Prime Casino remove my money from Neteller!

[pingpong]

Some time ago, Geisha Lounge Casino deposited a withdrawal of several hundres dollars twice to my netelleraccount. They didnt discover the mistake themselves, but honest as I am, I told them (a week later or so) that I had gotten my withdrawal x2. But instead of taking the money back directly from neteller, they asked me if I could deposit the money into my casinoaccount, so that they then could take the money. Guess they didnt had to do that if its that easy to go into a players netelleraccount and "reverse" a deposit. (There was enough funds in my netelleraccount the whole time.)

[GrandMaster]

I have spoken with the head fof our support team and he explained it to me like this: We are able to reverse any deposit we make to a Neteller account if the funds still exist. We don't need to provide documentation of any kind and this is simply known as a "reverse chargeback".

I understand that this may make many of you uncomfortable but it is a Neteller reality and I highly doubt we are the first people to do it. Having said that, I've issued a policy that this is never to happen again without coming across my desk first.

How about simply never doing it again?

How would you feel if a player charged back his credit card deposit at Prime Casino?

Another question: why is there a reference to ecogra at the end of the T&C, you are not ecogra approved?

[Vesuvio]

I have spoken with the head of our support team and he explained it to me like this: We are able to reverse any deposit we make to a Neteller account if the funds still exist. We don't need to provide documentation of any kind and this is simply known as a "reverse chargeback".

Thanks for the info. This is the first time I've heard of a casino using chargeback for anything other than accidental multiple payment (so I do think your support have seriously abused the option), but this is fundamentally an issue with Neteller. Most people I know have drastically reduced the funds they keep there due to fears the company might collapse at the whim of the American prosecutors, so Neteller can't afford to keep on ignoring the wishes of the customers they have left.

[TravelMaxx]

If I hadn't noticed, I clearly wouldn't be here addressing the issues. You seem to be unsatisfied the way I'm handling things. Why is that exactly? What's your angle in this? The players are both happy but you continue to pour fuel into the fire.

Like I have over the last two days, make yourself familiar with how Neteller works with a Vendor account before making sweeping criminal allegations about how we do business. Some of you have very valid points but you for example are clearly picking fights for no good reason. Who are you fighting for right now exactly? The players have both said they are happy with the resolution. Why aren't you?

I have spoken with the head fof our support team and he explained it to me like this: We are able to reverse any deposit we make to a Neteller account if the funds still exist. We don't need to provide documentation of any kind and this is simply known as a "reverse chargeback".

I understand that this may make many of you uncomfortable but it is a Neteller reality and I highly doubt we are the first people to do it. Having said that, I've issued a policy that this is never to happen again without coming across my desk first. I'll also say that this entire incident occurred as a result of us changing the T&C's. From now on, I'll put a notice on the Casino index page of changes and a date. From that point, there should be no more excuses for not reading them.

I know you'd like to believe that there is a secret conspiracy going on where my Casino is defrauding players by the millions by lying to Neteller but that's simply not the case. You're welcome to call Neteller and ask them what kind of documentation is required because there is none required.

Any Casino or in fact, any vendor using Neteller can reverse a charge so long as the funds still exist in the account. In the future, please relax your tone a bit. I'm doing my best to sort this out. Since you're keen on giving me orders, how about you take some yourself. Go contact Neteller and ask them what kind of documenation or proof a vendor needs in order to issue a chargeback. When you find out there isn't any, perhaps you can come back and apologize labeling us as liars and criminals.

Thanks,

Josh.

What you say is actually that you used a bad business practice because you had the opportunity to do so.

I think most of the people in this thread are of the opinion that these chargebacks never should take place - the only exception i could imagine is a double payment.

[TravelMaxx]

Jens is also not claiming that she assumed the terms were the old one, only that she assumed that we were on the same ClearPlay policy as other MGS Casinos. I really don't feel I should be held responsible for what people assume.

What do you think?

Josh.

No.

I didn´t realize that the terms changed. In fact i still don´t know what were the changes made. You told me, that you made some and i accepted that.

And yes, my interpretation of your terms were that i could withdraw my cash balance at any point and as i said - your terms still are everything but clear, you obviously realized that yourself:

It's obvious this won't be the last time they are changed since there are obviously some serious issues with them that need to be resolved.

What makes me angry is that you realize that there are some serious issues with them but only see my fault and not your own.

You have the opportunity to recredit not only my deposit but also my winnings and the bonus to my account and give me a chance to satisfy your requirements. To void my winning is strongest possible intervention especially because it were your terms and your cashier that were (and are) unclear and caused this situation.

[hunterduke]

ypu stated as follows

Any Casino or in fact, any vendor using Neteller can reverse a charge so long as the funds still exist in the account.

so if the funds are not there you just forget about it? or do you lie in wait and confiscate deposits?

its pretty scarey that this can happen to players if you can get into peoples ewallets can you also get your hands into our private bank accounts?

i know the goverment can confiscate funds from us but i never thought that the law of the land stated that casinos had that much power as well.

the fact that its so easy for you to do this ...no paperwork..no proof required by neteller is scary enough, the fact you actually did it is even scarier.

[indievertigo]

Vinylweatherman,

Listen, I really appreciate your argument here but it is very difficult to inform players that haven't even registered as fun players, that our T&C's have changed. However, I see the problem and have figured out a way we can deal with this problem. On the index page, the next time I change the terms, I will write some text near the copywrite information that says something like: Our T&C's have changed recently. Please click here to read them.

Players that haven't registered surely don't need to be informed?
An email to all registered players would be much better outcome, or a pop up when the MG/flash casino opens saying that the ts and cs have changed, click here to read them. That way no one can miss the fact. Once registered and depositing at a casino, I for one rarely check the casino home page and im sure many others don't as well.

I understand that this may make many of you uncomfortable but it is a Neteller reality and I highly doubt we are the first people to do it. Having said that, I've issued a policy that this is never to happen again without coming across my desk first.

Your not the first to do it, as said by others it's been done in the case of multiple payments. It should never happen again full stop. If a player were to chargeback, you'd have him on every blacklist you knew about, and ban him from the casino instantly.

I have spoken with the head fof our support team and he explained it to me like this: We are able to reverse any deposit we make to a Neteller account if the funds still exist. We don't need to provide documentation of any kind and this is simply known as a "reverse chargeback".

Are you claiming that on request, with no reason provided, Neteller will charegback for you?

[Da_Gambla]

Too much to quote, so I won't attempt, and instead just improvise against what has been said since my last post.

First off, Josh, you are moving in the right direction, or at least you were. As of your last volley of responses however, you are standing still.

I have issue with "I have informed support to never do this unless it comes across my desk first."

Umm.. no. That's unacceptable. No one should be allowed to play 'God' or 'Higher Power' with a player's personal financial account not directly under your supervision. I know you "can", per NT's agreement to assist vendors, but you should never do it as you did here. No one is going to complain if you need to recover funds that were applied twice. That's so legitimate, it sparkles in the daylight. However, in this case, a security audit after the fact was the basis for this chargeback, and that's theft of funds on your company's part. Criminally liable? Probably not. Civilly liable? We're getting warm here... would need an attorney to sort that through. Morally liable? BINGO. And that's where it's going to cost you... the trust department.

Players in this environment are just now acclimating to having to gamble twice. Once on a game of choice, and then another gamble as to whether they will get paid. The precedent you are setting here adds a third layer. Once they have gambled on the game, then gambled on getting paid and actually got the payment, now that player has to gamble on whether you (the casino) will come back and seize the money back due to some sort of security audit after the fact.

This IS the issue. I understand the two players in this original debacle are supposedly "happy" with your offer, but be serious here... you coerced them into thinking this was their only option. I'm not playing games with words with you, sir. This is fact.

Definition for COERCE:
1. to compel by force, intimidation, or authority, esp. without regard for individual desire or volition.

You are the authority here. You stole their money and now control it, so you are the authority figure. They did not individually DESIRE or VOLUNTEER to do it this way.

2. to bring about through the use of force or other forms of compulsion; exact: to coerce obedience.

Ringing a bell?

3. to dominate or control, esp. by exploiting fear, anxiety, etc.: The state is based on successfully coercing the individual.

Ah yes... using fear and anxiety to control another. They feared those funds were gone forever. Once you decided to join this discussion, you had to "Sleep on it" over night, which of course brought much anxiety to the table for them.

Yes, Josh, I'm rather convinced these two players are as happy as pigs in shite over this.

You know Josh, and I probably don't have to remind you of this, but, gamblers are a funny lot. Suspicious, slightly paranoid. It comes with the territory (please review the English Harbour thread for a full understanding on how a breach of trust can erupt into a huge feeding frenzy). Now, I mean, you've just got to appreciate the humor in this... how many gamblers are going to get a nice warm and fuzzy feeling when you say "not unless it comes across my desk first"?

So then are you here to tell us that if these two bloke's case had appeared before you for approval of a chargeback, you would have told support "No, don't do it"? Or would you have approved it, leaving us to have this same exact discussion about raiding a player's private and personal account outside of your casino?

I appreciate your sincere attempt to lay the blame on NT, but YOUR COMPANY pulled the trigger. Yes... by all means, everyone with a Neteller account should complain to Neteller... LOUDLY... but you and your company are losing some serious trust with the gaming public. If you are one of us, do you deposit with Prime and risk having your money snatched after you have been paid, or are you more likely to deposit with XXLClub who have revised their T&C's guaranteeing that your withdrawl is final? That's your first clue Josh... the competition is already poised to handle this in the proper manner and make the customer feel that there is trust on both sides.

It is rather hard to have this discussion without offending you, but who the hell exactly do you think you are with this "not unless it comes across my desk"??

What happens when you are on vacation for two weeks? Does your all mighty wisdom get transferred to a "trusted" CS rep in your absense? Not acceptable.

What if the information provided to you by security or CS isn't accurate to begin with? Every green light you give would be done so by whatever evidence hits your desk. Are we so damn gullible that we are going to believe your information is always 100% spot on? Well for crissakes sir! This whole thread debacle proves that scenario otherwise! Pfft!

Help me out here Josh... surely you can come up with one or two other ways this is completely flawed?? Or are you really that confident in your perfection? I think no one is that perfect, and I don't think any one person should be in charge of pulling the trigger on stealing back money that was funded in good faith. Our issue as players is with Neteller AND YOU, not just the former. Your issue is with your security and CS team. You should ban your employees, as well as yourself, from EVER doing this again if you want the trust re-established.

Here's the bottomline. If I go buy a new television, and let's say the cashier doesn't charge me the full price, or forgets to add tax. I take my purchase home and set it aside to setup another day. Does this store have the right to come to my home and try to reposses the TV? No, they do not. Do they have the right to alter my check for the real amount? No, that's forgery. Do they have the right to upgrade the charge on my credit card? No, the new charge does not match my receipt, so that's fraud. What are they left with? A civil small claims suit, and that's IT. And trust me, that cashier either got a thorough arse-chewin' or was sent looking for another job.

You side-stepped that process Josh. After funding their NT accounts, your only real choice was to negotiate it directly with them or file a small claim and get a judge to rule in your favor. Instead, you just got down and dirty and snatched that money back when they weren't looking. That's what you did, and it was WRONG, period.

- Keith

[vinylweatherman]

The admission by Prime Casino that they can take anything they pay into our Neteller accounts back without any need to give a reason makes this even more shocking than at first. The reason why Prime have been taken to task for this is that taking the funds back like that was unbelievable itself, but the suggestion that no justification was needed by Neteller was just so fanciful that it was more realistic to assume that the casino had misrepresented their case for recovery from Neteller.

Surely, in the interests of fairness, players should be able to reverse any of their Neteller deposits to a merchant provided the "funds are still there", and not have to give any reason - perhaps they can, has anyone tried?
Since they are UK/IOM registered, they have to obey consumer contract laws, and this would be an unfair contract if it gave such sweeping reversal rights to only one side, and not the other.
Even for a credit card chargeback, we have to give some kind of justification (however, the rules require the merchant to prove their innocence, not the player to prove guilt - bit ironic really ), and the merchant will have a chance to at least argue the point.

It is a problem with Neteller just as much as with casinos, as it leaves a door wide open for rogue casinos to plunder out Neteller accounts without reason if they have made payments to it.
Players who now feel uneasy about having funds sitting in Neteller are now going to be positively paranoid.
What is to stop a casino going under from pulling such a stunt with it's dying breath hoping to buy time, then folding by the time players can dispute anything, with the money vanishing with the company.

While the casino in this case quotes clear player breaches of terms, this is not legal. In order for this to stand up, the terms themselves have to be clear, in this case there are contradictory terms in different places. In this event, courts usually strike out both contradictory terms and leave the rest of the contract intact. They will also check that the terms are fair to both parties in equal measure. The abuse terms are not, they are too vague to have any real meaning. Courts will look at the "abusive play" itself, and compare this with the rules of the casino game in question, and whether the player played within the rules or cheated. Cheating at an online casino game is impossible, as the software enforces the game rules, but in a land casino, cheating is possible, such as sneaking a winning bet on after the croupier has declared "no more bets" and the result pretty much certain (roulette, for example).

The suggestion by Prime about changes to terms is a good one, but the announcement should be prominent, and more specific. It should be on part of the webpage that no player should miss, such as the download page, or a bonus claim page. It should include the date on which the terms changed, so players who know they last read them before that date will know to read them again.

The other point about reading the terms and depositing a couple of days later being unexpected, well, get real, MG casinos are ONE GIGABYTE, even on my fast Broadband it can take 5 hours to fully install the casino, thats one day gone already. Then there is registration, it ofter takes a while for the welcome E-mail. Players should wait for this, as this is where any important updates SHOULD be given to players. Once this is done, players may have problems depositing for a while, for example, Neteller keeps going down for "scheduled maintenance", without prior warning, and players may have to wait yet another day. Because this is made such an ordeal, they don't think that in those couple of days a REPUTABLE casino will slip in a new & nasty term, they will, of course, have reviewed the terms BEFORE going to the trouble of downloading and registering, and if their eventual deposit is a few days later they should not have to worry about changes for the worse.
Players who play for fun, and then register for real are caught out by the aggressive marketing found in "fun" mode. It allows registration for real without reference back to the website where any new terms or announcements will be found. As far as the player is concerned, they have already registered, and they are just converting their type of play. Most players are NOT lawyers, and do NOT nitpick like casinos tend to do nowdays, so will not be inclined to go through the terms again and again, and bombard CS with questions about minor points of rule or grammar. Perhaps in the present climate they should be doing this, and this will cripple CS and service will suffer. CS often can't answer such questions as they don't even understand what the question is about. This is not fantasy, this happens on a regular basis in relation to promotions. Again and again I have had unanswered E-mails, and when I finally get annoyed and phone, I am invariably told a tale of overwhelmed CS because of countless queries about the terms of something or other.

This point was raised:-

[QUOTE]Winnings on bets made from the Cash Account are sent directly to the Cash Account. However, if you have opted in for the bonus,

you will be unable to withdraw any amount from your account until you've either met the wagering requirements or played through the bonus.

Many would understand this, but it is not direct. It used legalised language to express the concept, presumably in order to prevent smarta$$es from finding loopholes, however, a few people may be unable to see the wood from the trees in this, and not mentally translate this as:-
"You may not request a withdrawal until you have met the wagering requirements, or until you have played your balance to zero."

The problem phrase is "played through the bonus". "Playing through", can have other meanings than having zeroed out, such as promotions where you have to "play through" your deposit a number of times in order to receive a benefit from a promotion. the most common being the 1x playthrough of a deposit to get a bonus related to it. This leads to the interpretation of "played through the bonus", as meaning to have made wagers to at least the value of the bonus funds. These kinds of confusions tend to affect players whose grasp of English is not so good, or who have learned it as a second language. Native English speakers would most likely grasp the correct meaning by context, and experienced players would grasp the correct meaning through experience of the industry. Unfortunately, separating the genuine misinterpretation from the smarta$$ is not easy, so it is best to ensure the potential for misinterpretation is not there in the first place.

While we bombard Neteller about their shortcomings, it is time for casinos to bombard Microgaming about the lack of support the software has for this EZBonus rule variant.

Although players really should NOT just assume all MG casinos are the same, Microgaming have attempted, by implementing the EZBonus, to give players a common standard that they can understand for all MG casinos. MG had this idea that the players would then be spared the problems arising from different terms at different casinos, and gave casino operators the ability to change game weightings as a tool to alter WR to their individual taste. This method for controlling WR is FULLY SUPPORTED in the software.
In the case of Prime, they have stuck to the standard game weightings, they have not even bothered trying to use what MG supplied to reduce their outgoings, they have, as a first resort, rushed through a new and unsupported rule variant, not told their audit team, and only told players who are such pedants thatb they read and re-read terms pretty much every time they log on. This eventually blew up in their faces, and not only has it caused bad publicity, it has shaken to the core trust in the safety of funds in our Neteller accounts.
The result is likely that other competitor casinos will use this to their advantage, as XXLClub have already. Players will not hold funds with Neteller quite so readily, and although not obvious, casinos will suffer a loss of promotional take up as a result, as if the money is out of Neteller, it cannot be put back in time to take the offers up, so players will let them lapse. Players who already play will be far less inclined to try new casinos, because they could at least trust most of the ones they are currently with more. This will weaken the ability of casinos to attract players who already play, and new players could be put off if they see any bad publicity before they even start.

[TravelMaxx]

Not much much to be added to what vinylweatherman said.

Josh, could you please answer the following statement i made earlier:

Also the terms today still make a difference between Cash- and Bonusbalance. Does this make sense if the player isn´t allowed to withdraw at any time - for me it doesn´t. For me the word "Cash-Balance" indicates that it is yours and you are free to withdraw it - this is also what the cashier says.

Another point: voiding winnings is such a strong intervention that i at least would expect the casino to announce this consequence of an early withdrawal in the promotion terms. In fact the promotion terms still don´t say that a early withdrawal would have the consequence that all winnings made before would be voided.

Josh, you accepted that your terms are unclear and have to be changed but still the player is the only one that has to pay for it whilst you, as a casino, even made a profit out of it - is this your interpretation of fairness?