Prime Casino remove my money from Neteller!

[bash_2357]

Deleted

[bash_2357]

Josh, Can you explain why you didn't even have the courtesy to explain to players that you had taken money from their neteller accounts? This is underhand.

Also, a reasonable casino would allow us to complete the wagering not to void all winnings. I am prepared to do this.

There is little doubt that this negative publicity is not going to help Prime. I URGE you to reconsider for the sake of probably a few hundred pounss ( which will be the case after you make me wager it !).

I would really like to know what CM's view on this is?

[vinylweatherman]

Originally Posted by PrimeCasino

I'm sorry to hear that some of you are upset about the change in our terms and conditions. Regarding withdrawals from Neteller accounts "after the fact", these payments should never have been made in the first place according to the terms and conditions. I'm sorry that you saw an initial payout but we simply do not allow withdrawals at all until the B*30 is met. Again, I'm sorry if this seems unreasonable but these are the terms and had you deposited prior to these terms taking effect, this situation would not apply to you. In addition, we're not pioneers in this respect either as Playtech seems to generally follow this rule as well. In addition, their requirements are twice as hard to meet.

Again, I apologize for this situation but assuming we're "like every other MGS Casino" is not something I feel we should be responsible for. There are some players from this very forum who will attest to how liberal I am with money but if you haven't read the T&C's, that is really your responsibility. Ultimately, I would like to make it physically impossible to withdraw from the Casino until the wagering requirements are met but as of this moment, it's not possible in the software.

I appreciate that many of you are familiar with the standard Microgaming terms and conditions but you must understand, just because most MGS Casinos follow certain protocols, this does not necessarily mean that we are obligated to do the same.

The bottom line here is quite simple. For those of you who have deposited under the previous T&C's, you have already been able to withdraw and this has not affected you at all. For those of you who deposited afterwards and withdrew prior to meeting your requirements, we have refunded your initial deposit less your bonus and winnings.

I feel that this is more than fair and I apologize to those of you who feel otherwise.

The really big issue here is taking the money out of Neteller without the permission of the player. Had the withdrawals simply been denied at audit, this would have been a standard dispute. The making of the payment was YOUR mistake, as also was the failure to implement the rule change properly such that the bonus system trapped an invalid withdrawal due to remaining WR.
You have set an extremely bad precendent, in effect, funds in Neteller are not safe, any casino, if they feel like it, can decide that they didn't want to make the payment after all and get it back from Neteller.
This could have been far worse, what if in the intervening fortnight the player had deposited the money into another casino and lost it, where would they be then.
This action could well be illegal under UK law, as you did not follow a proper dispute resolution procedure, but effectively just snached the money back.
Under UK law, parties that dispute whether or not a sum of money belongs to the other has to file a dispute if no resolution can be reached between the parties. For this sum, the dispute would be taken to the small claims court.
Another legal point is that under UK law gambling debt is not enforcible, and this could mean that the forcible recovery of a gambling related sum from one party would be illegal.
Neteller could be in trouble for allowing this, since this is against their policy of not allowing chargebacks in disputes. If you told Neteller this was an error, this was a lie, this is a dispute over terms and conditions.

Your terms do not carry an expiry date, so what matters is when this player READ these terms, you cannot expect player to check every single day just because they might have changed, many believe that periodic checks are a reasonable requirement, such as monthly. If changes are made routinely, or even considered, the terms should allow for this by using a rolling monthly offer expiring at the end of the month. The next month could see the offer renewed under existing terms, or the terms changed, but the expiry date informs the player how long the terms they have read are valid for, and if they deposit after this, they should know to recheck the latest set of terms.

You are not like any other MGS casino, no other would dream of taking funds out of players Neteller accounts, they would take the hit for their own silly errors, as they would expect players to take the hit if THEY make a silly error. Do NOT expect players to be absolutely perfect, yet ask forgivness for a silly mistake on your part.
From the evidence posted, it certainly does not look like a case of fraud, or an attempt to abuse a bonus by mathematical trickery (the one bet with entire bankroll scenario). This was one damn lucky hit at Deuces Wild, allowed under the terms, followed by the players belief that the terms had not changed since he last read them, supported by the fact that the banking page let the withdrawal through, followed by your audit team letting it through, and it then remaining a further fortnight in Neteller.
This is known as "responsible gambling", withdrawing after an unexpected big hit, and it is not as if any bonus money escaped, this was removed on the way out.

Microgaming introduced this new bonus system to PREVENT these types of issue from happening. Microgaming have to rely on operators using their part of the software properly, or this system will be just as bad as any other system. The end result is that players will not trust any bonuses offered by casinos, and that is your main marketing tool up the spout.
There are already numerous players who advise not to take bonuses because of the risk of not getting paid, and how are these players to be attracted to a new casino. I have looked at the Prime website and the attraction is, well, nothing unless you want the SUB, no tournaments, no draws, no competitions, no newsletters, not worth playing compared to other casinos that offer such events to regular players.

It now seems that Prime are taking back a number of payments from players Neteller accounts, I hope they are ready for the flak.

As for it not possible to prevent withdrawals if WR are not met, this is not the players problem is it, it is an issue with MG needing to cater for the needs of it's customers. MG never intended EZBonus to work like this, so why have operators not made a formal request as soon as they saw this oversight, why wait till now (this applies to other MGs who tried this rule change, and who had ample time to request it be properly implemented as a feature). If the audit department at Prime were not asleep at the wheel, the payments would have been halted there, and a reputable casino would have refunded them to the players accounts and informed them that terms had recently been changed, but that it had proved impossible to implement the change in the banking screen. The MG banking screen also shows T & C for the bonus system, and where casinos have made this change to the MG standard, these terms are not correct, but are nevertheless still displayed as current to the player who wishes to double check (not many do at this stage though).

I still cannot get over how it is even possible to raid Neteller accounts after the fact like this. It's a chargeback, nothing more. The floodgates have opened, and it will be damn hard to shut them now.

Neteller = not as safe as we once believed.
Chargeback = a valid way of resolving a dispute in our favour if it is the other party that currently holds the disputed funds.

Worse, this Neteller "chargeback" was the FIRST option employed, not the last. Where was "service to the customer". Looks like "b*****d won, and we cocked up by paying, get the money back at any cost to reputation & sod negotiating in a reasonable manner and pointing out how we made an error and ask for understanding"

This is why I am treating this topic in such a hard-nosed manner with respect to the casino, this is how they saw fit to deal with this player's possible mistake (player disputes terms had changed at time of deposit, yet to be proven either way).

[bash_2357]

Many thanks for the comprehensive and supportive argument. I only wish i was half as articulate in writing!

Also, neteller did tell me that Prime told them that account had been credited in error/wrong account credited. They have that in writing.

[Mousey]

Originally Posted by PrimeCasino

I'm sorry to hear that some of you are upset about the change in our terms and conditions. Regarding withdrawals from Neteller accounts "after the fact", these payments should never have been made in the first place according to the terms and conditions. I'm sorry that you saw an initial payout but we simply do not allow withdrawals at all until the B*30 is met. Again, I'm sorry if this seems unreasonable but these are the terms and had you deposited prior to these terms taking effect, this situation would not apply to you. In addition, we're not pioneers in this respect either as Playtech seems to generally follow this rule as well. In addition, their requirements are twice as hard to meet.

Again, I apologize for this situation but assuming we're "like every other MGS Casino" is not something I feel we should be responsible for. There are some players from this very forum who will attest to how liberal I am with money but if you haven't read the T&C's, that is really your responsibility. Ultimately, I would like to make it physically impossible to withdraw from the Casino until the wagering requirements are met but as of this moment, it's not possible in the software.

I appreciate that many of you are familiar with the standard Microgaming terms and conditions but you must understand, just because most MGS Casinos follow certain protocols, this does not necessarily mean that we are obligated to do the same.

The bottom line here is quite simple. For those of you who have deposited under the previous T&C's, you have already been able to withdraw and this has not affected you at all. For those of you who deposited afterwards and withdrew prior to meeting your requirements, we have refunded your initial deposit less your bonus and winnings.

I feel that this is more than fair and I apologize to those of you who feel otherwise.

The perversion of the standard MG EZBonus system is the least of my concerns. What I find astonishing is (to quote the original poster):

Two weeks later, Neteller inform me that Prime taken the money back from my neteller account. No word from the casino.

Unheard of, and totally off the wall. I see fault with both NETeller and the casino. Was it indeed 2 weeks later that the funds were retrieved from the player's account?? Did the casino try to contact the player by telephone and email before doing this? As pointed by Vinyl... what if the player had already spent that money?


If the player did indeed deposit after the change in T&C, why did he receive the cashout at all. Ok... let's say the casino goofed. So... it took 2 weeks to find it out -- after the player was paid? Payouts are not audited -- especially new players? And then, you reclaim the funds from his NETeller. Unacceptable.

I do appreciate that PrimeCasino has registered here and taken the time to address concerns, but greater care must be taken by the casino to see that payouts are done in the proper manner, in the proper amount, and (for the love of pete!) stay out of players' NETeller accounts!

[bash_2357]

Originally Posted by Mousey

The perversion of the standard MG EZBonus system is the least of my concerns. What I find astonishing is (to quote the original poster): Unheard of, and totally off the wall. I see fault with both NETeller and the casino. Was it indeed 2 weeks later that the funds were retrieved from the player's account?? Did the casino try to contact the player by telephone and email before doing this? As pointed by Vinyl... what if the player had already spent that money?

:

It was 13 days from the deposit that the funds were removed from my neteller account. I can prove with my statement if they is any dispute.
No contact from the casino at any stage. I asked neteller what if i had spent the money and they said Prime would not have got it then! I have asked for some compensation from Neteller but no luck there. Money is not safe in Neteller.

[XXLClubCasino]

Originally Posted by PrimeCasino

I'm sorry to hear that some of you are upset about the change in our terms and conditions. Regarding withdrawals from Neteller accounts "after the fact", these payments should never have been made in the first place according to the terms and conditions. I'm sorry that you saw an initial payout but we simply do not allow withdrawals at all until the B*30 is met. Again, I'm sorry if this seems unreasonable but these are the terms and had you deposited prior to these terms taking effect, this situation would not apply to you. In addition, we're not pioneers in this respect either as Playtech seems to generally follow this rule as well. In addition, their requirements are twice as hard to meet.

Again, I apologize for this situation but assuming we're "like every other MGS Casino" is not something I feel we should be responsible for. There are some players from this very forum who will attest to how liberal I am with money but if you haven't read the T&C's, that is really your responsibility. Ultimately, I would like to make it physically impossible to withdraw from the Casino until the wagering requirements are met but as of this moment, it's not possible in the software.

I appreciate that many of you are familiar with the standard Microgaming terms and conditions but you must understand, just because most MGS Casinos follow certain protocols, this does not necessarily mean that we are obligated to do the same.

The bottom line here is quite simple. For those of you who have deposited under the previous T&C's, you have already been able to withdraw and this has not affected you at all. For those of you who deposited afterwards and withdrew prior to meeting your requirements, we have refunded your initial deposit less your bonus and winnings.

I feel that this is more than fair and I apologize to those of you who feel otherwise.

What does Playtech has to do with your case?!

I truly believe that most Playtech casinos do not have a 30x bonus wagering requirement but more in the range of 8-20 x B+D.

Also most "fair/honest" casinos would give the player the opportunity to meet his WR and not simply cut his winnings and refund the deposit. In my humble opinion this is a really "unfair" way to solve this issue, especially knowing that your audit/finance team mess up to do their work properly and control that the WR was met before proceeding the player's withdrawal.

[cyprean]

Originally Posted by XXLClubCasino

What does Playtech has to do with your case?!

I truly believe that most Playtech casinos do not have a 30x bonus wagering requirement but more in the range of 8-20 x B+D.

Also most "fair/honest" casinos would give the player the opportunity to meet his WR and not simply cut his winnings and refund the deposit. In my humble opinion this is a really "unfair" way to solve this issue, especially knowing that your audit/finance team mess up to do their work properly and control that the WR was met before proceeding the player's withdrawal.

Well said.

[uungy]

Originally Posted by XXLClubCasino

What does Playtech has to do with your case?!

I truly believe that most Playtech casinos do not have a 30x bonus wagering requirement but more in the range of 8-20 x B+D.

Also most "fair/honest" casinos would give the player the opportunity to meet his WR and not simply cut his winnings and refund the deposit. In my humble opinion this is a really "unfair" way to solve this issue, especially knowing that your audit/finance team mess up to do their work properly and control that the WR was met before proceeding the player's withdrawal.

With all your respect you arent the best to qualify to disagree in regards to breaking terms and conditions

You are just as useless in regards to responding, and the similar

besides you have caps on wothdrawals, which you dont notify your players about

[Joda]

"Ultimately, I would like to make it physically impossible to withdraw from the Casino until the wagering requirements are met but as of this moment, it's not possible in the software."

Josh, if this is the ideal for you then why not return all of bash's money to his account and let him complete the wagering? Clearly the winnings could never be void if this was the case.

You may not be able to change the way the software works but you do have the authority to restore his balance. The software is not forcing you to void the winnings. It is nonsense to make the above statement if you are not prepared to return the money in order for the wagering requirements to be satisfied.