Betfair Casino bonus problem - bogus PAB - bot use

[Yblomm53]

Here's the story:

On April 23rd I registered at Betfair Casino with a coupon code which entitled me to a 250GBP deposit bonus. I made a deposit of 246 and received a 246 GBP bonus. After clearing the wagering requirement I received a email from betfair support that I had 'abused' the promotion and the bonus had been taken away from my account. Since I have been playing with a lot of big bets (1 bet of 492, 1 bet of 984, and a lot of bets varying from 3 (the majority) till 100) I think it's ridiculous I am being treated here as a 'bonus abuser'.

I contacted Casinomeister and Betfair representative RedArmy some weeks ago, even though he was helpful I still did not get a satisfying response from Betfair, they gave a bland statement saying I abused their bonus and that I wont get it back.. Betfair Casino sent me this e-mail about this decision:

"Dear Yvonne,

Please be advised that following an investigation into your activity in the Betfair Casino, we have concluded that your bets were carried out with the express purpose of abusing the bonus offered.
This is in accordance to the bonus terms and conditions which stats that "Betfair also reserves the right not to pay any bonus to customers that it suspects to be abusing this promotion."
Please be advised that you balance reflects your activity regarding your deposits and game play, minus the bonus amount.
Kind Regards
Games Verification Team"

I was quite surprised and disappointed to find out that Betfair had taken away the bonus amount (246GBP) from my balance. Moreover I am quite offended that I was being accused of abusing this bonus. I have risked all my funds twice with 2 big bets and kept on playing with bets of 3, which is also quite risky when you have to play 7500 in total. At the end I kind of lost my patience as it was quite time consuming and ended with bets ranging between 20 and 100. I think therefore that the accusation is ridiculous and totally unfair.

After talking to 'RedArmy' (from Betfair Marketing I believe) I decided to 'Pitch a Bitch' with maxd; after 2 weeks Betfair gave another statement, this time saying I used a 'bot' to clear my wagering .

I guess they think that when you deposit money it is not allowed to place bets of 3 pounds (which is the equivalent of 5 euros, which is the usual amount I bet here when I go to the casino) and if you do they tell you you use a 'bot'?! Rather ridiculous.

Until this will be resolved properly I reccommend noone to register at Betfair Casino, they will treat you as they please and make up invalid arguments for taking away your bonus if you win anything

 

[The Dude]

...
Until this will be resolved properly I reccommend noone to register at Betfair Casino, they will treat you as they please and make up invalid arguments for taking away your bonus if you win anything

Eh? Resolved properly - okay.

Betfair has pretty much a stellar reputation. I'd be suprised if they did not do their due diligence when investigating your case. They claim you used a bot for seven hours. Bot play is pretty easy to detect. I don't believe they are treating you "as they please". They are treating you like a player who deliberately broke their terms and conditions.

 

[The Dude]

If you believe you are 100% in the right - you didn't use a bot - I would suggest contacting the Malta authorities here:
Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

They are a little slow, but I'm sure they will look into this.

And when they resolve this, please come back and tell us what the results were.

Maltese based products - The Lotteries and Gaming Authority:

Alternatively, if you have made a complaint to Betfair in relation to one of our Maltese licensed products (for example, Poker, Casino, Games, or Multiples betting) and you feel that Betfair's final decision about your dispute was not dealt with satisfactorily, you can raise any unresolved dispute with the Maltese Lotteries and Gaming Authority by emailing: [email protected].

 

[chuchu59]

Here's the story:

On April 23rd I registered at Betfair Casino with a coupon code which entitled me to a 250GBP deposit bonus. I made a deposit of 246 and received a 246 GBP bonus. After clearing the wagering requirement I received a email from betfair support that I had 'abused' the promotion and the bonus had been taken away from my account. Since I have been playing with a lot of big bets (1 bet of 492, 1 bet of 984, and a lot of bets varying from 3 (the majority) till 100) I think it's ridiculous I am being treated here as a 'bonus abuser'.

I contacted Casinomeister and Betfair representative RedArmy some weeks ago, even though he was helpful I still did not get a satisfying response from Betfair, they gave a bland statement saying I abused their bonus and that I wont get it back.. Betfair Casino sent me this e-mail about this decision:

"Dear Yvonne,

Please be advised that following an investigation into your activity in the Betfair Casino, we have concluded that your bets were carried out with the express purpose of abusing the bonus offered.
This is in accordance to the bonus terms and conditions which stats that "Betfair also reserves the right not to pay any bonus to customers that it suspects to be abusing this promotion."
Please be advised that you balance reflects your activity regarding your deposits and game play, minus the bonus amount.
Kind Regards
Games Verification Team"

I was quite surprised and disappointed to find out that Betfair had taken away the bonus amount (246GBP) from my balance. Moreover I am quite offended that I was being accused of abusing this bonus. I have risked all my funds twice with 2 big bets and kept on playing with bets of 3, which is also quite risky when you have to play 7500 in total. At the end I kind of lost my patience as it was quite time consuming and ended with bets ranging between 20 and 100. I think therefore that the accusation is ridiculous and totally unfair.

After talking to 'RedArmy' (from Betfair Marketing I believe) I decided to 'Pitch a Bitch' with maxd; after 2 weeks Betfair gave another statement, this time saying I used a 'bot' to clear my wagering .

I guess they think that when you deposit money it is not allowed to place bets of 3 pounds (which is the equivalent of 5 euros, which is the usual amount I bet here when I go to the casino) and if you do they tell you you use a 'bot'?! Rather ridiculous.

Until this will be resolved properly I reccommend noone to register at Betfair Casino, they will treat you as they please and make up invalid arguments for taking away your bonus if you win anything

You havent made it clear whether you used a 'bot'. Actually, what was the amount that you tried to cash out? Do the terms disallow 'bot play'? If it's not disallowed then bonus abuse is too vague a term for the casino to use. Otherwise KK will be the king of bonus abusers which of course he isnt. Maybe Redarmy should come and make things clearer otherwise new players will be afraid to sign up and fall foul of the casino's bonus abuse terms.

 

[The Dude]

She already PABd

The casino's investigation detected "bot" play for seven hours.

This breaches their terms and conditions:

If you use multiple browsers or attempt to manipulate or ascertain
information concerning the Casino software code or are involved in
collusion, you will forfeit all money and be deactivated as a player.
All wagers must be placed through the user interface provided on the
Casino. Any wagering through other means, including the use of a "robot"
player, is strictly forbidden without the express consent of Betfair.
The Service Providers reserve the right to prohibit any player from
participating in any and all games, and may, where situations warrant,
freeze the chips of any player suspected of cheating in any form. The
Service Providers further reserve the right to restrict seating and/or
to prohibit players from playing in a particular game, including
restricting two or more players from playing together at the same game.

Betfair also reserves the right not to pay the first deposit bonus to
any customer that it suspects to be abusing this promotion.

 

[Roar]

She already PABd

The casino's investigation detected "bot" play for seven hours.

This breaches their terms and conditions:

This is really disturbing news from a gaming company I regard as supreme and a standout amongst the driftwood on the usual online gaming fare.

On this Forum alone (never mind anywhere else) there are multiple complaints that Betfair are unable to furnish play history. Their technology does not extend to the reproduction of a players hand history.

In the wake of this technological break-down comes allegations of 'bot' play.

It must be said from the outset there is not a speck of evidence that the player used a 'bot'. A company that can not reproduce play history on demand is unlikely to possess enabled technical sophistication to detect 'bot' play on a whim.

But let's assume the player was using a 'bot' for arguments sake.

A 'bot' can not alter the game. A 'bot' can not extend an advantage over any game that is not already inherent within the rules of the casino game. A 'bot' can not generically render an increase in the player's chance of winning ANY hand.

Further, BetFair activley encourage and promote the use of 'Bot play' on their 'peer to peer' gaming interface and have made sophisticated tools to enable such 'bot' participation.

You see it is okay in BetFair's eyes for one player to make use of a 'bot' to play against another player (as long as BetFair collect it's commission). BetFair will even give you the tools (API) to make it happen.

But woe betide if a player who chances upon a little mechanical assistance to enhance his play at that dreadfully slow, cumbersome and frequently disconnecting Chartwell software that BetFair insist on using.

Hypocrisy at it's finest.

To crown it all disaffected players are invited to take their issues to none other than that paragon of licensing virtue the Malteese LGA. Oh brother!!

 

[dynamitewoman]

Casino regs

I dont involve myself in any serious way with casinos because they seem to have the same basic principles and ideology of the online bingo sites. MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY is the common theme among the gaming venues.
When you sign up as a member, you must agree to their omnipotent powers or just not participate at all as an active member.
So, in all reality, it does no good at all appealing to any third party faction, unless they hold some kind of negotiating powers or "ace" up the sleeve.
Most of the " site approval emblems" by gaming commissions and monitoring groups are simply money making ventures that are symbiotic in nature...you give me money or promotion and I will say your site is very approved and fair.
If they were any good at all as structured monitors and regulation minders, there would be absolutely NO doubt whether sites have houseplayers, bots or over the top house edged rules. If they had their eyes on, a players use of an auto device or bot should be detected when it is occurring...NOT when a withdrawal is requested..as with bingo sites common multiple account rule advantage.
it is almost an open invitation for players to "get over" on a site. A dare, if you will.After all, sites get over on players on a daily and continuing basis as standard operating procedure.

 

[The Dude]

I'm pretty sure that Chartwell does record gameplay.

The bottom line is that the casino detected bot play, which is clearly forbidden in their terms and conditions. Every company has a right to protect itself from players who use bots, no matter the reason. If they don't want that play, and this is explicit in their terms and conditions, then don't use bots.

I don't allow members to sign up using bots in this forum. This is one of the reasons that the sign-up process is moderated; each sign-up is reviewed. If I had the forum wide open for anyone to join, the numbers would be way out of whack. I delete 3-5 bogus sign-ups a day - all bots or potential spammers. It's my right to make this rule.

Betfair (and every casino that I know) has the same rule. They don't want bot play. If they detect bot play - they'll close the account.

If this player wants to protest this, the best course of action is to contact the casino's licensing jurisdiction. There is an official process available for solving these problems; it's up to players to utilize these agencies and make them earn their pay.

 

[Jufo]

I'm pretty sure that Chartwell does record gameplay.

If that's the case why have they failed to send me my play history that occured on 20th May 2008? After exchanging more than 10 e-mails with customer support, the only answer I got was that it is "too much effort" for them. It is a serious player security issue if the player is not able to review the results he has received. How can a casino that fails to provide such basic information be accredited here?

 

[The Dude]

If that's the case why have they failed to send me my play history that occured on 20th May 2008? After exchanging more than 10 e-mails with customer support, the only answer I got was that it is "too much effort" for them. It is a serious player security issue if the player is not able to review the results he has received. How can a casino that fails to provide such basic information be accredited here?

Do you have a copy of that email? I'd like to see it. Thanks!

 

[GaryWatson]

As Roar said, Bot play will not affect the outcome of the gameplay.

I can't see an issue with that other than a player setting a bot to fullfil playthrough requirements, either way, the playthrough should really be set in a way to ensure a player does not have a % advantage buy covering the playthrough only.

Also, what is considered bot use, the auto play button?

I can understand the banning of bot use in skill games but not casino games. I dont get it

 

[Jufo]

Do you have a copy of that email? I'd like to see it. Thanks!

I PM'd you some of the e-mails I received.

 

[Roar]

I'm pretty sure that Chartwell does record gameplay.

The bottom line is that the casino detected bot play, which is clearly forbidden in their terms and conditions. Every company has a right to protect itself from players who use bots, no matter the reason. If they don't want that play, and this is explicit in their terms and conditions, then don't use bots.

I don't allow members to sign up using bots in this forum. This is one of the reasons that the sign-up process is moderated; each sign-up is reviewed. If I had the forum wide open for anyone to join, the numbers would be way out of whack. I delete 3-5 bogus sign-ups a day - all bots or potential spammers. It's my right to make this rule.

Betfair (and every casino that I know) has the same rule. They don't want bot play. If they detect bot play - they'll close the account.

If this player wants to protest this, the best course of action is to contact the casino's licensing jurisdiction. There is an official process available for solving these problems; it's up to players to utilize these agencies and make them earn their pay.

Firstly, the Forum sign-up process using a bot would be considered a SPAM issue and can be distinguished from the subject of an individual player seeking an enhanced online gaming experience.

Secondly, every Casino does not prohibit the use of a Bot. Microgaming give you a bot to play with such is the true reality of the situation. A bot increases the speed at which games can be played. More games, more wagers, more turnover, more player losses, more player deposits, more casino profit yada yada yada.........

The Casino did not detect bot play. The Casino claimed it detected bot play. Big difference. This is a Casino that can not furnish Play logs of game history. Why would you believe they could detect bot play?

I agree the only practical recourse for a disaffected player is Maltese LGA however hopeless that particular situation might be (which is another lamentable online gaming story).

It would be good to see these online gaming issues dealt with by regulatory authorities but for the moment they seem to be too busy collecting Licensing fees.

/

 

[chuchu59]

She already PABd

The casino's investigation detected "bot" play for seven hours.

This breaches their terms and conditions:

There are 2 issues here, bonus abuse and wagering thru 'bot' play. The use of 'bot play' does not necessarily equate to bonus abuse but rather the games placed thru robot play should be declared null and void. In case Betfair insists that there was a robot involved, it should reinstate the balance (together with bonus) to where it was before 'bot play' was detected.

 

[The Dude]

Even though MGS incorporates a "bot" in their games (the auto play feature), they still forbid players from using their own robot programs:

(Enter Casino Name) reserves the right, in its unfettered discretion, to void any winnings and confiscate any balance in your Casino account in any of the following circumstances:

If you are found cheating or if it is determined by (enter casino name) that you have employed or made use of a system (including machines, computers, software or other automated systems) designed specifically to defeat the Casino;

Bots are designed to defeat the system. They do what players can't do - play for an unlimited amount of time without a break. We can argue until the cows come home whether or not bots are an effective way to break the bank - that's not the issue here. (In my opinion, you have to be an idiot to use a bot since it only will make you lose your money faster - the house has the edge, right? )

The issue is that the casino has the right to forbid this play when detected. My example by the way concerning blocking bots and potential spammers from the forum was analogous to the rights of companies to forbid whatever activity they don't desire - not actual bots themselves.

Then of course we have the issue of whether or not Chartwell casinos can effectively detect this sort of thing. I hope this thread can resolve this question.

 

[Komodo]

As Roar said, Bot play will not affect the outcome of the gameplay.

I can't see an issue with that other than a player setting a bot to fullfil playthrough requirements, either way, the playthrough should really be set in a way to ensure a player does not have a % advantage buy covering the playthrough only.

Also, what is considered bot use, the auto play button?

I can understand the banning of bot use in skill games but not casino games. I dont get it

I can tell you the issue here. A casino site migth offer a 100$ bonus with a wagering condition of 5000$ overall. For a 5000$ wager youre expected to lose about 25$ in BJ and a few other games,so you are expected to earn about 75$ on that bonus, probably a bit less, counting misclicks and non-optimal plays.
And it migth take a month or so even with 5$ bets since its 1000 hands that has to be played, so the income its not that great, but at least you win something, have some fun , and dont have to lose money overall like most casino players do.

However, with a bot its something else, because the whole wagering can be done without any work, with optimal play and within just a few min instead of a whole month!

 

[zuga]

And it migth take a month or so even with 5$ bets since its 1000 hands that has to be played, so the income its not that great, but at least you win something, have some fun , and dont have to lose money overall like most casino players do.

It would take a couple of days at most by grinding $1 a hand...if playing $5 a hand youll meet WR in less then 12h ..depending on software speed...

 

[Komodo]

It would take a couple of days at most by grinding $1 a hand...if playing $5 a hand youll meet WR in less then 12h ..depending on software speed...

yeh, rigth... I would like to see you play 5000 hands in just a couple of days
Also Im pretty certain no human bein on this planet can play BJ for 12 straigth hours with optimal strategy in every hand.

 

[Roar]

Even though MGS incorporates a "bot" in their games (the auto play feature), they still forbid players from using their own robot programs:

(Enter Casino Name) reserves the right, in its unfettered discretion, to void any winnings and confiscate any balance in your Casino account in any of the following circumstances:

If you are found cheating or if it is determined by (enter casino name) that you have employed or made use of a system (including machines, computers, software or other automated systems) designed specifically to defeat the Casino;


Bots are designed to defeat the system. They do what players can't do - play for an unlimited amount of time without a break. We can argue until the cows come home whether or not bots are an effective way to break the bank - that's not the issue here. (In my opinion, you have to be an idiot to use a bot since it only will make you lose your money faster - the house has the edge, right? )

No problems with the logic on the last point.

But MG are not concerned with say BJ playing bots in any way shape or form. MG are concerned with a manipulation of the game/software so that it operates other than 'normally'. Besides, the only 'bots' I am familiar with are in no way designed or operated to either defeat or cheat the system.

You can beat a game with a bonus - not a 'bot'. The 'bot' is innocent. Don't blame the 'bot'.

BTW - where is Red Army?? I hope he hasn't changed his colors........to a shade of say...................yellowish.

Only kidding big Red. Come on, we're waiting for you to get involved here.

//

 

[Komodo]

You beat the game with bot+bonus. Anything unclear?
Just the bonus wont help, since you still have to do all the work.
The bot is not innocent, since it does all the work and also employs optimal strategy which you probably dont.

 

[zuga]

yeh, rigth... I would like to see you play 5000 hands in just a couple of days
Also Im pretty certain no human bein on this planet can play BJ for 12 straigth hours with optimal strategy in every hand.

LOL thats all i have to say

 

[Jufo]

yeh, rigth... I would like to see you play 5000 hands in just a couple of days
Also Im pretty certain no human bein on this planet can play BJ for 12 straigth hours with optimal strategy in every hand.

On faster softwares you can play 5000 hands in about 6-8 hours. I have completed a wagering requirement of 100 000$ in one evening. Chartwell software is slower though.

You beat the game with bot+bonus. Anything unclear?
Just the bonus wont help, since you still have to do all the work.
The bot is not innocent, since it does all the work and also employs optimal strategy which you probably dont.

Playing optimal strategy in BJ involves no skill at all. What the bot does is just save time and effort. You could teach your dog to press the correct buttons and the end result would be the same.

I do agree that bots are harmful to the industry in general. However there is a difference between reserving the right to void winnings and actually applying this clause without proper reason/evidence.

 

[Komodo]

On faster softwares you can play 5000 hands in about 6-8 hours. I have completed a wagering requirement of 100 000$ in one evening. Chartwell software is slower though.

Most of the gamblers dont have neither your ability or balls to wager 100k in an evening.

Playing optimal strategy in BJ involves no skill at all. What the bot does is just save time and effort. You could teach your dog to press the correct buttons and the end result would be the same.

First there are a skill factor. Its not that big, but there is one.
Combining that with a bots extreme speed and stamina, then you can abuse every casino out there who make generous offers or promotions.

I do agree that bots are harmful to the industry in general. However there is a difference between reserving the right to void winnings and actually applying this clause without proper reason/evidence.

If they have proof of him using a bot, I think it is a proper reason.

 

[Roar]

You beat the game with bot+bonus. Anything unclear?
Just the bonus wont help, since you still have to do all the work.
The bot is not innocent, since it does all the work and also employs optimal strategy which you probably dont.

You can beat the game with a bonus and no 'bot'.

You can beat the game with a bonus and a 'bot'.

You can NOT beat a game without a bonus playing with a 'bot'.

You can NOT beat a game without a bonus or a 'bot'.


We don't need Columbo to detect the culprit.

There seems to be a consensus building that playing without a 'bot' will render the life of online players a little more miserable inasmuch they will suffer a higher rate of loss.

The rhetorical question that comes to mind is to what extent does the prohibition of 'bots' fulfill the Casinos obligation toward 'Responsible Gambling'?

Does the 'Responsible Gambling' charter, to which BetFair are apparently fully committed, seek to reduce an individuals propensity to loss? To what extent does the prohibition on 'bot' play promote 'Responsible Gambling' and likewise reduce an individuals propensity to financial loss?

Seems to me the prohibition of 'bots' is all about increasing the chances of loss in direct contradiction to the objectives contained within so called 'Responsible Gambling'.

>

 

[Komodo]

Maybe you think poker bots and superusers should be allowed too???
After all it just saves time and effort since the games are beatable and most players will lose their money anyway?

Betfair rigthfully dont allow bots for bonus wagering.
You can make a hundred other post and explain how much you love the bots if you want, but it doesnt change the fact that it is prohibited.
If OP did use a bot he deserve to lose his money.
To state that bot use is not an advantage is just ridiculous.

 

[zuga]

yeh, rigth... I would like to see you play 5000 hands in just a couple of days
Also Im pretty certain no human bein on this planet can play BJ for 12 straigth hours with optimal strategy in every hand.

Just recently i played at Betfair, deposited 75 euros and got 70euro bonus. It took me around 4h to clear the wagering requirements playing 3X5euro hands, some 5 a hand and 3x1euro a hand(BJ of course).The software was so slow , and thats why it took me that much to meet WR. If i was to play 1 a hand it would probably take me a couple a days to meet the playthrough(playing several hour per day)
So Komodo something is telling me you have never played BJ online...

 

[GaryWatson]

Its the bonus system that needs to be changed.

Open for abuse by both the site and player.

I dont see the point of using a bot if the casinos did their sums right and stopped offering off the wall bonuses.

 

[Shocked]

Here's the story:

<snip>

Pfft.

You must have made well over a grand excluding bonus and deposit by using the bonus they provided (I presume you just did the big bets at the start as 4x246=984) and you're moaning about 246 that you were quite willing to lose anyway? If you were playing other games or you consistently betting high then I'd agree that it's unfair, but risking promotional cash then doing tons of small bets does sound dodgy..and frankly, I'd stop moaning and just enjoy that huge amount of money you got - many places would just return your deposit.

My 2p

 

[Komodo]

Its the bonus system that needs to be changed.

Open for abuse by both the site and player.

I dont see the point of using a bot if the casinos did their sums right and stopped offering off the wall bonuses.

Why would they want do that if these promotions make money for them???

 

[GaryWatson]

Why would they want do that if these promotions make money for them???

Not Betfair specifically.

Im talking more of players taking the playthrough to the letter and being labeled a bonus abuser.

If a site is crazy enough to offer a player the edge. That will only invite players to abuse (take advantage of the bonuses).

I dont see a bonus as a money making method. Only as a way to extend play.

Most of us realize that bonuses are there as incentives to play.

I consider it entrapment if a player is given an edge over the house.

That's not how bookmakers and casino's work, nor has it been for 100's of years. Why change now?

A BookMaker makes the "books". They are only accountants, keeping the house edge to maintain profits.

If a bookmaker offers me 3/1 for both horses on a 2 horse race, I will snap their fingers off. That is not abuse. That is piss poor bookmaking.

So I say if a player can gain a house edge over a Casino because of the bonus structure, then they havent done their accounts right. They deserve to lose. It's not abuse.

As for the bot thing, they should be extinct if bonuses were set up right. Who wants to lose quicker without getting the pleasure of playing the games.

 

[Jufo]

First there are a skill factor. Its not that big, but there is one.
Combining that with a bots extreme speed and stamina, then you can abuse every casino out there who make generous offers or promotions.

The skill factor of BJ is absolutely zero as long as you can look at the right spot on a colored chart. If you are able to read, that's good enough. A person who is capable of setting up and configuring a bot on his computer, is probably not completely clueless about BJ strategy.

If they have proof of him using a bot, I think it is a proper reason.

Yes, but there are two things here that are problematic. First, I have seen many cases of casinos accusing players of using a bot when that has not been the case. It seems that they try to use that as an excuse to not pay winnings even if there is no evidence of bot playing.

The second thing is that before this complaint there was another complaint of Betfair confiscating winnings due to "promotional abuse" without explaining what they meant. So it seems that Betfair has taken the direction of making up excuses to confiscate winnings from bonuses. Next time they might say that they are confiscating winnings because "player played too low-house edge games with too little risk and therefore was not playing the bonus in the spirit that it was intended".

The rhetorical question that comes to mind is to what extent does the prohibition of 'bots' fulfill the Casinos obligation toward 'Responsible Gambling'?

Does the 'Responsible Gambling' charter, to which BetFair are apparently fully committed, seek to reduce an individuals propensity to loss? To what extent does the prohibition on 'bot' play promote 'Responsible Gambling' and likewise reduce an individuals propensity to financial loss?

That is a VERY valid question! The casinos don't make much money out of responsible players who play carefully. It is the irresponsible players who re-deposit, chase losses and tilt, that makes the revenues for the casinos. Casinos say that they support "Responsible gaming" but at the same time they need plenty of irresponsible gaming to be able to make a profit. If you look at how bonuses work, the value of the bonus increases, the more risky you play it. How can rewarding taking big risks support the principle of responsible gaming? A bot has the advantage that it doesn't re-deposit (hopefully ), chase losses or completely tilt when it hits a losing run, where as people do. That's why using bots would fully support Resposible Gaming.

If a site is crazy enough to offer a player the edge. That will only invite players to abuse (take advantage of the bonuses).

So I say if a player can gain a house edge over a Casino because of the bonus structure, then they havent done their accounts right. They deserve to lose. It's not abuse.

I think they know what they are doing. It can be a good business decision to let player win a little bit because he will most likely come back and lose back those winnings plus much more. Bonuses can be used to get people addicted to playing and winning, so that they will come back much more than they would otherwise. Advantage players are just a small unfortunate side effect of this business plan.

 

[Komodo]

Not Betfair specifically.

Im talking more of players taking the playthrough to the letter and being labeled a bonus abuser.

If a site is crazy enough to offer a player the edge. That will only invite players to abuse (take advantage of the bonuses).

I dont see a bonus as a money making method. Only as a way to extend play.

Most of us realize that bonuses are there as incentives to play.

I consider it entrapment if a player is given an edge over the house.

That's not how bookmakers and casino's work, nor has it been for 100's of years. Why change now?

A BookMaker makes the "books". They are only accountants, keeping the house edge to maintain profits.


So I say if a player can gain a house edge over a Casino because of the bonus structure, then they havent done their accounts right. They deserve to lose. It's not abuse.

As for the bot thing, they should be extinct if bonuses were set up right. Who wants to lose quicker without getting the pleasure of playing the games.

Your missing the main point here. To have a few adavantage players who plays with optimal strategy and take part in a promotion is not a big deal for a casino.
To have 1500 players who signs in a and complete the wagering with bots is.

That's not how bookmakers and casino's work, nor has it been for 100's of years. Why change now?

A BookMaker makes the "books". They are only accountants, keeping the house edge to maintain profits.

As for this sentences, I dont know what you are talking about.
There has always been casino games and bookmaker odds that has been possible to beat for players who know what they are doing.

I consider it entrapment if a player is given an edge over the house.

And as I said earlier. The bonus doesnt automatically give the player an edge since you still have to know how to play these games with optimal strategy.
90-95% of the players wont play with optimal strategy without bot help.

The skill factor of BJ is absolutely zero as long as you can look at the right spot on a colored chart. If you are able to read, that's good enough. A person who is capable of setting up and configuring a bot on his computer, is probably not completely clueless about BJ strategy.

Lets take a more complicated example than blackjack then.
Can you play optimal strategy in casinoholdem without assistance or strategy calculators?
About zero chance!
That game can easily be programmed into a bot as well.

 

[Roar]

Maybe you think poker bots and superusers should be allowed too???
After all it just saves time and effort since the games are beatable and most players will lose their money anyway?

Betfair rigthfully dont allow bots for bonus wagering.
You can make a hundred other post and explain how much you love the bots if you want, but it doesnt change the fact that it is prohibited.
If OP did use a bot he deserve to lose his money.
To state that bot use is not an advantage is just ridiculous.

Komodo the issue I am raising is whether the BetFair 'bot' prohibition is legitimate in the context of their commitment and obligation to 'Responsible Gambling'.

I understand the obligation to 'Responsible Gambling' is voluntary and therefore BetFair is in no way legally obliged to adhere to 'Responsible Gambling' principles. But I could be mistaken. It maybe the case that BetFair is complelled to practice 'Resonsible Gambling' to retain it's licence to operate under the Maltese LGA.

If that is the case then I believe an arguable case exists that the prohibition of 'bot' play offends the terms and conditions of the Maltese LGA regulations.

You are convinced that 'bot' play offers a player the means and opportunity to wager at his best.

Logically, the prohibition of 'bot' play would then work in the opposite direction and impose a directly detrimental effect on the players best financial interests. Artificially ensuring the player makes less than optimal wagers in the Casino can hardly be described as best 'Responsible Gambling' practice.

>>

 

[Komodo]

You are convinced that 'bot' play offers a player the means and opportunity to wager at his best.

Logically, the prohibition of 'bot' play would then work in the opposite direction and impose a directly detrimental effect on the players best financial interests. Artificially ensuring the player makes less than optimal wagers in the Casino can hardly be described as best 'Responsible Gambling' practice.

You are completely out of line here and its probably pointless to discuss this issue further.

 

[Komodo]

Its the bonus system that needs to be changed.

Open for abuse by both the site and player.

I dont see the point of using a bot if the casinos did their sums right and stopped offering off the wall bonuses.

Its more like the definition of abuse that should be more clearly defined.
As it is now, the casinos can use that term pretty much as they please.
In my opinion abuse is creating multiple accounts or doing all the play with a robot etc.
Abusing is not playing with optimal strategy and making some money as some casinos interpret it too be.

 

[GaryWatson]

As for this sentences, I dont know what you are talking about.
There has always been casino games and bookmaker odds that has been possible to beat for players who know what they are doing.

No, one beats a proper bookmaker. You find a good bet on, say a football game. Take your odds from the bookie, the price will go down for the next person.

Unless the bookie is gambling, he will lay off the bet with another bookie who has taken more bets for the other side. They always stay ahead of the game.

The problem is some bookies are gamblers by nature and do not lay off their bets. That is where the problem lies.

To put it into a casino perspective, some of the smaller casinos are not doing their homework on bonuses. Out comes the vague term, bonus abuse to cover the arse up they made.

Betfair is pretty stable financially, but some sites are not, some are just outright greedy.

The playthrough should be set in stone.

Betfair & other large sites can afford to offer a few extra incentives because they have the volumes to cover it but if a playthough is not enough to maintain their advantage, it is open to abuse.

It's only really those who are out to exploit bonuses who are taking the playthrough to the letter. Most see a $250 bonus as $250 bonus, they dont need a calculation which will tell them if they play so many games, they will be 2.1 % ahead, or whatever.

In that respect, the bonus system is, in many cases poorly designed. As the bonuses increase, so does the bonus abuse claims. Thats not good for anyone. They should do their sums and eliminate the issue.

As for the bots, keep the bonuses, just take a way the edge by increasing the playthrough, bonus and bot abuse becomes irrelevant.

 

[Komodo]

To put it into a casino perspective, some of the smaller casinos are not doing their homework on bonuses. Out comes the vague term, bonus abuse to cover the arse up they made.

You are dead wrong here.
They know perfectly well the exact EV for every promotion they send out.
What they dont know is how many players who will participate.
What messes things up for them with these promotions is when 1500 bot players signs up and takes advantage of the generous offer.

 

[GaryWatson]

You are dead wrong here.
They know perfectly well the exact EV for every promotion they send out.
What they dont know is how many players who will participate.
What messes things up for them with these promotions is when 1500 bot players signs up and takes advantage of the generous offer.

We will need to agree to disagree. I am not disputing your argument for the bots but I am on the bonus structure.

 

[thelawnet]

Komodo the issue I am raising is whether the BetFair 'bot' prohibition is legitimate in the context of their commitment and obligation to 'Responsible Gambling'.

I understand the obligation to 'Responsible Gambling' is voluntary and therefore BetFair is in no way legally obliged to adhere to 'Responsible Gambling' principles. But I could be mistaken. It maybe the case that BetFair is complelled to practice 'Resonsible Gambling' to retain it's licence to operate under the Maltese LGA.

If that is the case then I believe an arguable case exists that the prohibition of 'bot' play offends the terms and conditions of the Maltese LGA regulations.

You are convinced that 'bot' play offers a player the means and opportunity to wager at his best.

Logically, the prohibition of 'bot' play would then work in the opposite direction and impose a directly detrimental effect on the players best financial interests. Artificially ensuring the player makes less than optimal wagers in the Casino can hardly be described as best 'Responsible Gambling' practice.

This is utter nonsense. Responsible gambling is about not losing more than you can afford to lose. It does not mean that you should not lose any money, or not play games in a losing manner

If Rupert Murdoch goes to a casino, and loses $100,000, that is not irresponsible for him because he is a billionaire.

By your clearly ridiculous argument, it's irresponsible to offer any other games to the player than blackjack, because they all have higher house edges, and that will make the player lose faster.

The only reason someone has a bot is because they don't want to gamble, they just want to profit from the bonus. There's nothing wrong with trying to profit from a bonus, if the casino doesn't like it they should change the bonus so that it's no longer profitable, and there's no way they can only demand players who lose.

But they can ban bots, and it makes sense for them to do so, because it's easy to identify, and those players clearly have no interest in gambling, only in bonus hunting.

Of course if betfair hadn't said "No bots allowed", then it would be unreasonable of them to complain, because the bot doesn't give a player an advantage, it plays the same strategy that a human would do. But as they have, then it's a fair cop. Casinos are entitled to implement whatever rules they wish, and providing they are clear and umabiguous, it's acceptable (e.g., 'No bonus abuse' is wishy-washy and meaningless, whereas 'No bots' is quite clear and nobody can be in any doubt as to what it means)

It's no different to saying "you must not play roulette at all having taken a bonus", that's the rule, and if you break it, you lose your bonus.

 

[GaryWatson]

The only reason someone has a bot is because they don't want to gamble, they just want to profit from the bonus.

Of course if betfair hadn't said "No bots allowed", then it would be unreasonable of them to complain, because the bot doesn't give a player an advantage, it plays the same strategy that a human would do. But as they have, then it's a fair cop.

That about sums the thread up.

Casinos are entitled to implement whatever rules they wish, and providing they are clear and umabiguous, it's acceptable (e.g., 'No bonus abuse' is wishy-washy and meaningless

This is the target for most players. Frustration gets in the way. Bonus arguments are getting far too common, and unfortunately some are justified.

 

[Roar]

This is utter nonsense. Responsible gambling is about not losing more than you can afford to lose. It does not mean that you should not lose any money, or not play games in a losing manner

If Rupert Murdoch goes to a casino, and loses $100,000, that is not irresponsible for him because he is a billionaire.

By your clearly ridiculous argument, it's irresponsible to offer any other games to the player than blackjack, because they all have higher house edges, and that will make the player lose faster.

The only reason someone has a bot is because they don't want to gamble, they just want to profit from the bonus.

I agree 'Responsible Gambling' includes not spending more than you can lose.

However, no online Casino is a position to determine the means of each individual that walks thru the door let alone whether they are your friend Rupert Murdoch. That's where your 'Responsible Gambling' argument disintegrates.

'Responsible Gambling' has a wider and greater meaning than the narrow interpretation you are currently applying to online Casinos. If your definition is correct than no online Casino would have ANY enforceable obligation toward 'Responsible Gambling' as they can quite correctly claim that is simply impossible to determine if any individual is gaming beyond their means.

To suggest otherwise is simply preposterous.

Prohibiting the player from access to a superior method of playing his cards is draconian to say the very least. It is tantamount to the house meddling, tampering or distracting the customer whilst in the process of attempting to play his best cards. Besides, card counting, which leaves 'bot' play for dead, is neither illegal nor prohibited in most B+M casinos.

Next thing you know online Casinos will be banning players from consulting the Wizard of Odds BJ strategy cards. Good grief! And you'll back on here shrugging shoulders and lamenting, "Them's the Casino rules. Let the players eat cake."

.

 

[GrandMaster]

You are dead wrong here.
They know perfectly well the exact EV for every promotion they send out.

There is ample evidence to the contrary. People in managerial positions in casinos have written rubbish like that betting small eliminates the house edge, or that even money bets in roulette are bonus abuse because the probability of the ball landing on 0 is so tiny. There is no evidence of sufficient mathematical expertise in casino management.

 

[thelawnet]

I agree 'Responsible Gambling' includes not spending more than you can lose.

However, no online Casino is a position to determine the means of each individual that walks thru the door let alone whether they are your friend Rupert Murdoch. That's where your 'Responsible Gambling' argument disintegrates.

'Responsible Gambling' has a wider and greater meaning than the narrow interpretation you are currently applying to online Casinos. If your definition is correct than no online Casino would have ANY enforceable obligation toward 'Responsible Gambling' as they can quite correctly claim that is simply impossible to determine if any individual is gaming beyond their means.

To suggest otherwise is simply preposterous.

Prohibiting the player from access to a superior method of playing his cards is draconian to say the very least. It is tantamount to the house meddling, tampering or distracting the customer whilst in the process of attempting to play his best cards. Besides, card counting, which leaves 'bot' play for dead, is neither illegal nor prohibited in most B+M casinos.

This argument is utterly specious, as I'm sure you are well aware. Computerised aids are ILLEGAL in B+M casinos. He's quite entitled to use the strategy card, but doing something which is contrary to the rules or law is just wrong. It's black and white. If you get caught, tough.

Have a look:

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)

Methods of Cheating
...
Using electronic aids
Illegally using a computer or similar device to aid in the employment of an otherwise legitimate strategy such as card counting.

Otherwise legitimate being the point.

 

[GrandMaster]

This argument is utterly specious, as I'm sure you are well aware. Computerised aids are ILLEGAL in B+M casinos.

Computerised aids are illegal where prohibited by law, e.g., Nevada, but not in the UK.

 

[GaryWatson]

You are dead wrong here.
They know perfectly well the exact EV for every promotion they send out.
What they dont know is how many players who will participate.
What messes things up for them with these promotions is when 1500 bot players signs up and takes advantage of the generous offer.

I've been told to study my wording lately. I decided to take time out to understand the english written language.

 

[sdaddy]

First of all, I would like to hear again from the OP and get a clear, unambiguous answer to the question: Did you or did you not use a bot to complete the WR?

If the answer is "no," then I think the casino has a responsibility to show convincing evidence of their accusation. A player shouldn't be guilty until proven innocent...it should be the other way around.

 

[GaryWatson]

First of all, I would like to hear again from the OP and get a clear, unambiguous answer to the question: Did you or did you not use a bot to complete the WR?

If the answer is "no," then I think the casino has a responsibility to show convincing evidence of their accusation. A player shouldn't be guilty until proven innocent...it should be the other way around.

Back on track

 

[Komodo]

I've been told to study my wording lately. I decided to take time out to understand the english written language.

EV/player of course.

 

[GaryWatson]

You are dead wrong here.
They know perfectly well the exact EV for every promotion they send out.
What they dont know is how many players who will participate.
What messes things up for them with these promotions is when 1500 bot players signs up and takes advantage of the generous offer.

I was just thinking of the contradiction in term. When they know the exact EV, they will have done their research on how many players they need to get their EV. You said they dont.

 

[thelawnet]

First of all, I would like to hear again from the OP and get a clear, unambiguous answer to the question: Did you or did you not use a bot to complete the WR?

If the answer is "no," then I think the casino has a responsibility to show convincing evidence of their accusation. A player shouldn't be guilty until proven innocent...it should be the other way around.

The casino needs to show it to the player and maybe their regulator.

But before that, the player, who is seeking help here, needs to answer that question.

There is a betfair bot that I imagine is being used heavily on their site. The varying bets stated would suggest not, but seven hours of play is bizarre.

If we could see the playlogs it would be fairly easily to determine whether or not a bot has been used. I'd expect to see constant play for a long period of time (not necessarily the whole seven hours), with no strategy errors, without any 'comfort break' time.