Cinema Casino Dont pay!

[phynqster]

In Costa Rica it is ilegal to gamble on line, but I believe the reason for that is that there are B&M casinos that are revenue generators in Costa Rica so they don't wont a competition for the gambling dollar. Or they just don't wont there citizens to get ripped off by a Costarican bussiness.

[winbig]

And the $64,000,000 questions for the VPL rep are:

a) Had this person not pursued a bonus and just simply lost on all of their deposit(s), would the casino be proactive and notify the user, letting them know that their account is in violation of the casino's T&C and then refund their deposit(s)?

or

b) If this user had won, would their winnings be void, or simply converted to USD instead of EURO?

[vinylweatherman]

And the $64,000,000 questions for the VPL rep are:

a) Had this person not pursued a bonus and just simply lost on all of their deposit(s), would the casino be proactive and notify the user, letting them know that their account is in violation of the casino's T&C and then refund their deposit(s)?

or

b) If this user had won, would their winnings be void, or simply converted to USD instead of EURO?

They would have acted on the first withdrawal, they would surely then have to sort out the fact they had violated this eCogra and FATF rule, and could have required the account to be converted to Dollars.
What is intersting is WHY are disallowed currencies offered in the first place, this is the LAST field on the fourth page of the registration form. Since the player is required to register the COUNTRY as part of the address, even without automated security checks on IP and details, the field "Australia" could have been fed into the programming behind the presentation of the last page, and only allowed the Dollar to be requested. Other MG casinos can do this, so why not this one, same software isn't it

Far better to have as foolproof a system as possible, rather than have a player walk into traps through ignorance of how the industry works.

This matter was certainly serious enough for the casino to throw out a loyal returning player who was still willing to deposit more in the belief that it would all work out OK in the end. This is as far away from "bonus abuser" as you can get. A bonus seeker would not have wagered a cent until the bonus was sorted, and would have withdrawn the deposit at the first sign of trouble.

In the end, it all worked out OK, the player simply got what is always given to a player who breaches the terms whether by design or ignorance, their deposit refunded & account locked. No lasting problem then.

[mycatscalledenr]

There is very likely to be a change of Government in the next couple of months so hopefully soon it will be legal to gamble online. I'm guessing these rules have never been enforced apart from the questionable acts of the person who started this thread.

MCCE.

[chuchu59]

This is just so messy. Ok, the player did not get a bonus YET but seemed to have taken advantage of the situation to put a halt to the payment to the casino. Susanbo said that the bank told her that the casino could face criminal charges if they tried to process the transaction. Then where is the accountability here? Surely the player should be responsible for initiating the transaction as well. Didnt the bank tell her that?

On the casino's side, I honestly cannot see why they could not credit the player with a bonus that was equivalent in USD terms to the deposit by the player. Sure, she played in Euros but the right thing would be giving her a bonus of say USD 500 for a deposit of 500 Euros. Just a simple conversion should do the trick although she could be getting quite a lot less now due to the strength of the Euro nowadays against the dollar.

[vinylweatherman]

This is just so messy. Ok, the player did not get a bonus YET but seemed to have taken advantage of the situation to put a halt to the payment to the casino. Susanbo said that the bank told her that the casino could face criminal charges if they tried to process the transaction. Then where is the accountability here? Surely the player should be responsible for initiating the transaction as well. Didnt the bank tell her that?

On the casino's side, I honestly cannot see why they could not credit the player with a bonus that was equivalent in USD terms to the deposit by the player. Sure, she played in Euros but the right thing would be giving her a bonus of say USD 500 for a deposit of 500 Euros. Just a simple conversion should do the trick although she could be getting quite a lot less now due to the strength of the Euro nowadays against the dollar.

I suspect the player was scared by what the bank said. Australia does not seem to be enforcing the law EXCEPT where there is damage to local outfits. They DID go for offshore sportsbooks offering odds on Australian horse racing.
This player was clearly NOT the standard "bonus abuser", and would probably have been loyal to the casino. When the casino seemed to "cheat" her out of something they freely advertised as available for all I expect she felt she had been conned. When the bank overreacted by mentioning criminal charges, I don't expect she made a fuss when the bank offered to recover the deposits. Maybe she didn't even have a choice, since in ignorance she made it clear to the bank what the debits were for, and it was the BANK that told her it was an illegal activity. I expect a US bank would do the same if a customer asked about charges that related to online gambling.

Naturally, this matter has pretty much put an end to online gambling for this player, as she is now considered "high risk", as her bank will most likely take similar action with any other charges related to online gambling.

Australia could well find there stance "inconvenient" with it's WTO compensation claim against the USA, while Australia are doing the exact same with THEIR domestic horse racing interests.
By claiming compensation through the WTO, Australia will be expected to play by the rules they are saying America are breaking. If America's big land casinos get into online gambling, they will certainly be marketing globally, and will pursue Australia if they find they are excluded from the Australian domestic market while Australia's own horse racing interests are allowed to operate.

I still want to see evidence that there really IS this FATF and eCogra requirement for Australians to use the US Dollar - so far it seems this is being selectively enforced against players that want to participate in promotions. International banking regulations do NOT differentiate between cases of deposit bonuses and "plain vanilla" casino gambling - I expect the casino made this rule up themselves, and are misusing eCogra and FATF to make it look like they were FORCED into this draconian action and did not make it though choice.
If this IS anything to do with eCogra, it will be in the eGAP document, and eCogra can be asked for an explanation. There is no international reason for this rule, as citizens in most countries are free to buy currencies other than their own, and use them in commerce - this is essentially what is happening when an Australian deposits in Euros (or US Dollars) from their Australian bank account.

[lojo]

If the casino did make up these FATF and eCogra 'policies' they need to come back and apologize/explain, or see the darkness of the pit, imo.

[susanjbo]

I refer to your email recieved by the Australian Communciations and Media AUthority (ACMA) on 25 September 2007 about online gambling.

ACMA’s role
ACMA administers a mechanism that allows people present in Australia to make written complaints about access to prohibited internet gambling content under the Interactive Gambling Act 2001 (IGA).

Prohibited internet gambling content is internet content that can be accessed, or is available for access, by customers of a prohibited internet gambling service. A prohibited internet gambling service is a gambling service provided, in the course of carrying on a business, to customers using an internet carriage service, and an individual physically present in Australia is capable of becoming a customer of the service.

Broadly speaking, the IGA relates to the provider of an online service and makes it an offence for a person residing in Australia to be able to place a bet on a game of chance. The IGA does not target the person accessing the site, however there may be other state based legislation that does and you may wish to check with the relevant state gaming board or authority for advice relating to other legislation.

The Interactive Gambling Act 2001 also makes it an offence to publish or broadcast in Australia an advertisement for a prohibited interactive gambling service under Part 7A. The prohibition extends to all forms of media, both electronic and non-electronic, including advertising via the Internet, broadcast services, print media, billboards and hoardings, subject to certain exceptions. ACMA does not have administrative responsibility for the receipt and investigation of complaints about possible breaches of the advertising prohibition. To report possible breaches of the advertising prohibition, or to enquire about online gambling policy, contact the Department of Communications, Information, Technology and the Arts. For contact details go to www.dcita.gov.au.

For more information about ACMA’s role go to http://www.acma.gov.au/ACMAINTER.131...D::pc=PC_90135.

For more information about online gambling policy go to http://www.dcita.gov.au/communicatio...nline_gambling.

Your questions regarding the liability of your financial institution processing transactions related to online gambling are issues best discussed with the Department of Communciations, Information Technology and the Arts (DCITA) whose contact details can be found at www.dcita.gov.au.

I hope this information has been of assistance to you.

Yours faithfully

K.Eulenstein
Content Assessment Section
Australian Communications and Media Authority.


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My question is to you,

1) Am i at all liable in any way for breaching the gaming act, ?
2) Is the bank warrented in allowing the processing of any transactions , even after they have been informed that it may constitute a breach of the gaming act.
3) Am i in my rights to dispute such activitys
4) And what roll does your organisation play regarding the enforcement of such legislation , If any
5) Who actually enforces this legislation as its become apparent no one has heard of it.
What rights have i regarding the use of this media and what responsibilities do banking institutions hold regarding the authorisation of such payments?
Below is a copy of the federal gaming act 2001


This article addresses the following issues:

1. Is it legal for an individual in Australia to participate in online gambling?
2. Are online gambling services prohibited in Australia at the Federal level?
3. Are online gambling services prohibited in Australia at the State
and Territory level?
4. Is the advertising of online gambling services allowed in Australia?
5. Is there a complaint system in place allowing the public to lodge a
complaint against the provision of online gambling services?

I. Is it legal for you to gamble online?

The short answer to Issue 1 is yes in most cases. The federal
legislation prohibiting online gambling in Australia targets the
suppliers of prohibited gambling services, not the customers of the
services.

However, you also need to consider any applicable state law. For
example, if you are in Queensland or the ACT you will be breaching the
law if you knowingly participate in unauthorised gaming (ie gaming
services that the supplier is not licensed to provide).

II. Are online gambling services prohibited in Australia at the federal level?

The Interactive Gambling Act 2001 (Cth) (“Federal Act”) targets the
providers (not the actual or potential customers) of interactive
gambling services: it is an offence to provide interactive gambling
services to a customer physically present in Australia, irrespective
of whether the customer is an Australian or not.(1)

The offence applies to both local and foreign interactive gambling
services providers. However from a practical perspective, only those
foreign interactive gambling providers that have a connection to
Australia are likely to be prosecuted.

The maximum penalty for the offence is $220,000 per day for an
individual (2) and $1.1 million per day for a body corporate. (3)

What are "interactive gambling services"?

"Interactive gambling services" are defined by the Federal Act as
"gambling services" provided, in the course of carrying on a business,
using:

* an internet carriage service;
* any other carriage service which has at least one point in Australia; (4)
* a broadcasting service;
* another content service; or
* a datacasting service. (5)

In turn, "gambling services" are broadly defined as:

* A service for making bets or introducing individuals to other
individuals who wish to make bets; or
* A service for the conduct of a lottery or for the supply of lottery tickets; or
* A service for the conduct of a gamewhich is played for anything of
value and which involves an element of chance (games “predominantly of
skill”, such as computer games, fall outside the definition of
gambling services and are not prohibited (6)); or
* any gambling service (within the ordinary meaning of that
expression) that does not fall into any of the above categories. (7)

However, express exemptions exist for: (8)

* A telephone betting service.

* A service for online wagering - for example, on a horse race, a
harness race, a greyhound race, on an event or a series of events or
(provided bets are accepted only before commencement) on a sporting
event.

* A public gaming service (that is, specific gaming services provided
in licensed pubs, clubs or casinos including linked poker machines in
clubs). (9)

* A gambling service associated with a particular broadcasting or
datacasting program, or where its sole purpose is to promote goods or
services that are advertised on a broadcast service. (10) Examples are
interactive TV game shows and promotions with entry fees in the form
of a 1900 telephone number.

* Online lotteries and online sale of lottery tickets (but not online
scratch or instant lotteries). (11)

* Contracts that are financial products within the meaning of Chapter
7 of the Corporations Act 2001 (Cth) . This includes contracts for
options, futures and agreements entered into on a futures market or a
futures exchange.

* Exempt services as determined by the Minister. (12)

Australian customers

The interactive gambling service provider would not have committed an
offence under the Federal Act if it did not know and could not, with
reasonable diligence, have ascertained that its service had Australian
customers. (13)

For more details on what is prohibited under the Federal Act, see the
Online Gambling Facts Sheet .

The various state and territory regimes are discussed in the last
section of this article.

III. Is there a formal process under which I can make a complaint
about online gambling services?

The answer to this question is yes. You can make a complaint to the
Australian Broadcasting Authority (ABA) under the Federal Act where
there is reason for you to believe that end-users of an internet
service carriage service can access prohibited interactive gambling
content in Australia. (14) You can do this through the ABA’s online
complaints form.

The complaint must:

* identify the internet content;
* set out how to access the internet content, for example a URL or a password;
* identity the country where the content is hosted, if it is known;
* set out your reasons for believing the internet content is
prohibited internet gambling content; and
* set out any other information the ABA requires.

You can also make a complaint about an ISP that breaches the Code. The
ABA may issue the ISP with a direction to comply with the Code. (15)
If the breach continues, the ABA may direct the ISP to implement
procedures designed to ensure that future breaches do not occur. (16)

If your complaint is made in good faith, you will receive immunity
from any civil action arising against you as a result of the
complaint. (17)

Investigation of complaints by the ABA

After the ABA receives a bona fide complaint, it will take the
following courses of action:

Internet content hosted in Australia

If the internet content is hosted in Australia and the ABA considers
that the complaint should be referred to an Australian police force,
it must do so and advise the complainant of this in writing. (18)

Internet content hosted outside Australia

If the internet content is hosted outside Australia, and the ABA
believes that the content needs to be referred to either a domestic or
a foreign law enforcement agency, it must contact a member of an
Australian police force. (19)

The ABA must also notify the ISP industry of the prohibited gambling
internet content in accordance with the designated notification scheme
specified in the Interactive Gambling Industry Code 2001 .

Interactive Gambling Industry Code 2001 (“Code”)

The Code was developed by the Internet Industry Association and was
registered by the ABA on 13 December 2001. Essentially the Code sets
out the designated notification scheme under which the ABA is to
notify the industry of prohibited gambling content, and the procedures
the industry should follow in dealing with the relevant content. More
specifically:

* the ABA is to directly notify (by email or otherwise) the Suppliers
of Scheduled Filters (being those filters listed in Schedule 1 of the
Code) of the prohibited internet gambling content and is to regularly
email ISPs notifying them of the content;

* upon receiving notification from the ABA, the suppliers are to
up-date the filters so as to block access to the relevant content. In
turn, the ISPs are, as soon as reasonably practicable and at a charge
determined by the ISP, to offer their subscribers an up-to-date filter
that prevents access to the relevant content. The filters can be
provided through online registration or a notification, with links to
effect download activation and instructions for use. There is no
obligation on people to buy or use these filters. In addition, if the
internet subscriber already has an effective means of preventing
access to the prohibited sites, the ISPs do not have to offer a
filter.

Compliance with the Code is voluntary unless the ABA directs an ISP to
comply with the Code. (20) Non-compliance with a direction results in
a maximum penalty of $5,500 for individuals and $27,500 for
corporations, with an additional 10% for every day the offence
continues. (21)

The ABA may also apply to the Federal Court for an order that the ISP
cease supplying the relevant internet carriage service. (22)

IV. Is the advertising of interactive gambling services allowed in Australia?

The answer to this question is no. The Federal Act prohibits the
broadcasting, datacasting and publishing of advertisements for
interactive gambling services in Australia. (23) An example of
publishing an advertisement in Australia would be to place it on a
website which is aimed at Australian end-users. (24)

For more details on the advertising offences and the defences to them,
see the Online Gambling Facts Sheet .

V. Are online gambling services prohibited in Australia at the State
and Territory level?

The Federal Act expressly allows for the concurrent operation of state
and territory legislation to the extent that it does not conflict with
the federal legislation. (25) Both the Federal Act and the relevant
state or territory legislation need to be examined for the applicable
laws on an issue. It is important to be aware that:

* If a service/activity is exempted under the Federal Act, it may not
necessarily be exempt under a state or territory law; and

* A service/activity may be prohibited under the Federal Act even if
it is licensed or authorised under a state or territory law.

In light of the Federal Act, state or territory specific internet
gaming legislation continues to be of significance but primarily only
in so far as it regulates the licensing of Australian-based
interactive gaming providers in the provision of interactive gambling
services of-shore. In addition, certain state acts create an offence
of participating in online gambling.

Please be aware that the following discussion on State or Territory
legislation is subject to the above legislative limitations and
uncertainties.

Specific online gambling legislation in the ACT, Queensland and Victoria

Prohibition on unauthorised interactive gambling

Generally, you must not participate in, encourage or facilitate
another to participate in an interactive game if you know that the
game is not an authorised game. (26)

What interactive games are regulated?

An interactive game in which:

* Potential exists for winning a prize consisting of money or value
through the rules of the game;

* Players participate by means of a “telecommunications device” and
make a payment to participate in the game; and

* A winner of a prize may be decided by chance or skill;

are regulated under legislation of these states.

Interactive games which are not regulated Generally, the legislation
does not apply to racing and betting games authorised under other
Queensland, Victorian or ACT gaming legislation.

Authority to conduct a particular interactive game

The Minister may give an authorisation to a licensed Service Provider
(SP) to conduct a particular interactive game. SPs must comply with a
number of legislative requirements (eg withholding gaming services
from minors and nominated problem gamblers). These requirements are
discussed in more detail in the Online Gambling Fact Sheet.

Northern Territory and Tasmania

In both states, existing gaming legislation has been amended to
regulate internet gaming. However, the legislation does not create an
offence of participating in unauthorised gaming.

New South Wales, South Australia and Western Australia

New South Wales, South Australia and Western Australia have not
enacted specific legislation on internet gambling. The existing
legislative regimes in these States contain prohibitions which apply
in general terms to prohibit operators from providing or promoting
interactive gambling services to residents in those States.

Despite the lack of specific legislation, certain operators in those
States have been granted licences to carry on interactive sports
betting and wagering services on the internet. (27)

Other relevant Articles on this site: Terms and conditions of website
Overseas transactions
Tax

Other relevant Fact Sheets on this site:
Jurisdiction
Online Gambling
Taxation
End Notes: =1. Interactive Gambling Act 2001, s 15.
2. This is aimed at directors and chief executives of companies,
Interactive Gambling Act 2001 (Cth), s 15.
3. Under subsection 4B(3) of the Crimes Act 1914 (Cth) if a body
corporate is convicted of an offence against a Commonwealth law, the
Court may impose a penalty of up to 5 times the amount of the maximum
penalty that could be imposed on a natural person.
4. Telecommunications Act, s 16.
5. Interactive Gambling Act 2001, s 5.
6. Interactive Gambling Bill 2001 Revised Explanatory Memorandum, page 14.
7. Interactive Gambling Act 2001, s 4.
8. Interactive Gambling Act 2001, s 5(3).
9. Interactive Gambling Act 2001, s 8B. Specific gaming services are
those for the conduct of a game, where:
* the game is played for money or anything else of value; and
* the game is a game of chance or of mixed chance and skill; and
* a customer of the service gives or agrees to give consideration to
play or enter the game. (sub section 5(e))
10. Interactive Gambling Act 2001, s 8C.
11. Interactive Gambling Act 2001, s 8D.
12. Interactive Gambling Act, s 10.
13. Interactive Gambling Act, s 15(3).
14. Interactive Gambling Act 2001, s 16. The complainant must be an
Australian resident or a company carrying on activities in Australia:
Interactive Gambling Act 2001, s 19.
15. Interactive Gambling Act 2001, s 42.
16. Interactive Gambling Act 2001, s 56.
17. Interactive Gambling Act 2001, s 23.
18. Interactive Gambling Act 2001, s 20.
19. Interactive Gambling Act 2001, s 24.
20. Interactive Gambling Industry Code, para 4.
21. Interactive Gambling Act 2001, ss 55 and 57.
22. Interactive Gambling Act 2001, s 59.
23. Interactive Gambling Act 2001, ss 61DA and 61EA.
24. Interactive Gambling Act 2001, s 61EA(3).
25. Interactive Gambling Act 2001, s 69.
26 Interactive Gambling (Player Protection) Act 1998 (Qld) s 16;
Interactive Gambling (Player Protection) Act 1999 (Vic), s 9;
Interactive Gambling Act 1998 (ACT) .
27. Unlawful Gambling Act 1998 (NSW) ; Lottery and Gaming Act 1936
(SA); Gaming and Betting (Contracts and Securities) Act 1985 (WA)

[vinylweatherman]

The casino is in breach if they could "reasonably know" they were allowing Australians to participate. If you selected "Australia" when asked for place of residence, this satisfies the requirement (the fact that the casino did not USE the information does not let it off the hook).

Since participation was illegal from the point of registration, ALL bets would be illegal, whether won or lost. Casinos could use this to void winnings of Australian players just as easily as Australian players can effect a chargeback through their banks.
If the casino has "special rules" for Australians, they have shown that they both knew, AND ACTED on the information that the end user was Austalian, and they would find it very hard to defend any legal action.

None of this matters to the casino if they are offshore, as to have any effect there must be a part of the casino, or a member of management, available within Australian Juristiction. This is how the US has handled it's own prohibition, targeting execs who wander onto US soil, as well as strangling the flow of funds.

I doubt anything will come of a complaint, especially with the potential for a change of government. Casinos will continue to accept Australian players until they judge the risks to their operation are too high, as has now happened with the US market.

With reference to the original complaint, it seems the casino is wanting to dictate HOW Australian players may "help the casino break the law", by telling them which foreign currency they must use to make their illegal gambling transactions.