I gave a thanks because I was thinking, finally a casino rep who tells it like it is and calls out a potential fraudster (bonus abuser I bet). I'm kind of disappointed you went soft on the player under public pressure
Oh well...

Potential fraudster/bonus abuser? Fraudulent players and advantage players are two entirely different things, if that's what you're referring to when you use the term bonus abuser. I seriously doubt that if the OP were a fraudulent player, Bwin would have credited the 200 for him to have another go at clearing the bonus. To imply that the Ggray is a fraudulent player is way over the top. You continually make generalized posts that defend casinos and slam players....which casino exactly do you work for? You've hinted before that you are employed "within the industry"...if you are a casino rep, why aren't you listed as such here on the forum?

Perhaps Ggray is an advantage player, but bottom line (if his facts are true), he was told by CS to play on......and being an advantage player does NOT make him guilty of fraud. Come on..get real.

I totally agree Pina, jerrylee has a history here of these types of posts and I myself have also questioned his motives about such before, only to have him disappear for another month or so with never bothering to answer. Also jerrylee your comment regarding "ggray89" being a "potential fraudster" was totally uncalled for here especially after you had obviously read the Bwin Reps response and I believe you owe her an apology!

Also jerrylee, I believe that your comment, "potential fraudster" regarding ggray89 could also be considered as flaming toward the OP. I also do not believe that the Bwin Rep "slammed" the OP as you state either. No professional Casino Rep would want to be viewed in that regard on a public forum as popular as Casinomeister, as to publicly "slamming" their own players.