Prime Casino remove my money from Neteller!

[PrimeCasino]

Spin FGH, the owners and operators of Spin Palace are the people who handle our support. I have been trying to credit these accounts as of several hours ago but the emails are bouncing back with delay messages and their systems are offline. I have spoken with Tim from Wagershare about it and he tells me that the power is offline and that they're working as fast as possible to resolve this. You're welcome to try emailing either our support, Spin's support, or calling any of our support numbers for verification of this fact.

Please try to understand that I'm trying to sort you guys out but you're just going to have to give me some time. In answer to your question, Lunkan, I am not a support agent and have several PM's I'm dealing with prior to the one you've just sent me. Please be patient as there is nothing I can do until I get support on the phone today. If you fall within the same situation as Mohammed, you will get your money credited back but there is no way for me to check this until I can get through to support.

Thanks for your patience,

Josh.

[Casinomeister]

Hi Bash and Lunkan,

Let's have some patience - okay? Josh said he's working on this. Thanks!

[pangloss]

Originally Posted by Casinomeister

Anyway - good that the smoke is clearing on this. I think the resolution is fair, and I hope this issue is settled.

Somehow I think not. Money in NeTeller for 2 weeks then disappears?? Neteller IS NOT a credit facility, there is no charge back provision, it is a e-wallet. You pick my wallet I call the Police. Theft, larceny, stealing.

I call on Prime Casino to release all correspondence between them and neteller that facilitated the removal of funds from players neteller accounts without their consent or knowledge.

This is not just gross incompetance - it is quite clearly a matter of criminality.

As my new friend keith (Da_Gambler) remarked, "Gawd this is bad.... disgusting... "

Disgusting indeed.


...

[PrimeCasino]

Originally Posted by pangloss

Somehow I think not. Money in NeTeller for 2 weeks then disappears?? Neteller IS NOT a credit facility, there is no charge back provision, it is a e-wallet. You pick my wallet I call the Police. Theft, larceny, stealing.

I call on Prime Casino to release all correspondence between them and neteller that facilitated the removal of funds from players neteller accounts without their consent or knowledge.

This is not just gross incompetance - it is quite clearly a matter of criminality.

As my new friend keith (Da_Gambler) remarked, "Gawd this is bad.... disgusting... "

Disgusting indeed.


...

I haven't even verified that these funds have actually been removed by Neteller. I have only your word to go on and I need to see the transaction records which I can't get until support is back online. Those of you posting are assuming that this actually happened, that it was in fact 2 weeks later, and that the Casino is always lying and that the player is always telling the truth. I am not accusing anyone of misleading this forum until I have the whole story which I can't get because even the phones at support are currently offline. Please be patient and let me find out how and why this happened. Regardless of the situation though, I am not crediting the money back into Neteller accounts. I will credit the affected Casino accounts and you can play through your wagering requirements which was what you were supposed to do according to the terms and conditions.

I'm waiting to hear back from support about how this happened, why it happened, why I wasn't informed, and when, if and why/the players weren't informed either. Ranting and raving like a lunatic isn't going to make this situation resolve itself any quicker. I think it's quite a stretch to think that for a few thousand pounds, I'm going to voluntarily "pick your pocket" and steal from you. Please lets give the drama a rest already and give me a chance to sort it out.

Thanks,

Josh.

[XXLClubCasino]

Originally Posted by Da_Gambla

Wow this is disturbing...
As for the other casino reps who read this thread, thanks to Prime, we all know you all could possibly do the same thing as well. That's going to be a problem. The operations that come out with wording in their T&C's that state all cleared payments are final will be the educated consumer's first choice, so think about it. The rabbit's outta the hat here...

I've had our T&C updated with your suggestion, not believing many players will read it but as I fully disagree with this practice and even didn't know it to be possible I think it's good trust for the player to have it written in the T&C for player's safety.

Anyway as long as I'm manager of XXL we will never consider doing this with my knowledge we are sometimes hurt by scruple less players doing charge backs and I always find it disgusting.

T&C at http://www.xxlclubcasino.com/terms.html 6.5.3

6.5 Payments

6.5.1 You agree that we or a payment processing company on our behalf will handle all financial account transactions ("Payment Processor"). You hereby agree that the Payment Processor reserves the right to withhold any payments should the Payment Processor have reason to believe or any suspicion that you may be engaging in or have engaged in fraudulent, collusion, unlawful, or improper activity.

6.5.2 You agree to fully pay any and all payments due to us or any third party in connection with your use of the Online Casino. You further agree not to make any charge-backs and/or renounce or cancel or otherwise reverse any of your due payments and in any such event you will refund and compensate us for such unpaid payments including any expenses incurred by us in the process of collecting your payment.

6.5.3 All cleared payments by the Casino and or Payment Processor are final.

[Lunkan]

I can confirm that my Prime casino account now has been credited with the money taken from my Neteller account + the bonus that was voided when making the cash out.

I'd like to thank Josh and Prime Casino for at least coming to a reasonable resolution.

EDIT: Actually I'm quite happy with the resolution since my account was credited $120 extra, $100 since I got to keep my initial deposit upon the returned $667 and $20 extra in the bonus balance since I was credited the full $100 bonus when $20 of it was playthroughed last time. Josh has confirmed I can keep these funds.

[bash_2357]

Good news. The matter is resolved ( i know there is more to it but i am reasonably happy). But to give Josh credit( !) where it is due, the funds have been returned to my account including the bonus. I know it got ugly, but Josh has responded very quickly today. So well done Prime in sorting this out, in the end and apologies to referring to you as ' finally seeing sense'. it has taken too many telephone calls ( wait 24hours for management to return etc), emails and i was naturally wound up about it.

[vinylweatherman]

Originally Posted by PrimeCasino

Spear,

I know exactly who you are and who you work for so I find it even more entertaining that you're willing to dispute this fact with me. In addition, your first statement, "I hope you have the balls" hardly adds to your credibility and should make you even more embarassed given who you work for. Do they know that you're posting here? I'm curious because I wonder how they would feel about one of their employees acting like a 6 year old.

Are you honestly going to lie to everyone in this thread? Are you going to sit here and tell them that Playtech doesn't own Casino Partners and formerly several other Playtech Online Casinos? I'm still not understanding what you think is out of line here or if this just you taking Pot Shots at competing software. Let's take what I said once more:

"as Playtech seems to generally follow this rule as well. In addition, their requirements are twice as hard to meet."

I'm quoting myself again since you obviously have reading comprehension issues. I said that Playtech seems to generally follow this rule. For example, take Casino Tropez. This casino is owned by Casino Partners and has the following terms:

" In the interest of fair gaming in order to cash out any amount of money you must wager at least eight (8) times your play bonus plus deposit. If you withdraw before having reached the minimum wagering requirements, your bonus and winnings will be void. "

Perhaps you explain to me how what I said was incorrect. I said they "generally follow this rule". The rule being that you can't withdraw until the bonus is cleared or both your winnings and bonus will be void. I never once stated that all Playtech Casinos are the same. You simply decided that this is what I said and then twisted my words to suit your argument. Perhaps you should re-read what I initially said in order for you to better process it.

Also, I'm still waiting for you admit that Playtech DOES in fact own some of its operators: Specifically Casino Partners for example. Owning your operator, regardless of how much you think you can argue it, means that they exert some level of control over it.

Cheers,

Josh.

Yes they do have this rule in general, with "can't" being the operative word here. If you attempt to withdraw without clearing all WR, you physically can't do so, an errror screen pops up to tell you that you have further WR to complete. it doesn't say how much, and you have to get this info from support. It also happens if you attempt to include part of the play bonus in the request, it tells you to select a different amount.
With Playtech, the software supports this rule, with MGS it does not, and the banking page often carelessly states the standard. Don't forget, it is the latest T & C a player reads that count, and the latest terms a player sees before withdrawing from EZBonus are the ones on the banking page. If these state that a withdrawal with bonus forfeit is allowed, then there is no reason to think otherwise.
I get the impression these terms changed on the 8th May. This is an arbitrary date, not an obvious date for a player to think to check the terms again. If the read them, say, on the 5th of May, and they carry no expiry date, it is perfectly reasonable to expect that any changes would be blatantly obvious if they managed to deposit a couple of days later.
Had your terms carried an expiry date, say, valid until 7th May, then a player depositing from the 8th Onward is duty bound to check again.
This is rogue like behaviour, have an offer on the site that player can see, but if they mull it over for a couple of days they might get entrapped by a change that they would only find out about when it was too late.
Don't forget, you say the player should have read the terms again, but so should your audit and payment team, they are professionals - it is their job to know, players are just entering an entertainment venue, they should expect entertainment, not to have their pocket picked days later.

The big issue about casinos taking unauthorised debits from Neteller, and in some cases banks, has now been stated by Prime as hard fact. The damage is that now any scammer can come along with a tale about a casino taking money out of their Neteller/bank without permission, and we are now far more likely to believe this outright rather than thinking that this might be a case of either a forgetful player, a gambler in denial, or just a scam attempt.
It seems that ANY casino, and at ANY time forward, can retrieve winnings from a players Neteller account WITHOUT any reference to the player concerned, so that the first they know is when they see money missing - as they have not been informed, they regard it as theft, and it takes Neteller to inform them it was in fact a chargeback.

How about this scenario then;

Player deposits £1200 at the casino by credit card, plays a promotion, say a lucky draw or tournament, as well as general play. Two weeks later they find out the promotion was not as advertised in the mailer, but was considerably worse (an actual case was the misleading Gift Rap free spins promo from BelleRock last year). They don't like this, so rather than inform the casino and negotiate, they instruct their card company to chargeback the deposits because of misrepresentation of the product. Just as Neteller will do this for a casino, the card company can do this for the player, and here in the UK at least, the player has the Consumer credit act on their side, and the original mailer, and demonstration that it contained an advertising mistake affecting the value of the offer, is all they will need.

In the BelleRock case, players vented steam in the forum, complained to the casino, some even uninstalled the software in protest, but, not one player claimed to have initiated a chargeback.

As for a cheque, it is not as safe as some think, it is possible to cancel a cheque even after it has cleared, and get the money back. This can be up to 30 days from paying in the cheque, although this is normally done where the cheque is found to be fraudulent in some way, but even here, banks have to inform the customer of the recovery so that they have a chance to respond before it happens.

[vinylweatherman]

Originally Posted by bash_2357

Hi Josh...

Still not been credited yet? You said an hour or so about 3 hours ago? Also presumably the bonus of £100 will get returned? So i can meet the wagering requirements.

I am willing to accpet this resolution even though many above feel that i should get the money back straight into my neteller account.

Thanks

This is probably wise, as had the software supported the rule change, this is exactly the position you would have ended up in.

Even the rogue Fortune Lounge, before EZBonus, always gave players one chance at complying with a wager rule by returning a withdrawal to the account for them to complete wagering. We then saw this as harsh, but now seems positively generous.
This whole industry is going to kill itself if these recent behaviours continue, and the US DoJ would just love this to happen.

[TravelMaxx]

I have a very similar problem like it has being discussed in this thread so far. I tried to solve it with Joshua by mail but his last reply was, that i wouldn´t get my deposit and winnings refunded and that this was his final decision.

First of all i want to introduce myself. I am a very long time lurker here and a very long time subscriber to the Newsletter but only signed up to the forum yesterday because i waited four days to receive a reply on my first mail to Joshua and thought it would be a good idea to send him a PM. The reason i didn´t sign up before is, that i never had any problem with any casino and i played a lot - with and without bonuses. I know, that it is absolutely not optimal that my very first post at the forum is a complaint but so it is:

On 10th of May i deposited 100 Euro to the Casino by credit card. I several times attempted to download the PrimeCasino software (with Firefox and IE) but i was unsucessfull so i decided to register on the Flash Casino. I made my deposit, claimed the bonus and received it some time later. I decided to either triple my bankroll or bust so i bet my whole balance on the last third and won - after that i decided to cash out. I know, that this is the difference to the original poster and another difference is, that the money never hit my Neteller or Moneybookers account but was withhold from Prime. I understand that this may be the difference in our cases but still feel treated unfair by the casino and am very interested in other members point of view.

I really didn´t know, that to withdraw before meeting the wagering requirements would allow them to forfeit the winning made up to this point. In fact i can´t still see where their terms allow that. This is a point that really makes me angry about the whole situation - i asked Josh and also the live support several times whether this withdrawal of winnings is really in accordance to the T&C that were affective when i signed up. So far i didn´t receive an answer on it.

I would like to post a copy of the mails Joshua and i sent us to explain my point of view and his reaction better but i don´t know, whether it is in accordance with the forums rules and whether it would be OK for Joshua so i start with a mail i sent him and that i didn´t get an explicit reaction on:

Hi Joshua,


first of all thank you for the fast reply on my second mail.

I think your decision to take away the winnings is not fair and i today still can´t see that it is in accordance with your own T&C, but besides that i want to explain you why i think it isn´t fair:

1.) I risked my own money - what would have happened if i lost, would you have refunded my original deposit too?
2.) Your software splits the money in cash balance and bonus balance. If you go to the cashier it tells you the exact sum you can withdraw and that you only would forfeit the bonus. I thought this information was right and thought i would only lose the bonus.
3.) Your bonus abuser argument: in my opinion it is OK not to process the withdrawal if it is made early - what is not OK is to take away winnings made. You could forfeit the bonus, recredit deposit and winnings to the casino account and tell the people to meet the wagering requirements. To forfeit winnings, made with own money, with money the people risked, is simply not OK.
4.) Your terms aren´t that explicit - in fact i find them to be very contradictory and you changed them recently. As i said earlier what your software says is very explicit: you can withdraw your cash balance - your bonus balance will be forfeited.

Again: i accept that you want the people to meet their obligations - but you could force that on a more balanced way. Why did you take away the winnings, why didn´t you only take away the bonus when you decided not to process the withdrawal and refunded the account?

Last point: i read the terms, but obviously i didn´t understand them correctly and as i said - what your software tells is contradictory to the terms. I made a fault, yes.

It would be fair if you would refund my account with the amount that was in there before i made the fault and let me honour your terms and conditions.

BR,

and another mail i sent him shortly thereafter

Hi Joshua,


could you please answer the different questions and statements i made i little bit more detailed?

And, as a small addition and to explain more detailed what i mean when i say that your terms are "contradictory":

"However, if you have opted in for the bonus, you will be unable to withdraw any amount from your account until you've either met the wagering requirements or played through the bonus."

This is in this moment still a part of your terms and i think i today would still have problems to understand them in the way you want them to be understood.

I really think it would be a matter of fairness to "restore" the situation that existed before i cashed out in good faith...


Thank you!

I accept that my situation is different from the situation bash_2357 was in but i am still very interested in everybodys point of view - even if you don´t share mine.

Thank you!