Casino Rewards down the drain like Fortune Lounge?

[dancinggoon]

Great post!!!! :

It shows the fu***** double moral of these operations, you are damm right, that these rogues will hammer on any player that trys to minimize the risk of loosing his bankroll, before he is going to withdrawl his winnings.

Stop playing and withdrawing winnings is an import part of responsible gaming, or iam missing something here?

But even if the player does the opposite and plays very risky with his funds, he has only a small chance to win. If he does, they just stealing the winnings.

[lojo]

Twelve and thirteen together equal a strategy of manipulation that is clearly not acceptable to the CR group.

Do we know of any incidences where, without using a bonus, these terms were invoked? Not likely because the methods, when used together, are not EBM.

Granted, 13 should not be able to be used against a player if not in conjunction with another 'strategy', because it is incumbant upon the casino to set the wagering requirements and invocation of an FU clause like that, by itself, would be unfair BUT it is a term the player agrees to.

That said, I would agree with you that the existence or invocation of thirteen alone, without a bonus(and I understand it isn't delineated in the eCogra policy) would place the casino in a position of breaching the responsible gaming terms of their agreement with eCogra.

So, where do we go from here? Add another fifteen layers of legalese to the T&C? The casinos will continue to modify the bonus terms as long as bonuses exist. Isn't it better to simply know the HE and be a gambler and leave boni alone? I think so, but that's just me. It's called gambling, not 'strategy of manipulation to come out ahead'.

[cyprean]

Twelve and thirteen together equal a strategy of manipulation that is clearly not acceptable to the CR group.

Do we know of any incidences where, without using a bonus, these terms were invoked? Not likely because the methods, when used together, are not EBM.

Granted, 13 should not be able to be used against a player if not in conjunction with another 'strategy', because it is incumbant upon the casino to set the wagering requirements and invocation of an FU clause like that, by itself, would be unfair BUT it is a term the player agrees to.

That said, I would agree with you that the existence or invocation of thirteen alone, without a bonus(and I understand it isn't delineated in the eCogra policy) would place the casino in a position of breaching the responsible gaming terms of their agreement with eCogra.

So, where do we go from here? Add another fifteen layers of legalese to the T&C? The casinos will continue to modify the bonus terms as long as bonuses exist. Isn't it better to simply know the HE and be a gambler and leave boni alone? I think so, but that's just me. It's called gambling, not 'strategy of manipulation to come out ahead'.

You must understand that the terms are so vague that CR group may interpret as they wish, thus resulting in a FU clause.


It's pretty funny to see that CR breaks eCogra's responsible gambling theorem. Thus we see can yet again what little value eCogra poses. Some could call it a PR operation founded by the casinos that rubber stamps some casino actions and FU clauses that a non-dependant instititution would not do. Not to bash eCogra and say that they totally out of line, I must admit they have done a lot of good too.

[Stanford]

Great post!!!! :

Stop playing and withdrawing winnings is an import part of responsible gaming, or iam missing something here?

But even if the player does the opposite and plays very risky with his funds, he has only a small chance to win. If he does, they just stealing the winnings.

Yep. You are missing something. This Casino reneged on a bet.

Here are the terms in question:

"12. Observations of playing patterns such as the playing of equal, zero margin or hedge betting may not be considered as playing in the appropriate spirit for the purposes of meeting bonus wagering requirements. Should the Casino deem that these practices have been utilized for the specific purpose of meeting wagering requirements, the casino reserves the right to withhold any cashins and/or confiscate all winnings.

13. Other practices of playing behaviour which may lead to the casino withholding cashins and/or confiscating all winnings include, but are not limited to, placing single bets whereby the wager consists of the majority of the total available balance and the bonus balance contributing to a significant portion of that balance. Should the casino deem that practices such as this have been utilized, the casino reserves the right to withhold any cashins and/or confiscate all winnings. "

As to number 12, where can I play zero margin? I would like to see that game. And equel betting? What does that mean. I bet 2 units 25 times. I am down. I bet 4 units 25 times. Is that equal betting?

As to 13, I start out with a $25 bonus and a 150 balance. I get down to $35 and hail mary. I win and hail mary again. Did I break the terms of 13.

These terms are so unfair as to not be enforceable. They are the old bonus abuse term renamed.

So what do we get down to? The player made a bet. The casino accepted a bet. Pay up.

What's going on is these guys are starved for players so they are advertising bonues to draw in players. They accept the losing action. Then they look for ways not to pay the winning action.

And eCOGRA backs them up. This is worse then when they used to scream that autoplay was bonus abuse. Now flat betting is bonus abuse.

I support attempts to overturn America's restriction on poker rooms. But I am not going to waste my breath on casinos when the standard setting body of eCOGRA promotes this type of deceptive play.

This is a rogue group.

imho,
Stanford

[chuchu59]

Hi Stanford,

Long time between posts. On 12, there are only a handful of games that could count as hedging ie red/black or odds/even and sector betting on roulette, player and banker on baccarat and bets on sic bo. The casino could make an exhaustive list so that confusion does not arise. As for zero margin, I recall a game called fantan where the dealer stores away an unspecified amount of white chessspieces(cant remember the term) and the player can bet on any number from 1-4 paying 4-1 for any number. The dealer then reveals the chesspieces and spreads them out in units of 4. The remainder is the winning number. There wasnt any commission involved when I played so I am not sure what house edge they had.

13 is ridiculous and no elaboration is needed as you have already set out the arguments against it clearly.

[pangloss]

The current MG (eCOGRA) casinos marketing regime (to new players) includes standard fare such as:

1. False and outrageous promises of “free money” or “bonus money” splashed loudly across Casino home pages.
2. T+Cs, contained in the finest of fine print, revealing onerous WRs and restricted game play that render so-called “free money” and/or “bonus money” virtually worthless.
3. The newly introduced T+C#13 (aka “irregular play”) with its sole purpose of preventing optimum Player spending patterns in favor of careless and reckless wagers coveted by the offending Casino. Such optimum Player spending is ironically deemed “irregular”, consciously shifting the integrity of otherwise perfectly legitimate and sensible behavior, away from the Player. Consequently, the mandated Penalty (confiscation of winnings) of “irregular play” transforms the Player into “an offender” of T+Cs for the heinous crime of merely playing his cards right.

It is on this bedrock of probity and practice that eCOGRA’s Responsible Gaming policy rhetoric proudly sits.

The Responsible Gaming mantra is repeated and monotonously displayed on every member Casinos home page in the hope that it will be accepted as an integral part of eCOGRAs ethical practice and wisdom.

Accordingly eCOGRA is now put on notice.

Within the next 2 months eCOGRAs commitment to Responsible Gaming will be tested with respect to the operation of T+C #13 and all its “irregular play” manifestations. The result will be published in full so that no one will be left in any doubt as to just what eCOGRAs Responsible Gaming effectively means to the on-line Player community at large. I feel sure both eCOGRA and member Casinos will welcome this opportunity.


…

[lojo]

Leave it Stanford to cut right through the bullshine

When you put it that way... "bet was placed, bet was accepted, player won, pay up" it goes right to the heart of the matter.

Bonuses are the scourge of online gambling and I will have to concede that until the SW simply refuses bets or accepts bets the T&C are nothing more than mumbo-jumbo. My only defense is to not use a bonus, and if I do, I am risking my funds foolishly.

[sdaddy]

As to 13, I start out with a $25 bonus and a 150 balance. I get down to $35 and hail mary. I win and hail mary again. Did I break the terms of 13.

These terms are so unfair as to not be enforceable. They are the old bonus abuse term renamed.

You've made me re-think my position, and now I agree that rule 13 is unfair and unworkable as well.

I must confess that at first I didn't read the rule closely enough and didn't appreciate that it prohibits betting majority of the current player's balance and not the original balance. That makes all the difference in the world as far as fairness is concerned. That is, the player could have assiduously avoided making large bets since receiving a bonus, but then find himself left with a balance so small that it is almost unavoidable to make a bet less than a "majority" of his balance.

Great post.

[Casinomeister]

12.Observations of playing patterns such as the playing of equal, zero margin or hedge betting may not be considered as playing in the appropriate spirit for the purposes of meeting bonus wagering requirements. Should the Casino deem that these practices have been utilized for the specific purpose of meeting wagering requirements, the casino reserves the right to withhold any cashins and/or confiscate all winnings.

13.Other practices of playing behaviour which may lead to the casino withholding cashins and/or confiscating all winnings include, but are not limited to, placing single bets whereby the wager consists of the majority of the total available balance and the bonus balance contributing to a significant portion of that balance. Should the casino deem that practices such as this have been utilized, the casino reserves the right to withhold any cashins and/or confiscate all winnings.

Whether you like these terms or not, they are there - and there is not much that you can do about it except to avoid these casinos if you are planing to play this way.

Most of you are aware that a few months ago, several MG casino groups were hit by a massive fraud ring that played the exact same way - making a deposit, taking the bonus, and placing it all on one bet, and if the player won, they would grind the wagering requirements away with roulette, etc. The casinos locked all accounts that exhibited this sort of action mainly because they did not like the way the players played. (not to mention about +60% of these accounts were fraudsters).

The main outcry was that there was nothing in the terms and conditions that prohibited this sort of play - the players should be paid. The Fortune Lounge group was rouged mainly because of this subjectivity. Rules need to be clear-cut.

So now these casinos have included these terms, and it's still not good enough for you?

This is BONUS money and not your money. The casino has every right to dictate how this can be played out. If you don't like it, move on to something else.

And as far as I know, eCOGRA does not write the terms and conditions for casinos. I do know that if Ts and Cs are considered unfair or muddled, then eCOGRA will investigate.

Casinos have a right to protect their businesses, but they need to do this in a fair manner. To turn this thread into another <yawn> eCOGRA bash, gets us nowhere. If you really want to do something beneficial, quit sniveling about what you think is unfair, and contact eCOGRA in a businesslike manner. I'm sure they would be receptive to this.

[NASHVEGAS]

eCogra is what it is,nothing more,nothing less!!!!!!!!!!