Prime Casino remove my money from Neteller!

[indievertigo]

This matter shouldn't be swept under the carpet, it is an extremely serious issue. Josh, your attitude stinks, threatening Vinylweatherman as you did is low. You are like a petrified animal backed into a corner, digging your own grave. Until you have your terms and conditions updated to include (as XXL did) 'all processed withdrawals are final' then your casino is going to suffer, FACT.

Am interested to see that CM hasn't said anything about the small matter of a neteller chargeback.

[PrimeCasino]

Now I'm confused. When have I ever threatened Vinylweatherman or anyone else for that matter? In fact, I believe he has some good points about the Neteller issue and I've instructed support never to make chargebacks without checking with me first.

If you want Casinos and Neteller to not be able to do this, you must complain to Neteller in swarms and perhaps it will happen. Until then, all Casinos will have the ability to do this. I'm not saying it's right and as you can see, I agree with Vinylweatherman's opinion and have refunded their bonus and winnings.

Originally Posted by indievertigo

This matter shouldn't be swept under the carpet, it is an extremely serious issue. Josh, your attitude stinks, threatening Vinylweatherman as you did is low. You are like a petrified animal backed into a corner, digging your own grave. Until you have your terms and conditions updated to include (as XXL did) 'all processed withdrawals are final' then your casino is going to suffer, FACT.

Am interested to see that CM hasn't said anything about the small matter of a neteller chargeback.

[Swede]

Originally Posted by PrimeCasino

If you want Casinos and Neteller to not be able to do this, you must complain to Neteller in swarms and perhaps it will happen. Until then, all Casinos will have the ability to do this.

Hello Joshua and all,

This will be my first comment in this thread. As of above, I do not dispute the ability of a casino to retrieve it's funds from Neteller for whatever reason; This will open up a whole new discussion but until then here's what goes:

The 'bigger' casinos such as 'you know which' also has this opportunity but will never ever impliment it for obvious reasons.

As VWM clearly states, a dispute between player and casino has to be officially opened no matter from where we hail. This implies a close communication involving both above and certainly also a third party(lawyer, spokesperson, escrow agent) or whomever involved parties have chosen. Until then, a 'recovery' of players funds is a breach of law and can/will be interpreted as such.

[PrimeCasino]

Hi Jens,

I want to thank you for being as polite as you've been regarding this issue and I understand that you're upset. However, as you've said yourself, your situation is entirely different from Mohammed and Anders. You signed up and deposited several days after we changed the terms and conditions. We also never credited you with these funds to begin with. I'm afraid that in this case, I'm going to have to stick to my guns.

It's not expensive for us to credit you the money but it's not about that. I've made good on the two people here who deserve it but I am not going to release funds to a player just because they claim to have not read the T&C's. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but even if I made an exception for you, imagine the flood of people just like you that will claim to have "not read the terms". This opens us up to massive promo abuse and we've been hit exceptionally hard since we've opened with exactly this kind of situation. In fact, this was the main catalyst for changing the terms to begin with.

There was no "illegal" withdrawal from your Neteller account as we caught this before you were credited the money and so I'm telling you one last time that I wish you the best but I am not going to credit you with this money.

Best Regards,

Josh.

Originally Posted by TravelMaxx

I have a very similar problem like it has being discussed in this thread so far. I tried to solve it with Joshua by mail but his last reply was, that i wouldn´t get my deposit and winnings refunded and that this was his final decision.

First of all i want to introduce myself. I am a very long time lurker here and a very long time subscriber to the Newsletter but only signed up to the forum yesterday because i waited four days to receive a reply on my first mail to Joshua and thought it would be a good idea to send him a PM. The reason i didn´t sign up before is, that i never had any problem with any casino and i played a lot - with and without bonuses. I know, that it is absolutely not optimal that my very first post at the forum is a complaint but so it is:

On 10th of May i deposited 100 Euro to the Casino by credit card. I several times attempted to download the PrimeCasino software (with Firefox and IE) but i was unsucessfull so i decided to register on the Flash Casino. I made my deposit, claimed the bonus and received it some time later. I decided to either triple my bankroll or bust so i bet my whole balance on the last third and won - after that i decided to cash out. I know, that this is the difference to the original poster and another difference is, that the money never hit my Neteller or Moneybookers account but was withhold from Prime. I understand that this may be the difference in our cases but still feel treated unfair by the casino and am very interested in other members point of view.

I really didn´t know, that to withdraw before meeting the wagering requirements would allow them to forfeit the winning made up to this point. In fact i can´t still see where their terms allow that. This is a point that really makes me angry about the whole situation - i asked Josh and also the live support several times whether this withdrawal of winnings is really in accordance to the T&C that were affective when i signed up. So far i didn´t receive an answer on it.

I would like to post a copy of the mails Joshua and i sent us to explain my point of view and his reaction better but i don´t know, whether it is in accordance with the forums rules and whether it would be OK for Joshua so i start with a mail i sent him and that i didn´t get an explicit reaction on:



and another mail i sent him shortly thereafter




I accept that my situation is different from the situation bash_2357 was in but i am still very interested in everybodys point of view - even if you don´t share mine.

Thank you!

[Casinomeister]

Originally Posted by indievertigo

This matter shouldn't be swept under the carpet, it is an extremely serious issue. Josh, your attitude stinks, threatening Vinylweatherman as you did is low. You are like a petrified animal backed into a corner, digging your own grave. Until you have your terms and conditions updated to include (as XXL did) 'all processed withdrawals are final' then your casino is going to suffer, FACT.

Am interested to see that CM hasn't said anything about the small matter of a neteller chargeback.

I feel that Josh is dealing with this player issue up-front and honestly. Where did he threaten VWM?

You need to chill in a serious way.

Why no long comments from me? Besides this thread, it's been a busy day - I'm trying to catch up on PABs, two casinos got rogued, one pardoned, shit loads of emails, Chinese site being worked on, all sorts of crap. In other words, I'm not investing time today to get into a discussion about Neteller/casino issues. Especially when we don't know exactly what happened.

I'm waiting for more info on this, besides the last I heard these players were taken care of.

[hunterduke]

very interesting thread
and im glad the players got their credits back
however
im still curious about one thing though, the one question that was never answered by josh or anyone else to my knowledge is what would have happened if the money was no longer in netteller to take back by the casino

[bash_2357]

Thanks casinomeister- as soon as you joined the case, the matter got resolved in a matter of hours.

[Da_Gambla]

Originally Posted by PrimeCasino

Now I'm confused. When have I ever threatened Vinylweatherman or anyone else for that matter? In fact, I believe he has some good points about the Neteller issue and I've instructed support never to make chargebacks without checking with me first.

I believe the poster confused VWM with SpearMaster...

Originally Posted by PrimeCasino

I'm not saying it's right and as you can see, I agree with Vinylweatherman's opinion and have refunded their bonus and winnings.

No, I don't really think so, sir. You may not be saying it's right, but your company did it, which means you took advantage of something that isn't right. It's good to see that you clearly understand the bigger issue than all of these Playtech sidebars...

As well, you did NOT refund these player's cashouts (unless I missed a post in this thread). You re-deposited them back into their casino account, which is much much different than a refund BACK to their NT accounts (where they BELONG!!)

Pending a cashout, the money is YOURS, and scrutinize to your liking before clearing a payment. Once the money is cleared and trasferred to the player's e-Wallet, it's THEIR MONEY. No one should be able to transfer that money anywhere without the e-Wallet account holder's expressed permission and PIN entry to confirm. You stole their money.

After you stole their money, and after they complained here, you made the money available in their casino accounts and told them to play through in order to receive the money back. Friend, that is suspiciously close to extortion. Here we have both players saying they will take your offer, but is it by a voluntary basis or by coercion? I think the answer to that question is clear.

Once they have cleared WR and cashout, they still have a valid complaint and potential suit against Prime. In my humble opinion, you have probably put Prime in a worse position legally by doing this in-house account refund rather than a straight NetTeller refund. Your lawyers may differ on the opinion there.

I will say to you, Josh, that I am troubled by some of the wording used by the OP in his original complaint. There was certainly some information he posted that was dodgy, and I'll give you the benefit of any doubt that you could disprove some of things he said. He will pay for that in his reputation around here, and in the future if he posts a problem, he will probably be grilled quite thoroughly by the membership here. That's his loss for now.

That being said, two wrongs do not make it right. You and your company will surely suffer consequences for your wrong response. Hours are ticking by. This thread is getting HUGE amounts of viewing time. Google is picking it up as we type. Soon it will start hitting industry Blogs and Newsletters. I'd say within about a week, this should be a damned impressive tsunami headed your general direction (along with NetTeller).

Other casinos are already taking advantage of your mistake and welcoming your potential players with new T&C's that promise this will not happen. Where's yours?

Refund these player's money to their NetTeller accounts and revise your T&C's to reflect your stance on this issue. I -know- neither of these individuals either deserve or earned this money fairly, but in the end, your security team dropped the ball, and your company is responsible for the loss. If they are honorable players, they will re-deposit voluntarily and go through the WR properly. If they do not re-deposit and run with the money, then post it here and that will be their legacy. Trust me, we can make life real uncomfortable for players who don't play fairly, and I also think you know that this is probably the only site where we will scrutinize and hold players accountable in such an intense fashion. I side with your "why", I cannot support your reaction. It is not appropriate business behavior. You're bigger than this, are you not?

A real resolution that makes your company appear to be the bigger gentleman would be wise. The tsunami approaches.

Respectfully,
- Keith

ADDENDUM: At face value, it seems that this thread bears out that the money was removed from NetTeller by the casino. Now there have been a few posts questioning whether the money was ever in NetTeller. If the money ever hit NetTeller, and I could care less whether it was for two minutes or two weeks, then my post stands at full attention. If information comes forward that the OP was not honest, and the money never was in his NeTeller account, then I completely side with Prime and they have every right to require proper play through before cashout. I'll reserve any further up-front criticism of Prime until this information is made available. I trust that will be soon.

/ADDENDUM

[bash_2357]

Originally Posted by Da_Gambla

I#. If the money ever hit NetTeller, and I could care less whether it was for two minutes or two weeks, then my post stands at full attention. If information comes forward that the OP was not honest, and the money never was in his NeTeller account, then I completely side with Prime and they have every right to require proper play through before cashout. I'll reserve any further up-front criticism of Prime until this information is made available. I trust that will be soon.



/ADDENDUM

The Money definitely hit neteller and was sitting there for two weeks. If people really don't believe me then i could provide a screenshot of my neteller account ( with obvious details edited). I also have the email from neteller telling me Prime have taken the money back and will happily forward that too. But the matter is closed as far as i am concerned.

[TravelMaxx]

From my perspective there are two issues here that should be discussed:

1.) The Neteller issue: you still tell everybody that Neteller gave you the opportunity to revoke the payments - and that therefore everybody should discuss that with Neteller and not you. But you were it that used this opportunity - so it is only your responsibility and your fault.

2.) The fact that you voided winnings.

What really makes me angry (even if i try to stay polite) is, that you absolutely ignore my arguments and questions. You ignored them in the mails i sent you and you ignore them in this thread.

Do you really think it is a normal practice to void winnings made with funds, the player risked? Did your terms that were valid when i signed up allowed you to do so? I think not. Your terms are extremely contradictory - they still are (i made an example in my first post) and what your cashier states is even more contradictory to the intention of your terms. If it is not allowed to withdraw before meeting the wagering requirements why does your cashier say it is and that the player would only forfeit the bonus? Why do you split between Cash-Balance and Bonus-Balance if, in fact, the player has no cash before he fully meet the wagering requirements.

Another point: i did at no time say, that i didn´t read your terms! I read them and i obviously misunderstood them and you did everything to make them hard to understand.

Your statement that you would love to block invalid withdrawal requests automatically: i can´t believe that. If it was true, why did you decide to void bonus AND winnings, why didn´t you simply refund the withdrawal and tell the people to meet the obligations? That is what the software would have done. You make profit of this canceled withdrawal and in my opinion a reputable casino wouldn´t.

Originally Posted by PrimeCasino

Hi Jens,

I want to thank you for being as polite as you've been regarding this issue and I understand that you're upset. However, as you've said yourself, your situation is entirely different from Mohammed and Anders. You signed up and deposited several days after we changed the terms and conditions. We also never credited you with these funds to begin with. I'm afraid that in this case, I'm going to have to stick to my guns.

It's not expensive for us to credit you the money but it's not about that. I've made good on the two people here who deserve it but I am not going to release funds to a player just because they claim to have not read the T&C's. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but even if I made an exception for you, imagine the flood of people just like you that will claim to have "not read the terms". This opens us up to massive promo abuse and we've been hit exceptionally hard since we've opened with exactly this kind of situation. In fact, this was the main catalyst for changing the terms to begin with.

There was no "illegal" withdrawal from your Neteller account as we caught this before you were credited the money and so I'm telling you one last time that I wish you the best but I am not going to credit you with this money.

Best Regards,

Josh.