Prime Casino remove my money from Neteller!

[indievertigo]

Originally Posted by PrimeCasino

Now I'm confused. When have I ever threatened Vinylweatherman or anyone else for that matter? In fact, I believe he has some good points about the Neteller issue and I've instructed support never to make chargebacks without checking with me first.

If you want Casinos and Neteller to not be able to do this, you must complain to Neteller in swarms and perhaps it will happen. Until then, all Casinos will have the ability to do this. I'm not saying it's right and as you can see, I agree with Vinylweatherman's opinion and have refunded their bonus and winnings.

My mistake, I meant spearmaster.

Just because casinos CAN do this, doesn't mean they do. Those casinos that request scans of credit cards CAN take the info (and before any pedant comes and says the numbers are blackened out, the backs of credit cards show the numbers indented) and defraud someone, but they don't. It would amount to a similar situation though, would it not?

Neteller are as much to blame as prime are, they allowed the money to be taken without consulting the player. I'd be very interested to see what it was prime casino said to neteller to convince them.
But, the issue still stands, you say that support must consult you first before stealing from a player... that does nothing for anyone, you need to put it in your ts and cs that withdrawals are final.

CM, i'm chilled don't worry I was merely quite shocked at how josh is dealing with this. I hope you agree though that this (if all the claims made so far are true) is an issue of some importance.

[Lunkan]

Isn't the big issue that casinos are allowed to reverse withdrawals the player makes to Neteller?

While the best thing from the point of view of us players would be to have the funds returned to Neteller, I'm reasonably satisfied with the resolution. That Neteller allows their merchants to reverse transaction without a dispute with the account holder first is the bigger problem as I see it. I have already contacted Neteller about this and they replied that they would review their policy. If more people did this that would make this a bigger priority for them.

Jens, as you point out your problem is quite different and maybe that discussion should go into a different thread.

[vinylweatherman]

Originally Posted by TravelMaxx

From my perspective there are two issues here that should be discussed:

1.) The Neteller issue: you still tell everybody that Neteller gave you the opportunity to revoke the payments - and that therefore everybody should discuss that with Neteller and not you. But you were it that used this opportunity - so it is only your responsibility and your fault.

2.) The fact that you voided winnings.

What really makes me angry (even if i try to stay polite) is, that you absolutely ignore my arguments and questions. You ignored them in the mails i sent you and you ignore them in this thread.

Do you really think it is a normal practice to void winnings made with funds, the player risked? Did your terms that were valid when i signed up allowed you to do so? I think not. Your terms are extremely contradictory - they still are (i made an example in my first post) and what your cashier states is even more contradictory to the intention of your terms. If it is not allowed to withdraw before meeting the wagering requirements why does your cashier say it is and that the player would only forfeit the bonus? Why do you split between Cash-Balance and Bonus-Balance if, in fact, the player has no cash before he fully meet the wagering requirements.

Another point: i did at no time say, that i didn´t read your terms! I read them and i obviously misunderstood them and you did everything to make them hard to understand.

Your statement that you would love to block invalid withdrawal requests automatically: i can´t believe that. If it was true, why did you decide to void bonus AND winnings, why didn´t you simply refund the withdrawal and tell the people to meet the obligations? That is what the software would have done. You make profit of this canceled withdrawal and in my opinion a reputable casino wouldn´t.

Your case is weaker. There is proof that the terms had changed at least by the 8th May, as this revision appears on the Casinomeister announcement of accredited status. Your deposit was on the 10th.

One point worth considering is how were players expected to know about this change, was something done to draw attention to the fact that an update had been made, such as a note in the E-mail welcoming new players?
If the casino just slipped the term in on a nonedescript arbitrary date and give no indication, it is reasonable to expect that it might take a few days for players to notice the change. It is totally unreasonable to expect players to check and recheck each and every day like a sufferer of OCD - or are players supposed to be so paranoid, because they really ARE out to trap you.

Betting the entire bankroll on a single Roulette bet is just asking for trouble nowdays, although this is not against the T & C, it makes the audit department sit up and take notice. They then use the argument that your next action was to withdraw and drop the bonus. This all comes under the modern invention by casinos of "bonus abuse", and should really be more specifically defined, as even if you had read the terms and fully understood them, you would merely have finished WR after the roulette bet instead of withdrawing, and your winnings would still have been confiscated.
This, however, is against Casinomeister rules, since the terms did not prohibit any particular playing style, nor is Roulette a banned game. It is simply a cae of the casino deciding, after the fact, that they just didn't like HOW you won 3x your initial bankroll. This is what eventually got Fortune Lounge into the Rogue pit, winnings should only be revoked for fraud, not for clever play. Fraud would be claiming the bonus twice by registering two accounts, and trying this twice & then withdrawing from the successful attempt. Because you mention download problems, could you clarify that you did NOT register both a new Flash account and Download account, and claim the bonus twice; as this would leave you with no case at all.

The fact that the T & C are misleading in the banking page means that it is immoral to use this as a "trap" to catch players out who believe this banking page is correct, being what they see at withdrawal, i.e, the LATEST expression of the rules for withdrawal. It is the casinos fault that they decided to go beyond what the software can support at the present time.
The casino should have gone back to MGS and demanded this shortcoming be fixed so that the banking screen can be adapted by operators who need to remove the standard EZBonus terms to implement this increasingly common variant.

[Joda]

First of all, fair play to Josh. Public opinion was well documented here and he acted accordingly. Regardless of the initial exchanges, he decided to return the cash for further wagering. I may argue that allowing bash to withdraw immediately may curry favour with the public but that is neither here nor there as we say....

However, having reputable casinos snipe at each other on a public forum(possibly the most) does not do anything to enhance their reputations IMO.

[TravelMaxx]

Originally Posted by vinylweatherman

Your case is weaker. There is proof that the terms had changed at least by the 8th May, as this revision appears on the Casinomeister announcement of accredited status. Your deposit was on the 10th.

Yes, obviously the terms changed before i registered but one of my main points is, that the terms are extremely contradictory. For example this is still part of the terms:

Winnings on bets made from the Cash Account are sent directly to the Cash Account. However, if you have opted in for the bonus, you will be unable to withdraw any amount from your account until you've either met the wagering requirements or played through the bonus.

I absolutely don´t understand what the casino wants to say us with this if early withdrawals aren´t allowed.


Also the terms today still make a difference between Cash- and Bonusbalance. Does this make sense if the player isn´t allowed to withdraw at any time - for me it doesn´t. For me the word "Cash-Balance" indicates that it is yours and you are free to withdraw it - this is also what the cashier says.

Another point: voiding winnings is such a strong intervention that i at least would expect the casino to announce this consequence of an early withdrawal in the promotion terms. In fact the promotion terms still don´t say that a early withdrawal would have the consequence that all winnings made before would be voided.

Originally Posted by vinylweatherman

Fraud would be claiming the bonus twice by registering two accounts, and trying this twice & then withdrawing from the successful attempt. Because you mention download problems, could you clarify that you did NOT register both a new Flash account and Download account, and claim the bonus twice; as this would leave you with no case at all.

No, i didn´t register a Flash account and a Download account. I registered an flash account because i failed to register the Download account.

Originally Posted by vinylweatherman

The fact that the T & C are misleading in the banking page means that it is immoral to use this as a "trap" to catch players out who believe this banking page is correct, being what they see at withdrawal, i.e, the LATEST expression of the rules for withdrawal. It is the casinos fault that they decided to go beyond what the software can support at the present time.
The casino should have gone back to MGS and demanded this shortcoming be fixed so that the banking screen can be adapted by operators who need to remove the standard EZBonus terms to implement this increasingly common variant.

I couldn´t have said better.

[Da_Gambla]

Originally Posted by bash_2357

I also have the email from neteller telling me Prime have taken the money back and will happily forward that too. But the matter is closed as far as i am concerned.

Well, you originally brought this to our attention as a problem about them snatching your cashout through NetTeller.

Post title: Casino remove my money from Neteller!

That appears to have not been your issue. Your issue seems to be the same as TravelMaxx. You did not abide by the T&C's that were in effect when you deposited, the casino took your winnings and bonus, and so you then used the way they took the winnings back as your "vehicle" to get them to return these things to your casino account. Another case of a player saying "I got mine.. seeya!" Amazing how powerful money is... but at the end of the day, out of court settlements are sometimes just as telling as court ruled decisions.

Thanks for your contribution, bash, you got yours. Nonetheless, the policy is still an issue for the rest of the players who might be subject to this method of thievery in the future. If Josh posts that he doesn't necessarily believe this method is "right", then it would be in his company's best interest to STOP the practice and guarantee through an addition to their T&C's that this practice will not happen again. That will suffice until NetTeller can clarify what their position is, and where it will be in the future.

The TravelMaxx issue is becoming an extreme distraction to this discussion, but VWM is making some good points. I wish it was in its own thread, however. I'm mildly sympathetic, but not amused with how this was piggy-backed. It could be construed as a desperation attempt to sneak in a favorable decision whilst the rep is distracted with other pressing issues, or is feeling pressure to create good PR. Since that is in the back of my mind and would color anything I might say, I'll leave that discussion to VWM and stay out of it for now.

- Keith

[pangloss]

Originally Posted by PrimeCasino

If you want Casinos and Neteller to not be able to do this, you must complain to Neteller in swarms and perhaps it will happen.

Lolz. Players, affiliates, webmasters and hangers on alike are complaining to YOU in swarms. Maybe you haven't noticed.

I am going to make a second and repeat request. Produce ALL the correspondence between Prime and Neteller that resulted in the subject funds (2 X accounts) being removed from Neteller and sent to Prime.

I suspect you misrepresented the position to Neteller. I suspect you told Neteller that the players had defrauded Prime Casino and obtained the winnings by unlawful means. In these circumstances not only have the players been libelled and their good character defamed, but in addition, the false pretence to Neteller in order to obtain an advantage is yet another criminal offence to be taken into account in this sorry saga.

Produce and publish the said correspondence and demonstrate that my suspicions are unfoundered. I bet you don't.


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[Vesuvio]

Originally Posted by pangloss

I suspect you misrepresented the position to Neteller. I suspect you told Neteller that the players had defrauded Prime Casino and obtained the winnings by unlawful means. In these circumstances not only have the players been libelled and their good character defamed, but in addition, the false pretence to Neteller in order to obtain an advantage is yet another criminal offence to be taken into account in this sorry saga.

We shouldn't jump to conclusions, though I also doubt Neteller would have agreed to this charge back 2 weeks after the fact except in case of blatant error or fraud. The problem of damaged reputation is important because Neteller have been known to close accounts on the basis of what on-line casinos have told them (another example of Neteller having too close a relationship to casinos).

If Neteller/Prime are unwilling to disclose any details of this case it would be helpful if some of those involved could try and obtain the info held on them from Neteller. As they're registered in the Isle of Man it should be fairly straightforward and cost no more than GBP10: http://www.gov.im/odps/yourrights.xml

[PrimeCasino]

Vinylweatherman,

Listen, I really appreciate your argument here but it is very difficult to inform players that haven't even registered as fun players, that our T&C's have changed. However, I see the problem and have figured out a way we can deal with this problem. On the index page, the next time I change the terms, I will write some text near the copywrite information that says something like: Our T&C's have changed recently. Please click here to read them.

How do you would you feel about me doing that and then dating each of the T&C's as they're changed. It's obvious this won't be the last time they are changed since there are obviously some serious issues with them that need to be resolved.

However, this player did register their fun account well before the terms changed and it's the player's responsibility to read the terms at the time of initial signup. Having said that, I find it very hard to believe that a player would come to our site, read the terms, and then not even download the software until several days after. Jens is also not claiming that she assumed the terms were the old one, only that she assumed that we were on the same ClearPlay policy as other MGS Casinos. I really don't feel I should be held responsible for what people assume.

What do you think?

Josh.

Originally Posted by vinylweatherman

Your case is weaker. There is proof that the terms had changed at least by the 8th May, as this revision appears on the Casinomeister announcement of accredited status. Your deposit was on the 10th.

One point worth considering is how were players expected to know about this change, was something done to draw attention to the fact that an update had been made, such as a note in the E-mail welcoming new players?
If the casino just slipped the term in on a nonedescript arbitrary date and give no indication, it is reasonable to expect that it might take a few days for players to notice the change. It is totally unreasonable to expect players to check and recheck each and every day like a sufferer of OCD - or are players supposed to be so paranoid, because they really ARE out to trap you.

Betting the entire bankroll on a single Roulette bet is just asking for trouble nowdays, although this is not against the T & C, it makes the audit department sit up and take notice. They then use the argument that your next action was to withdraw and drop the bonus. This all comes under the modern invention by casinos of "bonus abuse", and should really be more specifically defined, as even if you had read the terms and fully understood them, you would merely have finished WR after the roulette bet instead of withdrawing, and your winnings would still have been confiscated.
This, however, is against Casinomeister rules, since the terms did not prohibit any particular playing style, nor is Roulette a banned game. It is simply a cae of the casino deciding, after the fact, that they just didn't like HOW you won 3x your initial bankroll. This is what eventually got Fortune Lounge into the Rogue pit, winnings should only be revoked for fraud, not for clever play. Fraud would be claiming the bonus twice by registering two accounts, and trying this twice & then withdrawing from the successful attempt. Because you mention download problems, could you clarify that you did NOT register both a new Flash account and Download account, and claim the bonus twice; as this would leave you with no case at all.

The fact that the T & C are misleading in the banking page means that it is immoral to use this as a "trap" to catch players out who believe this banking page is correct, being what they see at withdrawal, i.e, the LATEST expression of the rules for withdrawal. It is the casinos fault that they decided to go beyond what the software can support at the present time.
The casino should have gone back to MGS and demanded this shortcoming be fixed so that the banking screen can be adapted by operators who need to remove the standard EZBonus terms to implement this increasingly common variant.

[PrimeCasino]

If I hadn't noticed, I clearly wouldn't be here addressing the issues. You seem to be unsatisfied the way I'm handling things. Why is that exactly? What's your angle in this? The players are both happy but you continue to pour fuel into the fire.

Like I have over the last two days, make yourself familiar with how Neteller works with a Vendor account before making sweeping criminal allegations about how we do business. Some of you have very valid points but you for example are clearly picking fights for no good reason. Who are you fighting for right now exactly? The players have both said they are happy with the resolution. Why aren't you?

I have spoken with the head fof our support team and he explained it to me like this: We are able to reverse any deposit we make to a Neteller account if the funds still exist. We don't need to provide documentation of any kind and this is simply known as a "reverse chargeback".

I understand that this may make many of you uncomfortable but it is a Neteller reality and I highly doubt we are the first people to do it. Having said that, I've issued a policy that this is never to happen again without coming across my desk first. I'll also say that this entire incident occurred as a result of us changing the T&C's. From now on, I'll put a notice on the Casino index page of changes and a date. From that point, there should be no more excuses for not reading them.

I know you'd like to believe that there is a secret conspiracy going on where my Casino is defrauding players by the millions by lying to Neteller but that's simply not the case. You're welcome to call Neteller and ask them what kind of documentation is required because there is none required.

Any Casino or in fact, any vendor using Neteller can reverse a charge so long as the funds still exist in the account. In the future, please relax your tone a bit. I'm doing my best to sort this out. Since you're keen on giving me orders, how about you take some yourself. Go contact Neteller and ask them what kind of documenation or proof a vendor needs in order to issue a chargeback. When you find out there isn't any, perhaps you can come back and apologize labeling us as liars and criminals.

Thanks,

Josh.

Originally Posted by pangloss

Lolz. Players, affiliates, webmasters and hangers on alike are complaining to YOU in swarms. Maybe you haven't noticed.

I am going to make a second and repeat request. Produce ALL the correspondence between Prime and Neteller that resulted in the subject funds (2 X accounts) being removed from Neteller and sent to Prime.

I suspect you misrepresented the position to Neteller. I suspect you told Neteller that the players had defrauded Prime Casino and obtained the winnings by unlawful means. In these circumstances not only have the players been libelled and their good character defamed, but in addition, the false pretence to Neteller in order to obtain an advantage is yet another criminal offence to be taken into account in this sorry saga.

Produce and publish the said correspondence and demonstrate that my suspicions are unfoundered. I bet you don't.


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