[CLOSED] Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there.

[scrabble73]

Originally Posted by vinylweatherman

When casino-on-net launched Reef Club, (and continues on with an excellent post

Thank you very much. Also, to the others who have private messaged me, and suggested complaining to Gibraltar regarding the layout of the terms, and what VWM in particular has posted in this thread about the term being excisable.

I will absolutely be pursuing a case with Gibraltar over this issue unless their representative sees the light and pays me what I am owed.

[GaryWatson]

Personally, I look closely at the TOS but I could still get caught out with their predatory attitude. I couldnt tell you what site I played on a few weeks ago, never mind a year ago. I only play the occassional Casino game. If I am registered with one of their partner sites, It normally tells me I already have a bonus at another site and am not elligable.

I agree, it is as much the sites fault for not checking before accepting the player. This confiscation scenario is getting a bit tiresome. It looks as though many are using it just to claim revenue.

[vinylweatherman]

Originally Posted by GaryWatson

Personally, I look closely at the TOS but I could still get caught out with their predatory attitude. I couldnt tell you what site I played on a few weeks ago, never mind a year ago. I only play the occassional Casino game. If I am registered with one of their partner sites, It normally tells me I already have a bonus at another site and am not elligable.

I agree, it is as much the sites fault for not checking before accepting the player. This confiscation scenario is getting a bit tiresome. It looks as though many are using it just to claim revenue.

The problem is that players still believe the casino story of it being "casual entertainment". They should treat their online gambling as they would treat a tax return. Keep permanent records of ALL accounts ever registered, and also keep records of any "bonus bans" that have been received. These records will serve their purpose whe some clueless idiot (or rogue affiliate) sends you an offer you are not eligible for. It is worth recording group associations, not just individual casino names, as often policy is group wide.
On top of this, an inspection of terms and conditions is a must, even when playing an offer sent to you by the casino itself. Many casino groups will tell you about the bonus at a sister site, but will not tell you that you are ineligible, perhaps by being a resident of an "evil country", or because you deposit with Neteller (Yes, that means YOU Reef Club / casino-on-net).

Casinos seem to think it OK to be an "advantage business", but that it is NOT OK to be an "advantage player".

The time will soon come when players will have to consult contract lawyers each time they sign up to a new casino, and perhaps take out insurance against being "ripped off", with the premiums being a damn good guide as to how reputable or rogue the INDUSTRY believes the casino to be.

[edlonger]

I submitted documents to them for a cashout from two places (River Belle and Jackpot City) and they locked my accounts and returned only one of the deposits?!

They then said they didn't get the documents and I had to resend them just now.

This is stupid

Should I "pitch a bitch" soon? They issued me bonuses at both places so I should be good to go?

[scrabble73]

I complained to eCogra who literally couldn't be bothered to do anymore than copy/paste the 5.6 term from the general terms and conditions completely at 100% ignoring the fact that they appear nowhere on the promotional page, and break ecogras rules regarding clearly posting their promotional terms.

These kinds of tactics are the lowest of the low. I have PAB'd with MaxD but haven't heard anything back from them or Max aside from a pm from him that he forwarded it to the rep and hasn't heard anything. No affiliate should be promoting this group of sites, especially since promoting the group together will just cause their players to have all their money stolen.

I'm absolutely irate, and I'm certainly complaining to Gibraltar since eCogra couldn't be bothered to give me a remotely satisfactory answer.

[RobWin]

Originally Posted by scrabble73

I complained to eCogra who literally couldn't be bothered to do anymore than copy/paste the 5.6 term from the general terms and conditions completely at 100% ignoring the fact that they appear nowhere on the promotional page, and break ecogras rules regarding clearly posting their promotional terms.

These kinds of tactics are the lowest of the low. I have PAB'd with MaxD but haven't heard anything back from them or Max aside from a pm from him that he forwarded it to the rep and hasn't heard anything. No affiliate should be promoting this group of sites, especially since promoting the group together will just cause their players to have all their money stolen.

I'm absolutely irate, and I'm certainly complaining to Gibraltar since eCogra couldn't be bothered to give me a remotely satisfactory answer.

It sure would be nice to see an eCOGRA Rep here at Casinomeister to comment on the bolded text above...I know I would like to hear what their thoughts on that one are...

[BBKPoker]

Alright, I was intrigued enough by this, so here is what I did:

I went to www.jackpotcity.com which redirected to this URL:

http://www.jackpotcity.com/casino/eng/index.aspx

I clicked the download button. I got a pop-up with the casino software download, there was nothing confirming or requiring me to agree to the terms and conditions anywhere so far.

I opened the casino software and got this page:

END USER LICENCE AGREEMENT

1. Licence

1.1. You are licensed to download and use this Microgaming front-end software (the ‘software’) to play Microgaming games at sites that are licensed to use Microgaming software. You may also copy the software for this purpose. This licence is granted subject to all of the terms and conditions in this End User Licence. Please read them carefully.

2. Restrictions

2.1. All rights in the software are reserved, and you may use the software only as licensed to you. Save as is expressly authorised in this licence, you may not copy, decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble or otherwise attempt to access the source code of the software, or modify, adapt, or translate the software, or otherwise do anything to or with the software that is not strictly required for normal licensed use. The architecture and code of the software is a valuable trade secret of Microgaming, and you undertake not to disclose any information relating to the architecture or code that you may obtain from downloading or use of the software.

3. PERMISSION FOR COOKIES

3.1. YOU AGREE THAT MICROGAMING CAN FROM TIME TO TIME USE A COOKIE ON YOUR DISK TO SAVE INFORMATION (SUCH AS USER NAME, PASSWORD, OTHER PERSONAL DETAILS, EMAIL ADDRESS) SO YOU DO NOT HAVE TO RE-ENTER THIS INFORMATION EACH TIME YOU VISIT THE SITE. THIS COOKIE CANNOT BE USED TO RUN PROGRAMS OR DELIVER VIRUSES TO YOUR COMPUTER, AND IS UNIQUELY ASSIGNED TO YOU. IT CAN ONLY BE READ BY A WEB SERVER IN THE DOMAIN THAT ISSUED THE COOKIE TO YOU. THE PRIMARY PURPOSE OF THE COOKIE IS TO ENABLE YOU TO SAVE TIME, AND FACILITATE FUTURE ACCESS TO THE SITE.

4. Transfer

4.1. You have no transferable rights in the software or this licence, and you may not sub-licence or rent out the software or assign or otherwise dispose of this software for value, nor attempt to do so.

5. LIMITATION OF LIABILITY

5.1. IN NO EVENT WILL MICROGAMING OR ITS LICENSEES BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY CONSEQUENTIAL, INDIRECT, PURE ECONOMIC OR INCIDENTAL DAMAGES, OR ANY LOST PROFITS OR LOST SAVINGS, EVEN IF A MICROGAMING REPRESENTATIVE HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH LOSS, DAMAGES, CLAIMS OR COSTS OR FOR ANY CLAIM BY ANY THIRD PARTY. MICROGAMING’S AGGREGATE LIABILITY AND THAT OF ITS SUPPLIERS UNDER OR IN CONNECTION WITH THIS AGREEMENT SHALL BE LIMITED TO THE AMOUNT PAID FOR THE SOFTWARE, IF ANY. NOTHING CONTAINED IN THIS AGREEMENT LIMITS MICROGAMING’S LIABILITY TO YOU IN THE EVENT OF DEATH OR PERSONAL INJURY ARISING FROM MICROGAMING’S NEGLIGENCE.

6. General

6.1. If any part of this licence is found to be invalid, void, or unenforceable, then the remainder of the licence shall remain in force. Nothing in this agreement shall affect any overriding statutory rights that you may have under the law of any competent jurisdiction.

7. Law

7.1. This licence shall be governed by English Law excluding any English conflict of law rules, and the courts of England shall have exclusive jurisdiction over all disputes arising from the use of the software or arising from this licence.


If you just skipped by there, there is not a shred of information in there pertaining to bonuses, limitations per group or any of the general terms that are buried on their web page.

On the signup page where I entered my information there is NO link to any terms or conditions, no URL anywhere for the terms, and nothing that discusses any promotional or general terms and conditions.

In other words, ANY customer is perfectly capable of signing up for a Bellerock casino without agreeing to ANY terms and conditions because at no point does the software prompt you to agree to ANY terms aside from the above listed terms.

Furthermore, I checked the terms of the Gaming Club signup bonus, which assuming they are the same now as when scrabbled signed up read as follows:

100% Match Bonus up to 100 offer at The Gaming Club Online Casino
This promotion (this "Promotion") is brought to you by The Gaming Club Online Casino (the "Casino") and is open to first time Player’s ("Player/s") at the Casino who open their first Real Money Account during the Promotion.

* As a Player you may choose the currency in which you wish to open your New Real Money Account. The available currencies are Pounds Sterling, US Dollars, Canadian Dollars and Euros. Under the terms of this Promotion if you choose to operate your new Real Money Account in Pounds Sterling and make a first single deposit of at least £10 (10 Pounds Sterling) you will receive a Sign-Up Bonus of £10 (10 Pounds Sterling) ("Sign-Up Bonus"). If you choose to operate your new Real Money Account in US Dollars and make a first single deposit of at least $50 (fifty US Dollars) you will receive a Sign-Up Bonus of $50 (fifty US Dollars) ("Sign-Up Bonus"), if you choose to operate your new Real Money Account in Canadian Dollars and make a first single deposit of at least C$50 (fifty Canadian Dollars) you will receive a Sign-Up Bonus of C$50 (fifty Canadian Dollars) ("Sign-Up Bonus") and if you choose to operate your new Real Money Account in Euros and make a first single deposit of at least €10 (fifty Euros) you will receive a Sign-Up Bonus of €10 (fifty Euros) ("Sign-Up Bonus").
* The Sign-Up Bonus must be played through 30 times (30x) by you before it can be transferred from your Bonus Balance to your Cash Balance ("Play Through Requirement").
* Wagering on all games except Roulette, Sic Bo, Craps, Baccarat, Table Poker, Casino War & Red Dog will count towards meeting the Play Through Requirement; however the percentage of the Sign-Up Bonus which may be wagered on certain games will vary as follows*:

Game


Percentage

Slots, Keno & Scratch Card games


100%

Video Poker, all Blackjacks


10%

All Roulette, Sic Bo, Craps, Baccarat, Table Poker, Casino War, Red dog


0%


* Progressive games will contribute to the Play Through Requirement as per the game type. For example, Progressive Slots will contribute 100% to the Play Through Requirement.
**Please note that games played using the gamble feature will not count towards the Play Through Requirement.

* After fulfilling the total wager requirements on your first bonus you can withdraw from your cash balance at any time.
* If you are resident in Netherlands, China, Israel, Denmark and The Russian Federation you are not eligible for this Promotion.
* Sign-Up Bonuses must be claimed within 72 hours of opening a Real Account.
* A Sign-Up Bonus must be claimed online and will be paid into the Bonus Balance of your Casino account as Casino credits within 24 hours of such a claim being made.
* If you open multiple accounts you will not be eligible for the Sign-Up Bonuses on each account. The Sign-Up-Bonuses are only available once per Player and/or per environment where computers are shared and/or per e-mail address.
* If the Sign-Up Bonus remains unused in your Bonus Balance for two (2) months or longer from the date the claim was made, the Sign-Up Bonus will be forfeited to the Casino.
* The Casino Terms and Conditions apply to this Promotion. In the event of a conflict between these Promotion-specific Terms and Conditions and the Casino Terms and Conditions, the Promotion-specific Terms and Conditions shall prevail but only to the extent that the Terms and Conditions conflict with one another.
* In the event of any dispute, the decision of the Casino management will be considered full and final. No correspondence will be entered into in this regard.
* The Casino management reserves the right to end or amend this Promotion at any time.
* Any terms not defined in this Promotion's Terms and Condition or the Casino’s Standard Terms and Conditions shall have the meaning ascribed to them in the Microgaming Bonus System Tutorial

** Please refer to the "Withdrawal Menu" in the Casino Bank for further details of how this affects your play

Again, no mention of limitation regarding claiming multiple bonuses in the group, no confiscation details etc. There is no legitimate reason to think that a player would have been forced to read the general terms (which what Bellerock is trying to enforce here) because IT IS NOT REQUIRED TO DO SO TO SIGNUP AND PLAY. Not a single acceptance of the general terms to enroll is required anywhere, and neither the promotional page, nor the terms that they link to when claiming the bonus list a single sentence about restricting the bonuses to one per group.

So no, Bellerock, your terms are not clearly posted, they are not easily accessible, and yes people DO need to "ferret it out" as you have written. I think you need to man up, admit you are wrong and pay the people affected by this.

This is an exceptionally bad business procedure in my eyes.

[BBKPoker]

To illustrate, I went from start to finish from jackpotcity.com creating an account to see where players are supposedly forced to accept the terms:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23559834@N08/2243216222/

Signup page.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/23559834@N08/2243216236/


First half of the signup screen.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23559834@N08/2242424727


Second half of the signup screen (notice, they have no tick box that you agree/accept their terms prior to hitting Submit).


http://www.flickr.com/photos/23559834@N08/2242424741/


And finally, registration successful, no terms anywhere in then signup process. as the rep is claiming.

On a sidenote, sorry I couldn't post the imgs in here directly, I'm apparently terrible at UBB code and it doesn't accept HTML.

[TDTAT]

Originally Posted by scrabble73

No affiliate should be promoting this group of sites, especially since promoting the group together will just cause their players to have all their money stolen.

I suggest to BelleRock that they address these issues
quickly as their banners are coming down quickly on my sites..
I was unaware of these issues and as an affiliate do not tolerate shady
behavior from any casinos.. (Edit: I was aware of the one bonus per group term,
but not of the placement of the terms)

If or if not the terms are there, just having them in the user aggreement is not
sufficient and is not the sign of a casino that wants happy players. This info should be clear and prominent.

[pacers31]

Personally, I will only take bonuses at a couple of places. The WR at most places ensure that you cannot come out ahead by using them. I find that playing for straight cash and getting paid straight cash is my best policy!