[CLOSED] Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there.

[scrabble73]

Hello.

I had a cashout at Jackpot City for £790 confiscated from Bellerock.

Their promotional terms are listed here:

http://www.jackpotcity.com/casino/en...s-terms.aspx#2

Their promotional terms do not include a link to their general terms and conditions anywhere. Instead, you'd have to find a tiny link at the bottom center of their page.

Their general terms are here:

http://www.jackpotcity.com/casino/en...s-terms.aspx#2

They decided they were going to confiscate my winnings for the following reason that appears under the GENERAL terms (It does not appear, nor does any other term that has similar verbiage appear under the PROMOTIONAL terms).

"5.6. The Casino is a member of the Belle Rock Entertainment (“BRE”) group of online casinos (the “Group”). You may not claim a sign- up bonus at the Casino if (1) prior to opening an Account at the Casino, you have opened an Account at any other online casino within the Group and claimed a sign- up bonus from such other casino and (2) having claimed such sign- up bonus from the other online casino within the Group, wagered such previously claimed sign- up bonus and initial deposit less than 100 times at the online casino granting you such sign- up bonus. Under no circumstances shall you be eligible for more than one sign- up bonus at the Casino even if you are able to open multiple Accounts thereat (in, for example, different currencies or languages). If your Account at the Casino has been credited with a sign- up bonus for which you (in our sole and unfettered discretion) are ineligible, the Casino shall retrospectively void such sign- up bonus and any winnings received by you after the sign- up bonus has been credited to your relevant Accounts."

I did indeed play at Gaming Club Casino with a signup bonus as well.

If they want to exclude customers from multiple promotions then that is fine, but what is not fine, is not sticking it on their promotions page in plain view so their customers don't make the mistake of signing up and depositing without giving enough play on a different casino. Instead they expect us to somehow find this term which is buried in their general terms with the rest of the legalese, and has no link on their promo page referencing this section. Considering this is a section dealing specifically with promotions, why isn't it on the promotions page?

Furthermore, why are they choosing a method of only confiscating after the wagering is done? What if I had lost my deposit? I certainly wouldn't be hearing from them that I was ineligible to play there and that they would be returning my deposit.

Awhile ago, I made the mistake of signing up and more than one Vegas Partners casino group (I signed up at 777 Dragon, Arthurian and Sun Vegas casinos), and instead of a big mess with them locking my accounts, they simply gave my first account a bonus, and emailed me regarding the other two accounts to explain that because I had received one bonus in their group, I was unable to claim any others.

That is a far less jarring solution if you want customers to claim one bonus per group. It is absolutely unethical to not tell customers plainly on their promotions page not to play at more one site on their group.

I am so positive that the casino is being unfair that I went through a number of other casinos I've played on and generated a list of casinos that restrict their bonuses to one casino per group and DO link this directly on their promotions page in their promotional terms and conditions:

Black Thunder Casino (playshare white label):

http://www.blackthundercasino.com/pr...conditions.htm

"# To be eligible to receive the opening offer (welcome bonus) a player must have NOT received a welcome bonus from any casino operated by Naden Inc. Naden Inc Casino List." (the last part is hyperlinked to a list of their casinos)


Sun Vegas Casino:

http://sunvegascasino.com/promotion-terms.asp

"Once a player has claimed the Match Bonus promotion at this casino, he/she in CANNOT claim it at any other Vegas Partner Lounge Casino (Unless Invited)"

English Harbour Casino:

http://www.englishharbour.com/promotion_details.php# (once you click the terms link)

Once a player has claimed the Welcome Bonus at a casino property controlled by the English Harbour Group of Casinos, that player will not be offered the Welcome Bonus a second time if they open an account at another property in the same group: Participating casinos are: English Harbour, SuperSlots, Caribbean Gold, Millionaire Casino, All Poker Casino and Silver Dollar Casino.

Powerbet Casino:

8. Promotional offers are not available to any players who have been locked out of any of our sister casinos including (but not restricted to): Crystal Palace, High Rollers Lounge, Cleopatras-Casino, American Grand, Golden Nile, Lucky Coin, Lucky Pyramid, Royal Circus and Real Vegas Online or Power Bet. In addition, we contribute to and makes use of a shared industry database of promotion abusers. Individuals known from this database to only make use of promotional offers without ever risking their own funds will not be eligible for this promotional offer.

Why is it that all of these casinos post their exclusion rules prominently, or simply exclude players from the first place, while Bellerock thinks it is acceptable to wait and see if a player loses his money first, then, if he actually wins, they can cite a buried rule that has no link on the promotions page as an excuse to steal?

Further making the situation worse is that I had a pretty positive experience and a fun time playing on Gaming Club. I like to use the Casino City website and it lists all the sites owned by Bellerock in one place, so I picked the next place that had a bonus I liked and signed up.

I've already private messaged the rep and given them my details and they are defending the casino's decision to steal.

[vinylweatherman]

This is clearly wrong. That "trap" term is a PROMOTIONAL condition, and should appear in the PROMOTIONAL terms and conditions.

The terms in the general conditions is a very long winded way of excluding players from more than one bonus within the group, but does not directly say so, but uses a very high 100x WR which few players are likely to manage just on their first deposit & bonus.
Membership at one casino causes them to send you mailers for the sign-up bonus in the other three currently accepting new players. King Neptune casino is ALSO part of this group, but is run separately under the general Carmen Media operation, with it being a separate Carmen subsidiary to BelleRock.
Although the term mentions the other casinos, they are not listed. The multiple account part of the terms relates to multiple accounts at a SINGLE CASINO, not SINGLE accounts at each of the four casinos in the group. This makes the term more confusing, as both definitions of "multiple accounts" are used, but are intertwined without clarity as to which type of "multiple account" is being referred to.

This is on top of an avalanche of problems that BelleRock have inflicted on the community, which includes an advert that is unlawful under UK and EU advertising rules regarding misleading statements about their Lucky Nugget offer.
Since this player has had money confiscated for not ferreting out a promotional term buried under general terms, with a hard to find link, I see no reason to pull any punches when the CASINO makes a similar error in failing to make themselves aware of the rules regarding the advertising of consumer offers. The tems ARE there, they are on the government website, it is BelleRock's responsibility to read them before launching misleading advertising copy into the EU and UK market places.
There are ALSO rules governing such advertising contained within the UK Gaming Act, which came into force last September 1st, which cover offers to the UK market, and this would cover ANY OFFER that quotes the UK Pound as a player currency option, since this would CLEARLY be intended for UK consumption.

[BBKPoker]

If what you are saying is true, that's pretty damn sketchy.

[bellerock]

Hi All,

In the General Terms and Conditions we state that the casino is part of a bigger group, namely Belle Rock, and that you cannot claim a sign up bonus at more than one casino in the group, or at the same casino by opening accounts in different currencies or languages. When a player opens an account at any of our casinos he/she is required to confirm that they have read the GENERAL Terms and Conditions before the sign up process can be completed. By confirming this the player has agreed that they have read the term in question and they are now aware that they cannot claim the sign up bonus again if they already have an account at a casino in the group. This term is neither ambiguous nor hidden; it is in the terms that every player confirms they have read before they can even consider a promotion offer. When claiming a sign up bonus (usually shortly after opening an account) a player does not have to "ferret out" this term as they have already read it.

I trust this clarifies the matter.

Best regards,

Belle Rock

[winbig]

Hi All,

In the General Terms and Conditions we state that the casino is part of a bigger group, namely Belle Rock, and that you cannot claim a sign up bonus at more than one casino in the group, or at the same casino by opening accounts in different currencies or languages. When a player opens an account at any of our casinos he/she is required to confirm that they have read the GENERAL Terms and Conditions before the sign up process can be completed. By confirming this the player has agreed that they have read the term in question and they are now aware that they cannot claim the sign up bonus again if they already have an account at a casino in the group. This term is neither ambiguous nor hidden; it is in the terms that every player confirms they have read before they can even consider a promotion offer. When claiming a sign up bonus (usually shortly after opening an account) a player does not have to "ferret out" this term as they have already read it.

I trust this clarifies the matter.

Best regards,

Belle Rock

And it would take how many words to, as a courtesy, actually remind the user (on the promotional page) of this before they make their first deposit and claim the SUB?


Karma goes a looooooooooong ways. Courtesies do as well.

Think about it, would you rather have a CUSTOMER remember your group as the one that seized $x,xxx of winnings, or as a group that went the extra mile and made sure there was no confusion as to whether or not they were entitled to a bonus BEFORE the fact?


Edit: While we're on the subject, if the whole group only allows one SUB per casino (this goes for any group), then why not simply have one login that works at all of the casinos in the group? A lot less confusion there.

[BBKPoker]

I looked through the promotional page and I've got to say I agree.

There is nothing reference that term anywhere on there.

There is a very valid point that you should be excluding players from promotions from the getgo rather than after they win or lose. Many other Microgamings do this, so why choose a policy that is going to naturally lead to player complaints?

[vinylweatherman]

Hi All,

In the General Terms and Conditions we state that the casino is part of a bigger group, namely Belle Rock, and that you cannot claim a sign up bonus at more than one casino in the group, or at the same casino by opening accounts in different currencies or languages. When a player opens an account at any of our casinos he/she is required to confirm that they have read the GENERAL Terms and Conditions before the sign up process can be completed. By confirming this the player has agreed that they have read the term in question and they are now aware that they cannot claim the sign up bonus again if they already have an account at a casino in the group. This term is neither ambiguous nor hidden; it is in the terms that every player confirms they have read before they can even consider a promotion offer. When claiming a sign up bonus (usually shortly after opening an account) a player does not have to "ferret out" this term as they have already read it.

I trust this clarifies the matter.

Best regards,

Belle Rock

It is well known in the software industry that a significant number of customers do NOT read the terms and conditions properly, but simply tick the "I agree" box just to get the process moving. While customers should not be doing this, a REPUTABLE business should NOT be taking advantage of this well known industry fact, but should be ensuring that EVERY OPPORTUNITY is taken to guide the customer into making the right choice.
The casino broke it's terms by granting the additional bonus in the first place. If the CASINO can't get it right, why should the players be expected to be 100% perfect.
The BelleRock bonus system is a delayed response mechanism and this would allow ample time for a check for other group accounts to be carried out, and the claim for a second bonus returned as refused. Belle Rock software is very good at refusing VALID claims, so there is clear evidence the this player was a victim of this problematic bonus redemption system, which, had it been working correctly, would have prevented any rules from being broken.

There are too many casinos that are prepared to watch in silence as players walk right into the trap because they have done what many do, failed to properly read the terms. Rather than watching, and rubbing one's hands with glee as you wait to pounce, a RESPONSIBLE business would ensure that someone intervenes, and helps the customer to make the correct choice. Don't forget, these are NEW customers, the casino cannot assume they are experienced online players, they may only have just started out, and have followed the SPAM to the casinos, which is going to make it look like they can have bonus after bonus.
One way to combat this problem is to be MORE HONEST with the advertising copy. I myself have received Lucky Nugget spam containing dishonest claims about the latest sign up offer, casino affiliates at some places are totally out of control, and they are interested in getting players to sign up and deposit at all 4 casinos, so as to get 4x the payments, they are not going to include discouraging news in their "marketing" that will lead to their target only bothering with one of the 4 casinos.

Having terms in more than one place, with no crosslinks, is also deceptive. Players may well have read what they see as the terms and conditions, but this may have only been one set. Promotional terms are easily visible when any bonus is claimed, however, GENERAL terms are tucked away "below the fold" of the home page, and are linked to by small, insignificant text, as opposed to the bold text that leads to promotional terms.

I don't believe this is an accident, these sites are desingned by university trained business psychologists, who know how to manipulate the behaviour of customers, and potential customers, by how advertising is both worded, and placed. A similar trick is used by the big supermarkets in order to subconsiously steer shoppers to avoid the low margin groceries in favour of the high margin items. Casinos in general use the same manipulative principles to make their offers look "good" when they are, in fact "crap".

[winbig]

Compare this to any coupon given out by a retail B&M or any other Internet business.

If the customer doesn't read the fine print on the coupon, does the business honor it, then go to the customer later and take the goods away?

Not.

[vinylweatherman]

Compare this to any coupon given out by a retail B&M or any other Internet business.

If the customer doesn't read the fine print on the coupon, does the business honor it, then go to the customer later and take the goods away?

Not.

This is true also of the internet. Sainsburys online changed the rules on coupon codes, and ENFORCED IT THROUGH THE SOFTWARE, it was a simple process.
Any attempt to use an invalid code was instantly rejected with an error message. It was the same problem as this scenario, there were general rules, but customer specific rules were added that would exclude specific customers from generally advertised offers based on their previous purchace and coupon redemption history. BelleRock use an in-house claims process, they have no excuse for not amending it to reject invalid claims. Had they done this, this player would have had the claim rejected, and would probably have played with the deposit only, and would have kept the winnings. By not rejecting the claim, the player was mislead into believing they were playing a fair game, with a chance to both win or lose, whereas the player was playing an unfair game, where winning was not a possible outcome.

[anniemac]

Meaning no disrespect here, but I knew that you could only collect a signup bonus at 1 of the BelleRock casinos and I, sad to say, am one of the players that don't read the T & C's like I am suppose to. I've been playing at Riverbelle for years so it's been there a while.

Like it's always said here, read the T & C's and take responsibility.