[CLOSED] Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there.

[winbig]

Originally Posted by BBKPoker

You don't have to agree to their T&C to download, install or register at their casino.

Really? Read it more carefully.

These Terms and Conditions apply to, and are binding upon you if you participate at the Casino.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I take "Participate at the casino" to mean if you download and register for an account at the casino. Also, it's not like they're trying to hide this - it's the first line in their T&C.

IMO, this clause forgoes any checkbox asking a player if they agree to the T&C. They're agreeing to the T&C by registering an account at the casino.

As it goes with any online casino, if you don't read the T&C before signing up, it's the player's fault, not the casino's. If a casino has horrible T&C's, then play elsewhere.

*Disclaimer: The above statements apply to any casino, not just the one being discussed in this thread.

[GrandMaster]

Originally Posted by winbig

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I take "Participate at the casino" to mean if you download and register for an account at the casino. Also, it's not like they're trying to hide this - it's the first line in their T&C.

IMO, this clause forgoes any checkbox asking a player if they agree to the T&C. They're agreeing to the T&C by registering an account at the casino.

It would be interesting to test it in a court of law whether a consumer can be bound by T&C whose existence he is not made aware of.

[vinylweatherman]

Originally Posted by GrandMaster

It would be interesting to test it in a court of law whether a consumer can be bound by T&C whose existence he is not made aware of.

It has already been investigated by the OFT, and it has been ruled that terms MUST be made clear to the consumer. It is not enough to have them hidden away, or use tricks to prevent them from reading them.

There have been cases with store cards, where the applicant has been told they have to sign up straight away, and have not been allowed to take a copy of the agreement home to read and understand first. Such agreements can be voided in the courts.
There is also the matter of distance selling regulations. If the customer is INVITED by Email, snail mail, or a phone call, and takes the offer and is then screwed over, they are entitled to redress. Unfortunately, as this regulation was about sale of goods, it only entitles the customer to their money back, BUT this would also apply to those who LOST at the casino if they subsequently found out that, had they won, they would not have been paid.
The rules would also cover signing up via an advertisement, the important thing being that the transactions take place remotely, and not at a physical shop. 14 days is allowed for the customer to demand their money back.

The current case about bank charges is not down to customers not seeing, understanding, and agreeing to the terms, but that the terms themselves are thought to be ILLEGAL in a consumer contract.

This is what particularly affects online casinos, where they are in a juristiction that is considered reputable. It does not matter whether the customer understood everything or not, it is down to whether the terms constitute an unreasonable balance in favour of the business. ALL casino terms actually fall into this category, but reputable casinos do not use their "FU Clauses" unless they KNOW they have a fraudster on their hands.

As well as the problem of 15% tax, this is another reason that can be putting casinos off from being regulated here in the UK. If they were regulated here, these terms and conditions could be challenged in the small claims courts very easily for UK players, and even EU based players would find it relatively easy to lodge an action.
Gibraltar based casinos are also much easier to target, however, this has to be under Gibraltean law, rather then UK or full EU law, as Gibraltar is only a member of the EEA, and not a full member of the EU itself.

It is more likely that debate on casino related forums is going to do more damage to a badly behaved casino than actions with regulators and the courts. This is because forums are becoming increasingly popular, often because a player gets burned, and THEN does the research - only to discover they should have done it the other way round. Said player is, at least, now aware of forums, and likely to add themselves to the 40% or so that already lurk, or participate in, one or more internet fora.

Anyone who has been following these BelleRock threads should now know TWO things:-

1) You are only allowed ONE bonus in the group.
2) Their CS is generally inept.

A little further digging will reveal that they have a "hidden" fifth casino in the group, not mentioned in ANY T & C, but could easily get a player screwed over on bonuses. (King Neptune).

[TDTAT]

IF Bellerock is reading this thread:

We have always had a decent relationship, but I have removed
your front page banners from my site. If you want happy players and affiliates, fix this problem.
Several perfect solutions have been posted in this thread by experienced gamers and affiliates.

Why in the world would you have these terms buried in
the USER aggreement if you did not want
someone to make a mistake and claim 2 bonuses? Maybe I am not
smart enough to figure that out. Why not make this important information clear?

[bellerock]

Hi All,

I apologize, a recent upgrade of the Jackpot City brand and software resulted in our neglecting to include the terms and conditions check box on the new registration page. This is currently being corrected. As with all our sites this should have been on the registration page, hence my earlier post.

That said, we are required to make the terms and conditions available to all players. We have done this by placing a link on the home page and all other pages of the site, meaning that all players have every opportunity of reading the terms and conditions before starting to play. The very first line states that by registering and playing you are bound by the terms and conditions. Point 5.6 states that you cannot claim sign up bonuses at multiple brands in the group, or at a single brand because of multiple languages or currencies. We know that many people don't read the terms and conditions and as a result we have always included the check box and link on the registration page as a last effort to ensure they are read. We are however not required to make sure that people read the terms and conditions, we are required to make sure they are available to be read, which we do.

The player had every opportunity to read the terms and conditions but chose to ignore them (they are even mentioned in the promotion terms and conditions and I quote "The Casino Terms and Conditions apply to this Promotion. In the event of a conflict between these Promotion-specific Terms and Conditions and the Casino Terms and Conditions, the Promotion-specific Terms and Conditions shall prevail but only to the extent that the Terms and Conditions conflict with one another." surely making you think I had better go and read those!) and continue playing in breach of term 5.6 (which means the player would have to have registered an account at one or more other casinos in the group, giving them further opportunities to read the terms and conditions including on the registration pages) and as such we stand by the action we have taken.

We have taken your comments regarding the terms and conditions into consideration and we are reviewing all terms and conditions and thank you for your input.

Again I apologize for my incorrect post earlier, just as we advise everybody to read the terms and conditions before playing, I guess I should have checked the registration page before posting.

Best regards,

Belle Rock

[SlotsWizard]

I hope that one of the things you will be doing is training the staff who grants bonuses to check first whether or not the player is eligible for it, the same way that the staff who processes withdrawals does.

Anything short of that is entrapment.

[GaryWatson]

Thanks for your input Bellrock rep. Also, could you put forward a suggestion to cross check whether or not someone is registered at other sites they may have overlooked? A standard Drivers licence/NI no./Passport no. (if available) should suffice & will go a long way to avoiding innocent error.

[BBKPoker]

Originally Posted by GaryWatson

Thanks for your input Bellrock rep. Also, could you put forward a suggestion to cross check whether or not someone is registered at other sites they may have overlooked? A standard Drivers licence/NI no./Passport no. (if available) should suffice & will go a long way to avoiding innocent error.

You still have not addressed that the term is pretty much buried, that you have no link to your general terms from the promotional page, and that you shouldn't be assigning bonuses in the first place to players at a new Bellerock casino if you don't intend on honoring their winnings.

The practice of issuing a bonus then removing a players winnings if they manage to win some money is a 100% bait and switch practice, and given the fact that you cross-market your brands and your term is not at all clearly posted on the relevant promotional pages, as well as the fact that you did not require the player to agree to the terms prior to signing up means that this player should be paid. It is dishonest to do otherwise, imo.

[scrabble73]

I've escalated this issue to the assistant gambling supervisor in Gibraltar thanks to a very helpful message from a member here. Also eCogra responded to my last email and told me they would investigate the issue further since I emailed them that the terms were not present to sign up.

[GaryWatson]

Originally Posted by BBKPoker

You still have not addressed that the term is pretty much buried, that you have no link to your general terms from the promotional page, and that you shouldn't be assigning bonuses in the first place to players at a new Bellerock casino if you don't intend on honoring their winnings.

The practice of issuing a bonus then removing a players winnings if they manage to win some money is a 100% bait and switch practice, and given the fact that you cross-market your brands and your term is not at all clearly posted on the relevant promotional pages, as well as the fact that you did not require the player to agree to the terms prior to signing up means that this player should be paid. It is dishonest to do otherwise, imo.

I am not disputing that point but I also feel they could & should flag certain issues before they arise