Caution: XXL Club Casino Bonus Terms

[cerdikola]

Bets placed in the games Craps, Roulette (all sorts of Roulette), Blackjack (all sorts of blackjack), Video Poker (all sorts of Video Poker), Sic Bo, Poker Three and Baccarat does not fulfil the player's obligations with regard to the minimum wagering requirements.

The above mentioned restricted games CAN'T be played before fulfilling the wagering requirement or all winnings will be void.

Be careful, I read the T&C and I had no problems. But is just an advice, I know this casino is fair but this is a rogue trick to steal money...

Read KK's definition:

Prohibited Games

It’s equally important to check the bonus T&C's vary carefully for prohibited games. These are games where even if you play just one hand during your bonus qualification, the casino will confiscate all your bonus & winnings. This is a common trick among the less reputable places (the worst rogues may steal your deposit too!). The difference between prohibited & restricted games is that you are allowed to play restricted games with your bonus, but any bets you place do not count towards meeting WR. But prohibited games you must never play if there is any bonus money in your account.

Take note XXL Club rep...

[winbig]

How is it a "trick" if they list it clearly in their T&C?

It's only a trick if the player didn't read the T&C before playing...and if that's the case, it's their own fault...

[XXLClubCasino]

Hi Cerdikola

I do not share your view with regards to this T&C. We are suffering from giving bonus to advantage players and need to protect our business. As long as the excluded games are not played before meeting the WR you have nothing to worry about. Also note that in case this happen we practice either a total refund of the deposit to the player or based on his/her choice we leave the bonus and deposit to the player and ask to meet the WR without playing any listed restricted games.

The mathematical outcomes if we do not enforce these basics restrictions is devastating for the casinos and we would get bankrupt within a month!

Also note that any bonuses can be refused and a lot of players prefer it this way. We do then give other bonus incentives like kick backs based on the players lost.

The definition of gambling is risking some money to be able to win big. Due to the welcome bonus given to loyal players and abused by others the risk is completely covered by the casino and not by players which can't be call a FAIR situation.

We pay 1000's of dollars every months to player "abusing" the welcome bonus. This is integral part of the game going on between advantage players and casinos but without making any game restrictions we would not survive 1 month.

I hope I gave you a better view of our T&C and why we unfortunately have to restrict playing some games. I'm confident everyone can see it as a FAIR and do not feel being ripped of by our T&C.

Any opinion is welcome and I would love to hear other players view on the subject.

[cerdikola]

Originally Posted by winbig

How is it a "trick" if they list it clearly in their T&C?

It's only a trick if the player didn't read the T&C before playing...and if that's the case, it's their own fault...

That not happens in most fair casinos

[vinylweatherman]

Originally Posted by XXLClubCasino

Hi Cerdikola

I do not share your view with regards to this T&C. We are suffering from giving bonus to advantage players and need to protect our business. As long as the excluded games are not played before meeting the WR you have nothing to worry about. Also note that in case this happen we practice either a total refund of the deposit to the player or based on his/her choice we leave the bonus and deposit to the player and ask to meet the WR without playing any listed restricted games.

The mathematical outcomes if we do not enforce these basics restrictions is devastating for the casinos and we would get bankrupt within a month!

Also note that any bonuses can be refused and a lot of players prefer it this way. We do then give other bonus incentives like kick backs based on the players lost.

The definition of gambling is risking some money to be able to win big. Due to the welcome bonus given to loyal players and abused by others the risk is completely covered by the casino and not by players which can't be call a FAIR situation.

We pay 1000's of dollars every months to player "abusing" the welcome bonus. This is integral part of the game going on between advantage players and casinos but without making any game restrictions we would not survive 1 month.

I hope I gave you a better view of our T&C and why we unfortunately have to restrict playing some games. I'm confident everyone can see it as a FAIR and do not feel being ripped of by our T&C.

Any opinion is welcome and I would love to hear other players view on the subject.

Prohibiting certain games is fair, however not saying so PLAINLY is trickery, and is what gets casinos a bad name. Where terms state games do not contribite towards meeting WR, they mean just that, play on the games has a 0% weighting, but can still be played as part of the casino experience.
If play on certain games is not wanted at all, then the term should be absolutely clear on the matter, and not open to argument. It should state something along the lines of "ANY play on <...list of games> is PROHIBITED until such time as the full WR has been completed on eligible games". This should be followed by an outline of the consequences, such as the account being locked and deposits returned.

One further problem is that the restrictions are so wide in this case that they protect far beyond what is necessary in the way of 50/50 chance games and big starting bets, by including such games as Poker three, where although big wins are possible, the chances of hitting them are around 1 in 400 rather than 1 in 2. Placing your entire bankroll on the pair plus of Poker three is hardly going to be a worthwhile "abuse" play unless the "abuser" can do this at many hundreds of casinos, or casino accounts.
Such lengthy restrictions actually puts me off, as it makes the casino look like they really don't want to give any chance of winning from the first deposit bonus, and may well "invent something" when a player manages to pull something out of the proverbial hat on an allowed game! I would really only consider playing slots with a bonus when faced with such terms, and if I didn't think much of the slots I would not even bother.

[XXLClubCasino]

Ok, let me share our (fresh) experience with regards to bonus "abuse" or advantage players.

We paid out and average of XX'XXX per month to players that deposited 1 time and never again. Mostly players organized in groups from the same countries (greece, finland, turkey, netherlands, france). The game used to beat the bonus were mainly pokerthree, carebean, let them ride and some others.

You can do the math for yourselves and see that at poker three betting 10 times the max of 200 you will highly end up in more than 50% of the time in having around 1800 in winnings. This as least was our experience and it was not a viable long term business.

We explicitly state in bold that those games can't be plaid before meeting the WR (http://www.xxlclubcasino.com/terms_promo.html):

Bets placed in the games Craps, Roulette (all sorts of Roulette), Blackjack (all sorts of blackjack), Video Poker (all sorts of Video Poker), Sic Bo, Poker Three and Baccarat does not fulfil the player's obligations with regard to the minimum wagering requirements.

The above mentioned restricted games CAN'T be played before fulfilling the wagering requirement or all winnings will be void.

This information is also added in the emails send to the players when the bonus is given.

To be frankly honest I also dislike to have to restrict some games but the current competition among online casino is forcing us to give this kind of first deposit bonuses and we opted for a relatively low WR of 12x bonus+deposit where other casinos required 25 and up to 80 times WR and give 300% or more. This is in my eyes unfair!

Also reviewing the number of times (total of 13 cases) we had to cut winnings because a player played restricted games before meeting the WR I can fairly assume that the T&C rules are clear to the wast majority of our players. In most cases the problem occurs due to lack of English knowledge by foreign players.

I truly would prefer to highly rewards our loyal players with kickback bonuses that could be played on any games, more the way it happen in landbase casinos. Not one landbase casino in the world would ever give you 200$ for free on your first casino visit for you to gamble on any game you want.

You must understand that any type of bonuses given to players dramatically change the odds of the games from a + house edge do an highly - one. Now due to certain players (group of players) taking great advantage of this facts (never risking their own $ but only the bonuses) their is noway for an online casino investing $ to get new players (signup bonuses) to ever get their marketing costs back as those players will never ever consider to make a second deposit in the casino. The invested $ for new player acquisition is then lost for ever!

This is the reason we tried to setup our bonus program to be fair to the FAIR loyal players and getting a minimal protection against "unfair" players. It is a difficult balance to be fined but I'm confident to have one of the fairest bonus program in the industry compare to the wast majority of other online casinos.

We are currently working with playtech to setup new type of bonuses that would be better tailored to any player taste and therefore meet better our fairness criteria.

Again any input on the way bonuses, incentives should be given is highly welcome.

[lojo]

So glad to see open honest attentive reps here, kudos!

I know it would be a chore to create a software solution, but maybe not. From a players standpoint it would be nice to be playing, hit the button to play roulette and have a pop-up tell me that's not such a good idea, and why.

Simplistic, but sometimes...

[XXLClubCasino]

Originally Posted by lojo

So glad to see open honest attentive reps here, kudos!

I know it would be a chore to create a software solution, but maybe not. From a players standpoint it would be nice to be playing, hit the button to play roulette and have a pop-up tell me that's not such a good idea, and why.

Simplistic, but sometimes...

That's one of the idea we are actually following. On every bonus given a popup in the casino lobby would require the player to acknowledge it and would show the T&C for this special bonus again. The bonus could be also refused at that time. An even more elaborated bonus system would give the player say 100 in bonuses with game restrictions, removing one game from the list would take away i.e 10 from the given bonus...hhmmm maybe i'm talking already too much and give good ideas to our competitors ;-).

[vinylweatherman]

Originally Posted by XXLClubCasino

That's one of the idea we are actually following. On every bonus given a popup in the casino lobby would require the player to acknowledge it and would show the T&C for this special bonus again. The bonus could be also refused at that time. An even more elaborated bonus system would give the player say 100 in bonuses with game restrictions, removing one game from the list would take away i.e 10 from the given bonus...hhmmm maybe i'm talking already too much and give good ideas to our competitors ;-).

Openness is certainly appreciated. I agree that adding the term in bold stating the games can't be played is certainly clear. Was this the case when the OP raised this issue?

You say that the WR is low, and that you feel that the 25x other casinos is unfair, however, I notice that I would be required to wager this "unfair" 25x if I played in my own currency (£), and yet still not be able to play the games that give me a chance. Worse, the bonus is only a play bonus, and can never be withdrawn. The ONLY way to tackle these types of bonus is to find a way of making big bets with a decent chance of hitting big enough. I can see why poker 3 was added, this was from experience rather than just plucking the game out of thin air.
One problem is that in defending the bonuses against players who only want to play once, you are making it look unattractive to other players who take the trouble to read the terms rather than the headlines.
Another thing that might put off loyalty is the fact that the second and third bonuses cannot be used by players who have made a withdrawal from the first one. This might give the impression that loyal players do not generally get bonuses.
One way to gain loyalty is to give the impression that loyal players will eventually get much bigger bonuses by staying with the casino eather than looking for more new player bonuses elsewhere. You would need to ensure that these do not flow until a player has established a depositing record, perhaps by having accumulated so many comp points. I have played at many casinos, but few have attractive promotions for regular players, yet these regular players can see what "their" casino is handing out to newer players.

As well as bonuses, tournaments are a good way to keep players interested, especially with a live scoreboard. A number of MG casinos have introduced these, and the prizes on offer can be impressive. RiverBelle recently ran one with a top prize of £2500, this certainly worked for me as I deposited more during the event than over the past year at the casino - I did, of course, win the tournament (yep, another one tennis_balls )
Other casinos have tried the buy in route, firstly Cryptologic and now Microgaming at Royal Vegas. These will appeal to low rollers as well as high rollers, as the outlay for participation is fixed, and all players start with the same amount of tournament chips and time.

While bonuses are used to attract players, it is important to be clear what is allowed and what is not. Too many casinos have terms whereby they can say they just didn't like your play and lets them confiscate the winnings. This is just too open to misuse, and only serves to provide bad publicity when the aggrieved players argue their case in the forums and the casino is unable to prove they had clear terms.

With 100% to $200 (£200) - it is no surprise you are getting hit by bonus players, this is at the high end for sign-up offers, and there are clever ways around "play" bonuses that are lost on the players you really want to attract, who might simply be put off by the "play" nature of the bonus as against a casino that will let the bonus be withdrawn after the "unfair" 25x or 40x WR.

[tristan727]

Amazing how so many other casinos allow these games but don't go bankrupt - in fact make a healthy profit.

I'm not from any of the countries the rep mentioned, but I still got bonus-banned, before I even played here. I'm VIP at dozens of online casino's - but one Playtech (I have a good guess who, since Totesport had the cheek to deny me a £10 slots bonus I'd earned before they bonus-banned me) took umbrage against a casino session or two I had, and now find myself banned at every Playtech under the sun- most using words I find quite libellious & un-necessary - stuff like 'we have to protect ourselves against fraudulent activity'. Well gee, sorry I spent a weekend playing Blackjack with a 75 x W.R. somewhere instead of 'Hole-in-one' - why don't you stick my photo on a milk carton or something. I don't deposit once & run-off, I am a recurring player who play's 3/4ths card games, and 1/4th fruit/leisure games - sadly this is evidently completely unacceptable to likes of Playtech's.

So here's a suggestion to Mr.Casino rep - simply exclude your Turkish, Nigerian accounts from playing - and focus on the 1st world, keeping vigilant for multiple accounts - offer reasonable bonuses on games where you can't rig it (ie a roulette player betting on black or red) - and watch how many players do stupid things like standing on 14 when dealer shows a ten. You just might find you still have a viable business, even if some people actually know how to play the game. Then, a few months down the line - see who's winning consistently without really risking their own funds - and politely advise them they are no longer welcome to bonuses. Why certain other casino's feel the need to do this after one session, or to also close your account to boot, is beyond me - other than a complete panic & lack of understanding of the business & the effect on their rep.