Prime Casino remove my money from Neteller!

[KasinoKing]

Vinylweatherman,

Listen, I really appreciate your argument here but it is very difficult to inform players that haven't even registered as fun players, that our T&C's have changed. However, I see the problem and have figured out a way we can deal with this problem. On the index page, the next time I change the terms, I will write some text near the copywrite information that says something like: Our T&C's have changed recently. Please click here to read them.

How do you would you feel about me doing that and then dating each of the T&C's as they're changed. It's obvious this won't be the last time they are changed since there are obviously some serious issues with them that need to be resolved.

However, this player did register their fun account well before the terms changed and it's the player's responsibility to read the terms at the time of initial signup. Having said that, I find it very hard to believe that a player would come to our site, read the terms, and then not even download the software until several days after. Jens is also not claiming that she assumed the terms were the old one, only that she assumed that we were on the same ClearPlay policy as other MGS Casinos. I really don't feel I should be held responsible for what people assume.

What do you think?

Josh.

1. Dating T&C's
Excellent idea. If only ALL casinos would do that I'm sure it would save a huge amount of problems.
It would also save me one hell of a lot of time when I update my website. Last month I re-checked all the T&C's of all 100+ casinos on my site to make sure I have the current details.
Can you even imagine how tedious, boring, time-consuming & annoying that was?

2. Delay between download & registering.
I have done this regularly. Downloading an MG casino is a real ball-ache so I often do it well in advance of actually signing up. I have at least 3 such casinos on my PC right now, which have been there over 6-weeks (one has been there over a year!).
However, you are totally correct and as I keep banging on about; players MUST check, and preferably record, the current T&C's on the day they make their deposit.
It's just common sense and again, it can avoid grief later.

Just my 2c... KK

[PrimeCasino]

Hi Grandmaster,

I'm simply not going to do it again. However, I have no intention of changing the t&c's to this effect because there are many reasons why we would want to in the case of Fraud for example. In addition, just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean that we're the only Casino who has done this. I agree that we shouldn't have pulled the funds but they weren't supposed to be there to begin with. As a fair compromise as agreed to by the players, as you've seen, I've deposited the said funds back into their Casino account and in one case, a little more than they were supposed to get.

In answer to your second question. eCogra has approved both our recent T&C's, our Casino and our payout rating. We have been provided with approval from eCogra but we are only able to apply the seal at the end of this month.

Josh.

How about simply never doing it again?

How would you feel if a player charged back his credit card deposit at Prime Casino?

Another question: why is there a reference to ecogra at the end of the T&C, you are not ecogra approved?

[PrimeCasino]

No.

Please stop trying to squeeze your issue into this thread which is of a completely different nature.

"I didn´t realize that the terms changed. In fact i still don´t know what were the changes made. You told me, that you made some and i accepted that."

What don't you understand about your situation? There were no changes to the terms since our relationship began. These terms do not apply to you as they didn't exist when you first registered. Please stop asking me to credit your Casino because my decision is final.

Also, the money was never put into your Neteller account to begin with so your issue has nothing to do with this thread whatsoever. I'm sorry if I'm beginning to get aggravated but I am. Mohammed and Anders had a legitimate grievance as we should never have removed the money from their Neteller account.

I feel as if you're taking advantage of the situation and trying to get a bunch of people who are angry for a different reason on your side. I'm sorry but I'm sticking to my guns in your case.

Josh.

No.

I didn´t realize that the terms changed. In fact i still don´t know what were the changes made. You told me, that you made some and i accepted that.

And yes, my interpretation of your terms were that i could withdraw my cash balance at any point and as i said - your terms still are everything but clear, you obviously realized that yourself:



What makes me angry is that you realize that there are some serious issues with them but only see my fault and not your own.

You have the opportunity to recredit not only my deposit but also my winnings and the bonus to my account and give me a chance to satisfy your requirements. To void my winning is strongest possible intervention especially because it were your terms and your cashier that were (and are) unclear and caused this situation.

[PrimeCasino]

KasinoKing,

So be it then . As of Tuesday when I get into the office, I will have the T&C changes dated and a small note on the index page advising new players that the T&C's have recently changed... click here to view them.

Now, I've credited the players' Casino account, I'm going to change the website so the T&C changes are easy to see and I've told the support staff that once a Neteller payment has been issued, they must ask me before they intitiate a chargeback. The only future case where I will allow support to attempt a chargeback is if a Player has obviously defrauded the Casino. In all honesty, we haven't had a case like this yet and I don't imagine we'll see too many.

Having said that, if this were to happen again and I'm telling you that it won't, you're free to hold me personally responsible as I will have to approve any reversals from now on.

I hope you guys are happy with this,

Josh.

1. Dating T&C's
Excellent idea. If only ALL casinos would do that I'm sure it would save a huge amount of problems.
It would also save me one hell of a lot of time when I update my website. Last month I re-checked all the T&C's of all 100+ casinos on my site to make sure I have the current details.
Can you even imagine how tedious, boring, time-consuming & annoying that was?

2. Delay between download & registering.
I have done this regularly. Downloading an MG casino is a real ball-ache so I often do it well in advance of actually signing up. I have at least 3 such casinos on my PC right now, which have been there over 6-weeks (one has been there over a year!).
However, you are totally correct and as I keep banging on about; players MUST check, and preferably record, the current T&C's on the day they make their deposit.
It's just common sense and again, it can avoid grief later.

Just my 2c... KK

[elscrabinda]

I've asked Neteller management to respond to this as personally I'm terrified. The CSR on livechat insisted that the situation could not have happened and said that if the casino did act in this way then it was illegal but obviously you can no more trust neteller livehelp than a casino one!

Hopefully they will respond soon, though she did insist that it wasn't normally neteller's policy to comment on forums.

[GrandMaster]

I'm simply not going to do it again. However, I have no intention of changing the t&c's to this effect because there are many reasons why we would want to in the case of Fraud for example. In addition, just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean that we're the only Casino who has done this.

Who decides what constitutes fraud? You are not an independent arbiter in this matter. Unfortunately, some casinos like to confuse the issues of fraud and advantage play.

Interestingly, I read of a case somewhere here where a player was paid twice by mistake, and the casino said that they would not be able to recover the money from Neteller and asked the player to deposit the amount in the casino.

[PrimeCasino]

As much as I would like to sit here all day long each day and debate the morality of my decisions, it's simply not practical. The origin of this thread came from two players who complained their funds were removed from their Neteller accounts. This money was never meant to be credited in the first place but I did the right thing and put it back into their Casino account which would have been the default situation had our software supported our T&C's.

I can't help but feel that I'm bearing the brunt of your anger regarding things many have done before me and as much as I've tried to appease the lot of you, it's in the end, impossible to please everyone. As important as these issues are, this thread is taking up far too much of my time and since there is no governing body here other than CM, I'm forced to leave this in his capable hands.

1. I have told you that I will not initiate Neteller chargebacks in the future for any reason other than fraud. I will not change our T&C's to restrict our ability to do this. If you're not defrauding our Casino, you have nothing to worry about. Fraud = multiple accounts, using other people's accounts, etc. If I need to define Fraud for you then we have a much larger problem here.

2. I have put the players' money back into their Casino account and allowed them to play out their wagering requirements. Perhaps Mohammed and Anders aren't doing backflips over this but they are happy with the resolution and have said so in the thread. What more would like me to do exactly?

3. I have agreed to date our T&C's and to put a note on our index page notifying when recent changes have been made with a link to the new terms. I will not make this a massive road-sign on the index page though. It will sit around where the No-US Players and the Powered by Microgaming logos are. If this is unnaceptable to you I'm sorry but it's more than anyone else is doing.

4. I have not paid out Jens because she blatantly broke our T&C's, made one bet, and cashed out. This is classic promo abuse and our terms ecist to protect us from just this kind of player. Why should Jens be the only player to become an exception to this rule? Though my decision here was solely based on breaking the T&C's, I'm even less inclined to make an exception since she decided to drag her issue into an angry mob in the hopes you'd all agree with her by default. Lastly, assuming our terms are like every other MGS Casino is a ridiculous excuse for not reading them. I notice how now you have our terms under a microscope but had you read them in the first place, we wouldn't be in this situation. My answer is no and it's final.

5. Regarding downloading a casino first and then registering several days later, I'm sorry but that's ridiculous. It's common sense that before you deposit, you should read the terms and conditions. I think it's a real stretch to think that someone would download our software, spend the time studying our T&C's, but then not even registering until several days after. I feel I've done enough to protect the players' interests if the terms are valid at the time of fun player registration. I am not going to email every fun player about changes to the terms. Also, I have a fun account with at least 20 Casinos and none of them have ever done this either. Not only that but none of them as far as I have seen are notifying people of T&C changes anywhere on the site. Nevermind the index page.

This has gone on long enough. Some of you have made some very good points and suggestions that I am going to enact. However, I am not going to spend my time each day going through this thread and becoming a doormat for the Casino industry. I think it's time for CM to step in here and decide what he thinks should be done. We're an accredited Casino here and the actions I've taken are the final actions that will be taken in this issue. If he feels that we shouldn't be accredited after this, so be it. My decisions are final and that is literally the end of this discussion. Again, I appreciate all the civilized input I've received and your suggestions will be enacted next week.

Thanks and good luck,

Josh.

[hunterduke]

Mohammed and Anders

how are you two doing on the wager requirments?
id sure like to see you both hit big and get to keep the money for real!!
good luck

[henryVIII]

Spear,

I know exactly who you are and who you work for so I find it even more entertaining that you're willing to dispute this fact with me. In addition, your first statement, "I hope you have the balls" hardly adds to your credibility and should make you even more embarassed given who you work for. Do they know that you're posting here? I'm curious because I wonder how they would feel about one of their employees acting like a 6 year old.

This cant be true.

Spearmaster has been extremely aggressive in demanding respect as a totally independent "voice of reason" (see English Harbour thread among many others).

That he is in fact an employee or in the pay of a casino but has failed to ever mention it just seems bizarre.

That would mean he is forcefully opinionating on threads when the casino in question might well be paying him money.

I think, in fairness to Spearmaster, he would like to have his name cleared as this would surely be the last straw as far as his remaining credibilty goes.

[Zoozie]

My advise for clearing the wagering requirements is actually playing TallyHo at 0.01$/line and then simply autospin for hours and hours (0.09$ pr/spin). TallyHo has 96% payout which is the best amoung the slots. I would only do this of course if I was 'way ahead' as you are on your bonus. If you need to do 2000$ wagering and you have 500$ in the account, you can live with loosing 80$ average by wagering the 2000$ with a 4% HE and you can cash out 420$. Much better than risking too much when you balance/bonus is big which for me is >8. Slots count for 100% while VP only count for 5% or 10% and BJ often only 2%. So clearing it with slots is one of the better choices and you will get low variance (near expected loss) by playing this minimum bet. If you have patient just pay 1 line(0.01$ total) and autospin for days.

Zoozie