Prime Casino remove my money from Neteller!

[spearmaster]

This cant be true.

Spearmaster has been extremely aggressive in demanding respect as a totally independent "voice of reason" (see English Harbour thread among many others).

That he is in fact an employee or in the pay of a casino but has failed to ever mention it just seems bizarre.

That would mean he is forcefully opinionating on threads when the casino in question might well be paying him money.

I think, in fairness to Spearmaster, he would like to have his name cleared as this would surely be the last straw as far as his remaining credibilty goes.

I don't work for a casino, but as of November I have been working for Playtech - and this is known to many people here as they would have my name card - this includes operators and affiliates and players. This fact was never hidden but not otherwise mentioned here because - and you can check the past posts - as Spearmaster I post in my private capacity and not as a representative of Playtech.

Naturally, this is why I resigned as a moderator at the end of October so that I would not compromise the integrity of the forum.

I do not get paid by any casino for any reason whatsoever at this time and have not since I joined the company. And my position will not change with regards to being a 'voice of reason' even if you think otherwise - my objective is to work from within in improving Playtech's offerings and services to operators, affiliates and players.

This post is just to clear the air. Any future postings by me here at Casinomeister will remain my own personal opinion as it has since I joined here. And I cannot and will not respond to any post in an official capacity at any time.

[Lunkan]

Mohammed and Anders

how are you two doing on the wager requirments?
id sure like to see you both hit big and get to keep the money for real!!
good luck

I have now completed my wagering and has now requested a cash-out of about $100 more than was originally taken from my Neteller account. Didn't really hit it big but it didn't turn out bad either. I will at least post once more in this thread when the money hits my Neteller account.

[TravelMaxx]

4. I have not paid out Jens because she blatantly broke our T&C's, made one bet, and cashed out. This is classic promo abuse and our terms ecist to protect us from just this kind of player. Why should Jens be the only player to become an exception to this rule? Though my decision here was solely based on breaking the T&C's, I'm even less inclined to make an exception since she decided to drag her issue into an angry mob in the hopes you'd all agree with her by default. Lastly, assuming our terms are like every other MGS Casino is a ridiculous excuse for not reading them. I notice how now you have our terms under a microscope but had you read them in the first place, we wouldn't be in this situation. My answer is no and it's final.

That what you write here proofs your character best - excuse me but how impertinently is that.
If it is promo abuse to try to win money out of a promotion what are you doing? Customer abuse?

If i had understood your terms correctly i could have easily bet 1 Euro on red at french roulette (6000 rounds) and would have , according to the Wizard of Odds, lost less than i lost when i decided to drop the bonus. I think that proves best that i am not lying when i say that i understood your terms wrong. And in my opinion the main reason for this is, that you aren´t able to write propper terms.

I'm even less inclined to make an exception since she decided to drag her issue into an angry mob in the hopes you'd all agree with her by default.

Ridiculous.

Who is the angry mob? The casinomeister members?

The only reason i entered this thread is, that you did, with no word, responded to my arguments - neither you did in the mails i sent you first nor you did here.

I can´t and won´t say more.

Your attitude is intolerable.

My last word in this thread is, that i suggest to donate the money that were in my account before i made this mistake to UNICEF as i don´t want you to make profit out of the fact that i didn´t (and still don´t) understand your terms. This donation would, of course, include my deposit of 100 Euro. I would spend it to Unicef, send Casinomeister a proof and after that you could refund it to my Neteller.

It´s on you whether you accept this suggestion or not and whether it would include the bonus money or not.

I am just before my exams and really spent a lot of energy and time on it and only want to bring it to an acceptable end for both of us.

[hunterduke]

I have now completed my wagering and has now requested a cash-out of about $100 more than was originally taken from my Neteller account. Didn't really hit it big but it didn't turn out bad either. I will at least post once more in this thread when the money hits my Neteller account.

awesome!!
im glad it worked out for you in the end

[henryVIII]

Naturally, this is why I resigned as a moderator at the end of October so that I would not compromise the integrity of the forum.

News to me spearmaster.

If I remember correctly you were the "voice of reason" during the English Harbour shame and you accused anyone who doubted your integrity (even in the slightest) as "spewing venom" and relentlessly wailed the fact that noone believed you were being unbiased. You even insisted such people (which turned out to be the large majority) were banned from this forum for not believing you were being independent and honest.

Such was the illogicalness of your posts that a few posters actaully accused you of being in the pay of the casino.

But, no, you were the "independent" person of impeccible character who was "examining" English harbours cheating software (because it all had to be hush hush for some reason).

Then, in the midst of this, you told us you were quitting looking at the software and being a mod because (for very obvious reasons) no one believed you.

And now, shock horror, you say you quit being a mod and "totally independently" examing a cheating casino's software because ... you had just been put on the payroll of a casino software company!!!

And you kept this all to yourself all this time.

Shameful. You do this forum no credit in an otherwise murky enough industry.

NB The English harbour thread where a software was proved to be cheating players was locked despite it being the most viewed (by a country mile) because, officially, it was now boring.

[spearmaster]

And now, shock horror, you say you quit being a mod and "totally independently" examing a cheating casino's software because ... you had just been put on the payroll of a casino software company!!!

And you kept this all to yourself all this time.

Oh, I'd say probably over 100 members of the forum knew this fact - yet didn't think much of it, except you - and Josh, who thought he was going to reveal a deep, dark "secret" that no one knew of (while those in the know who watched were snickering). And if it was such a secret, why would I be answering your question in the first place?

I have nothing to hide, never have, never will. Anyone else out there with a deep, dark secret about Spearmaster please feel free to join in the fray.

And to everyone who knew - members or not, supporters, detractors (one who actually found out later and sent his regards), thanks for keeping my "secret"

[Da_Gambla]

As much as I would like to sit here all day long each day and debate the morality of my decisions, it's simply not practical. The origin of this thread came from two players who complained their funds were removed from their Neteller accounts. This money was never meant to be credited in the first place but I did the right thing and put it back into their Casino account which would have been the default situation had our software supported our T&C's.

I can't help but feel that I'm bearing the brunt of your anger regarding things many have done before me and as much as I've tried to appease the lot of you, it's in the end, impossible to please everyone. As important as these issues are, this thread is taking up far too much of my time and since there is no governing body here other than CM, I'm forced to leave this in his capable hands.

1. I have told you that I will not initiate Neteller chargebacks in the future for any reason other than fraud. I will not change our T&C's to restrict our ability to do this. If you're not defrauding our Casino, you have nothing to worry about. Fraud = multiple accounts, using other people's accounts, etc. If I need to define Fraud for you then we have a much larger problem here.

2. I have put the players' money back into their Casino account and allowed them to play out their wagering requirements. Perhaps Mohammed and Anders aren't doing backflips over this but they are happy with the resolution and have said so in the thread. What more would like me to do exactly?

3. I have agreed to date our T&C's and to put a note on our index page notifying when recent changes have been made with a link to the new terms. I will not make this a massive road-sign on the index page though. It will sit around where the No-US Players and the Powered by Microgaming logos are. If this is unnaceptable to you I'm sorry but it's more than anyone else is doing.

4. I have not paid out Jens because she blatantly broke our T&C's, made one bet, and cashed out. This is classic promo abuse and our terms ecist to protect us from just this kind of player. Why should Jens be the only player to become an exception to this rule? Though my decision here was solely based on breaking the T&C's, I'm even less inclined to make an exception since she decided to drag her issue into an angry mob in the hopes you'd all agree with her by default. Lastly, assuming our terms are like every other MGS Casino is a ridiculous excuse for not reading them. I notice how now you have our terms under a microscope but had you read them in the first place, we wouldn't be in this situation. My answer is no and it's final.

5. Regarding downloading a casino first and then registering several days later, I'm sorry but that's ridiculous. It's common sense that before you deposit, you should read the terms and conditions. I think it's a real stretch to think that someone would download our software, spend the time studying our T&C's, but then not even registering until several days after. I feel I've done enough to protect the players' interests if the terms are valid at the time of fun player registration. I am not going to email every fun player about changes to the terms. Also, I have a fun account with at least 20 Casinos and none of them have ever done this either. Not only that but none of them as far as I have seen are notifying people of T&C changes anywhere on the site. Nevermind the index page.

This has gone on long enough. Some of you have made some very good points and suggestions that I am going to enact. However, I am not going to spend my time each day going through this thread and becoming a doormat for the Casino industry. I think it's time for CM to step in here and decide what he thinks should be done. We're an accredited Casino here and the actions I've taken are the final actions that will be taken in this issue. If he feels that we shouldn't be accredited after this, so be it. My decisions are final and that is literally the end of this discussion. Again, I appreciate all the civilized input I've received and your suggestions will be enacted next week.

Thanks and good luck,

Josh.

Hi Josh -

I'm Keith, the guy who you have consistantly avoided addressing directly.

I'm sorry that this will be your last post on this issue, as it's clear this issue demands further investigation and discussion. I'm also always respectful towards someone, who in the face of further VALID criticism, packs up his marbles and runs home.

Angry mob? Curiously, this thread, which certainly had all of the fuel necessary for an extremely ugly exchange, remained quite respectful. Because you don't appreciate our unwillingness to swallow your bottomline, you want to label us a mob? If you remove the TravelMaxx hijack and the Spearmaster sidebar, this has been an extremely orderly and respectful exchange of ideas and information (in comparison with what can happen around here).

Your accreditation here is nothing more than text on a webpage. After you are accredited, it is up to you and your employees to maintain a level of dignity that this community agrees is a bit above the rest. Bryan can give you the chance up front, but ultimately you will be judged by what's posted in this community. If you have no issues posted, it can be assumed that you are doing good business and a player browsing this community might feel very comfortable making a deposit with your casino. On the other hand, a thread like this can easily (and mostly likely will) null and void the accreditation provided in text. Sorry to tell you that life is about "what have you done for us lately?". Don't kill the messenger here... it's how it is, and I just live in this world and go by the same rules.

Your integrity, in my view (and I know that matters not to you, but I thought I would recognize that up front), is starting to dwindle quite rapidly. I have not appreciated TravelMaxx's attempt to piggy-back an issue onto this one, but now likewise, you have attempted to attach the Neteller issue onto other issues of T&C's dating and ease of access. You have used the player's "thanks" for fixing those things as a vehicle to attach this "not unless it's approved by my desk" Neteller issue. As GM and a few others tried to make it clear that your "solution" there was not accetable, you started getting angry and are now going to tantrum off into the sunset. That speaks volumes about you as a person and a casino manager.

Let me point out that, unless I missed a response somewhere, not one single member of this community has "approved" of your solution to only raid a Neteller account if it meets your personal approval." Not a single one.

You were given an opportunity. Let me explain:

What has been revealed in this thread is something that will be investigated. Ultimately, one of two things will happen here. Either it will come to light that you lied to Neteller (and a vendor actually does need to cite a reason for a chargeback), or this flaw in Neteller will be exposed and fixed. It does not matter which of these two things comes to pass, the ultimate outcome will be that this hole will get patched, and even if you wanted to do this in the future, you will not be able to.

So you have been given the opportuniy here to STOP doing this for any reason other than 2x mistaken funding, and recognize that this will not be allowed in the future. By continually insisting you want to remain able to raid a Neteller account if you feel it warrants it, you are just being overbearing and obnoxiously pompous for no gain in the long run.

So I guess you passed on that opportunity, and have revealed that you are the typical casino manager who feels that you are the judge, jury and executioner, and that we are all peasants beneath you. You can buy out a couple of players and announce that they are happy, but unfortunately we are a bit smarter than to fall for that. I think we all feel very comfortable that, after you violated their respective personal e-Wallets and once they are done with their WR, these two players will cashout and be long gone, never to do business with you again. That's the thing about attempting to buy loyalty and PR, it is short-lived and useless. I do hope a couple of grand (well, one was for 1k, not sure what the other one was worth) was worth the 10 mins of PR it bought you.

On the level of obstinance that you have displayed, I would recommend that any current clients of Prime close their account and move their business elsewhere. I would also recommend to anyone that they NOT open a new account with Prime casino. This recommendation is my opinion, and my opinion alone, based on the answers you have provided to us in this very thread, as well as the answers you refused to provide.

Good day sir,
- Keith

[Pinababy69]

1. I have told you that I will not initiate Neteller chargebacks in the future for any reason other than fraud. I will not change our T&C's to restrict our ability to do this. If you're not defrauding our Casino, you have nothing to worry about. Fraud = multiple accounts, using other people's accounts, etc. If I need to define Fraud for you then we have a much larger problem here.

As GM and a few others tried to make it clear that your "solution" there was not accetable, you started getting angry and are now going to tantrum off into the sunset. That speaks volumes about you as a person and a casino manager.

Let me point out that, unless I missed a response somewhere, not one single member of this community has "approved" of your solution to only raid a Neteller account if it meets your personal approval." Not a single one.

Hey D_G, the part of the quote I highlighted above I thought addressed yours (and others) question/concern re: the Neteller issue? Maybe we are perceiving it differently? Don't take this to mean that I approve of what happened with the players having their money taken back from Neteller 2 weeks after the fact, because I don't. I'm just pointing out that I thought Josh answered the question.

As to his participation in this thread, at least he made an effort to participate, which is more than some do. Even if you don't approve of his posts and/or solutions, he put forth an effort. There are many reps on here who won't post publicly, ever. They'll communicate through PM, or through Bryan, but that's it. Again, just an observation.

I wish more would.

[hunterduke]

all i ever wanted to know was what prime would have done if the money was not available in their neteller accounts...that question was never answered so i guess ill have to keep wondering

[Da_Gambla]

Hey D_G, the part of the quote I highlighted above I thought addressed yours (and others) question/concern re: the Neteller issue? Maybe we are perceiving it differently? Don't take this to mean that I approve of what happened with the players having their money taken back from Neteller 2 weeks after the fact, because I don't. I'm just pointing out that I thought Josh answered the question.

As to his participation in this thread, at least he made an effort to participate, which is more than some do. Even if you don't approve of his posts and/or solutions, he put forth an effort. There are many reps on here who won't post publicly, ever. They'll communicate through PM, or through Bryan, but that's it. Again, just an observation.

I wish more would.

Pina, it is not acceptable that he won't put it into writing. That's where our perception differs, is all. He says that we will "just have to trust his decisions", and I don't accept that. I haven't heard that anybody does.

Josh has said that he will not raid a Neteller account unless fraud is involved. GrandMaster pointed out that Josh is not an independant arbitor or unbiased judge, so therefore how would this be fair? That's when Josh decided to post his "final" post.

Answer this, Pina... because maybe my mind can change if I understand how someone else views it. If Josh is promising NEVER to do this again, then why will he NOT put it in writing? Why do we, the players, have to TRUST HIM on word alone? If this is the case, we can just throw out ALL T&C's as they are all unnecessary. All casino managers should just decide on a whim for or against any particular issue and it's over.

I am very cautious and suspicious of anyone that will agree to something verbally, but REFUSES to add it in writing.

I will not recommend this casino in any shape or form until it is in writing.

- Keith