Royalvegas confiscated 8000 Euros - fraudulent claim

[rampaco3]

Before I play at any casino I check in the Casinomeister to see if the casino in the Rogue list.

I can see they are now there but I don't remember they were there when I played, could it be or am I dreaming ? I played duringSeptember. The rougue list cotain coule of sections so I might have missed it but I could not remember it was there.



They confiscated the winnings for now reason. They referred me to a term that concerned pattern of play they were not happy about.

I did play in a an aggressive pattern but this is the way I like to play.

Not only that, they lied to Ecogra knowing that game pattern won't be enough in order not to pay a winner.

While they told me the reason was a specified term (mentioned in the email they sent) , they told Ecogra that I have multiple accounts.


I have only a single account in Royalvegas, having a multiple account is a totally different term that they never mentioned before but did mentioned that to Ecogra

The sad story is that Ecogra probably does not check and does not care and just believe the casino in a case they decided to take for themselves legitimate winnings.

in a nutshell you can see the story thru the emails:

This is what they told me, it is so easy to find the big lie to ecogra and ecogra to me


Hi L



Thank you for your e-mail.



Leonidas your winnings were forfeit as they were generated from prohibited play, for bonus play through purposes, which is in contravention with the Terms listed in the Casinos Terms and Conditions.



More specifically your play has been found to be in contravention with Term 27. For your reference I have included both the Term itself and the URL to all of our Terms.



http://www.royalvegas.com/promotions...g=RVNEU_Direct



27. Before any withdrawals are processed, your play will be reviewed for any irregular playing patterns e.g. playing of equal, zero margin bets or hedge betting, which all shall be considered irregular gaming for bonus play-through requirement purposes.
Other examples of irregular game play include but are not limited to, placing single bets using your entire or the majority of your account balance, where the majority of that balance is made up of bonus balance. The Casino reserves the right to decide in its sole discretion which activities constitute “irregular play” for bonus play-through requirement purposes from time-to-time and to withhold any cash-ins where irregular play has occurred to meet bonus play-through requirements.



Leonidas the decision to refer this matter to ECOGRA is yours to make, but I can assure you that we are acting within the parameters set out by ECOGRA. We are confident that we have acted appropriately and are willing to justify our actions to ECOGRA if necessary.



Our stance remains, your purchase amount will be returned and the winnings have been seized by our Player Security Company.



Kind regards



John



Floor Manager


And this is what ecogra told me, totally different reason.

Ecogra also lied saying they checked, if they had checked they would have found the truth.

Dear L,



We have investigated your query with the casino and have made the following findings;



Your account has been linked to a number of other accounts at the casino through identifiers.


We have reviewed these identifiers and are satisfied that the operator has acted according to their Terms and Conditions in locking your account at <Approved Site>. For security reasons we are not at liberty to disclose the nature of the identifiers.



The casino has refunded your initial deposit of €100 to your NETeller account on the 26th of September 07.



Bearing the above in mind I must inform you that we find your dispute to be invalid.



Regards,

Tex Rees

[Casinomeister]

Let me guess, you placed a single bet with your entire balance on VP, BJ, or slots.

Other examples of irregular game play include but are not limited to, placing single bets using your entire or the majority of your account balance, where the majority of that balance is made up of bonus balance. The Casino reserves the right to decide in its sole discretion which activities constitute “irregular play” for bonus play-through requirement purposes from time-to-time and to withhold any cash-ins where irregular play has occurred to meet bonus play-through requirements.

These rules were there when you signed up, and by accepting the bonus you agreed to these rules. You should have not taken the bonus.

The sad story is that Ecogra probably does not check and does not care and just believe the casino in a case they decided to take for themselves legitimate winnings.

Sorry, but this is far from the truth. They are privy to the casino records. If fraudulent activity has been detected - then that's about it.

My guess is that you probably don't have more than one account, but you are sharing your computer (or identity) with other users. Do you share your computer with anyone else?

[rampaco3]

the casino said the reason was game pattern then ecogra said multiple accounts or shared computer, don't U see the discrepancy?

I don't share any information in my computer.

Second point. This kind of term that says, the casino reserve the right to decide what game pattern is something he likes AFTER play and what game pattern he does not like is not acceptible and was not acceptible for years.

Using these terms casinos did very bad things like not paying a whole country in the past.

Look what the term says

The Casino reserves the right to decide in its sole discretion which activities constitute “irregular play” for bonus play-through requirement purposes from time-to-time and to withhold any cash-ins where irregular play has occurred to meet bonus play-through requirements


how can you support such a term , even if I accept it and then the casino decide to confiscate winnings, it is bad bad bad.

Having multiple account is totally different, it is you trying to steal bonuses you are not deserve.

I played 200 a hand each hand I played and I PLAYED TRI CARD POKER.

The reason I played 200 a hand is because this was the max allowed and not because i wanted to use the deposit and bonus in a single hand.

Think about it, am I stupid or what ? why would I bet the deposit and bonus if I came to take advantge of the bonus ? Isn't it better to grind it in better games like Videopoker or Blackjack as you said using their autoplay betting small.

Even I wanted to be aggressive and take advantage of their bonus why would I continue to bet high after I win, isn't obvious that after I win I reduce the bet to make sure I am cashing out big.

I played the SAME each hand not raising and not decreasing the bet.

Again the reason it was 200 is because it was the max bet allowed.

I like to bet max hands if it is up to 2000 a hand, this is th way I play.


They can't tell me at the promo page, any game you wish to play , feel free to play and then after you play it they send you to a term that says, if you do that but not limited to this certain "that", and we might do that if we decide, this is again very bad and actually not a casino behaviour but a rgue operatin behaviour that should not be protected by any honest person.


Reg Ecogra, I am not exaggerating, they know thwy haven't checked.

The casino also know that, if not how can you explain the two different reasons mentioned for the no pay ???

[Stanford]

the casino said the reason was game pattern...

...how can you support such a term , even if I accept it and then the casino decide to confiscate winnings, it is bad bad bad....

rampaco3,

The industry is hurting with the loss of US players. Casinos are going to be running gambits to pull in players, but they are also going to be looking for reasons not to pay off. You really have to be careful.

If you are sharing your computer, there isn't much you can do. You will look like a fraudster. Assuming you are not a fraudster, you still have to be careful. Very careful.

Look at this rule:

“16. For any wager made, the wager is deducted from your Cash Balance first. If there is no cash available, then the wager is deducted from the Bonus Balance. This effectively means that credits in the Player's bonus balance are only played if there is no cash balance. “

If I read this correctly, all the lost money comes off your cash first. Only after you lose all your cash do you get to the bonus money.

Then you have:

“27. Other examples of irregular game play include but are not limited to, placing single bets using your entire or the majority of your account balance, where the majority of that balance is made up of bonus balance. The Casino reserves the right to decide in its sole discretion which activities constitute “irregular play” for bonus play-through requirement purposes from time-to-time and to withhold any cash-ins where irregular play has occurred to meet bonus play-through requirements.”

To tell you the truth, I don’t know what rule 27 even means in light of rule 16. I guess you have to make smaller and smaller wagers. At some point, you may not have anything but bonus money left. So you make a $50 bet and most of that is bonus money and that is irregular play – I guess. Who knows?

And you aren’t supposed to know. That’s what all that “sole discretion” mumbo jumbo is about.

If anyone wants to play this promo, PM me and we can discuss a strategy. You will need a big bankroll because you need to play this with some variance. But even if you score, you still might not get paid. Irregular play is just code for bonus abuse which is just code for smart play. This promo with its escape clauses is the Internet version of 3 Card Monti.

Last time in LV I watched a guy running 3 Card Monti on the sidewalk. One guy won to make it look legit. He was the accomplice. But the others lost at $100 a pop. That’s what this promo is like. And eCOGRA? – that would be the accomplice. Like FL told you, eCOGRA isn’t going to care. They are just there to make the game look legit.

Really, my advice is to learn to play poker. You won’t get scammed and it is a lot more fun. And if you want to play at a casino – don’t pick Fortune Lounge. And if your play is smart, don’t be surprised if the casino reneges. You are not really suppose to win you know.

Stanford.

[gmblpdam]

Casinomeister,
Why is it that you instantly jump on the back of the casinos? Especially a BS operation like Fortune Lounge. You are saying that he abused the bonus betting 200 a hand on 3CP? When he runs his balance all the way up to 8000 on a 100 bonus, how can he be abusing the bonus? He was clearly just doing some high stakes gambling, and that would seem like just the kind of person a casino would want playing at their operation. What isn't bonus abuse? Betting .25 a hand on keno until your balance is dwindled away? Or is that still a little abusey for you?

Quite honestly its a load of crap that a casino can do business in this manner and you are right behind them, backing them the whole way. If you aren't going to do anything about it, tell him that FL is a bunch of crooks and he shouldn't be playing there. But certainly don't blame him for abusing the bonus. Those rules in the T&C are a catch all, "we can do whatever we want" clause. It seems like 3/4 of the microgamings out there are rogue, and no one is doing anything about it. Not eCogra, and not you, the "watchdog" and "player advocate".

Brian, you did some great work in the past and I really think you were in it to help the players. But in the recent months it doesn't seem like you have done anything but take the side of the casino and sit back and collect your affiliate revenue. What changed?

[NASHVEGAS]

Those rules in the T&C are a catch all, "we can do whatever we want" clause. It seems like 3/4 of the microgamings out there are rogue, and no one is doing anything about it.

I agree (and chose in July 07 to never play another Micro. or RTG again,ever)......That is an option at least for those educated by reading this forum, granted the general public (non-reader's of this forum) per se may not realize this option. I am content with my choice given the entire current nature of these software platforms and their licensed/white-labeled casinos.

[lojo]

Wow... remember when the rules were the black letters on the white page and there was nothing in between? FL didn't have all the black filled in so they filled in the blanks, created terms as clear as any in the market today, and they're still called rogue when they enforce them?

We readers do not have all the info here. Mistakes happen, new information comes to light ~ somebody's right and somebody's wrong; casino or OP. Time will tell.

The other black letters on a wheat page... I don't see Bryan taking any side here, simply supposing and asking for clarification, and then asking another question. Does gmblpdam read into the fact he hasn't replied in the open forum yet, after digesting the responses of the OP, that he is in a casino's pocket? That's nuts.
And before you know it people will be responding to whacked out suppositions as if they're the facts of the matter and it all turns into a load of crap.

If OP is sincere in his understanding of events, and PaB, why would anyone think it wouldn't be sorted and settled according to the T&C?
I challenge anyone to find an issue that CasinoMeister hasn't handled, in the final analysis, as fairly as humanly possible and if you do, I'll tender my name in green.

[Cargal]

Casinomeister,
Why is it that you instantly jump on the back of the casinos? Especially a BS operation like Fortune Lounge. You are saying that he abused the bonus betting 200 a hand on 3CP? When he runs his balance all the way up to 8000 on a 100 bonus, how can he be abusing the bonus? He was clearly just doing some high stakes gambling, and that would seem like just the kind of person a casino would want playing at their operation. What isn't bonus abuse? Betting .25 a hand on keno until your balance is dwindled away? Or is that still a little abusey for you?

Quite honestly its a load of crap that a casino can do business in this manner and you are right behind them, backing them the whole way. If you aren't going to do anything about it, tell him that FL is a bunch of crooks and he shouldn't be playing there. But certainly don't blame him for abusing the bonus. Those rules in the T&C are a catch all, "we can do whatever we want" clause. It seems like 3/4 of the microgamings out there are rogue, and no one is doing anything about it. Not eCogra, and not you, the "watchdog" and "player advocate".

Brian, you did some great work in the past and I really think you were in it to help the players. But in the recent months it doesn't seem like you have done anything but take the side of the casino and sit back and collect your affiliate revenue. What changed?

In just the last 3 threads on this board regarding Casino Rewards, Breakaway and this post it is apparent that Bryan is stressed out or not feeling really like a player advocate. It at least looks like Bryan needs a hug. It must be incredibly frustrating when the people who pay you become more and more of a chore to make look good or even legitimate for that matter, while all of the players that use them are getting stolen from and taken advantage of. I know this is his board and that its rude to suggest but gmbpldam has more than a valid point. It appears to the common reader that Bryan does jump immdiately on the side of the casinos that he promotes and not to the side of the players.

Cases in point:

You got your deposit back - wtf? You are not out a cent of your own pocket.

Worthless reply? How much did you pay me to take the time out to chase these guys down to find out what happened? Zilch - nada.

I could have been playing ball with my kids instead of dealing with thankless players like you. See what happens if you PAB again.

I'm finally getting to this issue now.

Just goes to show - if you are going to play with a bonus, don't do unusual stupid shit.

If the player hasn't violated the Ts & Cs, then the player should be paid. But if there has been a transgression of the rules - tough titty.

You should have known better than to pull this crap off anyway. It's a stupid way of playing.

She pointed out the terms and conditions that are clearly posted on the casino's website that state the following:

So what are you complaining about? You broke the terms and conditions and you were aware of this. I wish players wouldn't waste my time with this stupid shit. I should ban your account for being such a crybaby.

He violated #13 - the casino states that they don't want this sort of bonus play. They have a right to withhold winnings. These guys should have read these terms. Obviously they didn't and thought they could pull a stunt like what happened at Fortune Lounge last Spring.

If you want to play like this, then DON'T use a bonus.

And please spare me the "I only play with bonuses" nonsense. Bonus play limits what you can and can't do in most cases.

One question - why did you fail to read their terms and conditions, and then come here complaining when your winnings were confiscated? You fully knew you were in the wrong, and I don't appreciate you and your non-reading T&C buddies wasting my time.

Don't forget that the Sci-fi group is a member of this forum, and he can probably walk and chew gum at the same time. No one needs a "blackbook" to figure out that Reynier is a problematic player. So in essence, Reynier has created his own very "public" blackbook.

Rules need to be clear-cut.

So now these casinos have included these terms, and it's still not good enough for you?

This is BONUS money and not your money. The casino has every right to dictate how this can be played out. If you don't like it, move on to something else.

And as far as I know, eCOGRA does not write the terms and conditions for casinos. I do know that if Ts and Cs are considered unfair or muddled, then eCOGRA will investigate.

Casinos have a right to protect their businesses, but they need to do this in a fair manner. To turn this thread into another <yawn> eCOGRA bash, gets us nowhere. If you really want to do something beneficial, quit sniveling about what you think is unfair, and contact eCOGRA in a businesslike manner. I'm sure they would be receptive to this.

And actually, I'm not siding with anyone - the casino stated that the player didn't respond to emails sent during the period that they allotted him, and the player says he never received the emails. It's one person's word against another. What am I supposed to do, invest x amount of hours to get to the bottom of this dark mystery??

The guy got his deposit back - I never claimed that this was because of what I did. I just mentioned this because he is not out of pocket. If they confiscated his deposit, that would have been a whole 'nother story.

Let me guess, you placed a single bet with your entire balance on VP, BJ, or slots.

These rules were there when you signed up, and by accepting the bonus you agreed to these rules. You should have not taken the bonus.

My guess is that you probably don't have more than one account, but you are sharing your computer (or identity) with other users. Do you share your computer with anyone else?

One last point:

Why is it bad to point out the obvious about ecogra and tex reese being worthless? Clearly they have shown that already. Many players were allowed to be stolen from based on playing style before it was a rule. Now the rules are totally subjective and a joke - apparently so is tex and ecogra since there is no player protection. Instead of saying what you may not be able to do they should spell out exactly what you CAN and be specific about it. Subjectivity in these cases is a joke. No terms are being broken.

[lojo]

Cargal, I just glanced those examples and almost all of them rang a bell... maybe I should scan them better before chiming in a gain... but don't you really think (edit: that if he's tired) what he is tired of is working his ass off for players and most of the work is turning out to be for bonus manipulators who are out to 'work the system' and them come crying to him when they get their peepees whacked? It's like he's their last part of the system to exploit if they can.

Not all of the examples are that, I agree. But enough of what we see here in complaints is, imo.

That's what I'm seeing, but I'm not speaking for him. That's just what I see.

[NASHVEGAS]

most of the work is turning out to be for bonus manipulators who are out to 'work the system' and them come crying to him when they get their peepees whacked? It's like he's their last part of the system to exploit if they can.

L J, do you put any blame at all on the platforms/casinos for putting the "system" (which is first and foremost a marketing tool for the casino I am refering to) in place such that FU clauses must exist. Is the casino manipulating the player or the player manipulating the casino????????