KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings!

[Linus]

Originally Posted by spearmaster

It is with great sadness that I watch many of you viewing the online casino industry through rose-colored glasses. Everything that a casino does wrong, you slam. Every time a player does wrong, you slam the casino. You know who you are - it's sad that this unrealistic, one-sided view that you have of the industry is ultimately what makes everyone on both sides look bad.

Spear, you just have to accept the fact that people who are casino-affiliates have a different point of view than people who are not.

For those of us who are not, what we see is that affiliates jump to the defense of casinos when they make a mistake, but bash players when they do the same.

No matter how innocent the mistake, no matter how easy it is to make, and no matter how obtuse, confusing, or vague the casino-written rules are.

For us, you're the ones who are wearing the glasses.

[soflat]

KN does not have a catch-all phrase whereby they can nullify winnings. It is unacceptable practice to have a clause where they can void winnings for any reason and I believe CM has taken stances against operators who have such a clause. I think your criticism of the CM folks is unfair.

Most casinos have excluded games. Reputable casinos state whether play at excluded games can nullify winnings.

Bonus terms are changing at all casinos. KN even gives fair warning of the expiration date.

[dominique]

Originally Posted by Linus

Spear, you just have to accept the fact that people who are casino-affiliates have a different point of view than people who are not.

For those of us who are not, what we see is that affiliates jump to the defense of casinos when they make a mistake, but bash players when they do the same.

No matter how innocent the mistake, no matter how easy it is to make, and no matter how obtuse, confusing, or vague the casino-written rules are.

For us, you're the ones who are wearing the glasses.

That card again!

This is such BS.

There are some situations where there is a clear right and wrong, and this is one of them. The rules are the rules, we all, casinos, players, webmasters, whoever, we are all bound by them. Or need to be.

The rules here are clear, and Neptune is ethical to the t. They have no wishy washy T&Cs, no escape clauses, nothing underhanded whatsoever. There is nothing shoddy about this casino. I can give you long lists of shoddy casinos (check my blacklist) but this one is not among them.

Sometimes things are not so clear, or can't be proven by either party and we have a mess. This is not one of those times.

Sometimes we KNOW the casino is crap and just wonder why anyone in their right mind would play there. This is not one of those times either.

None of this has anything to do with being an affiliate. Affiliates and players are in exactly the same boat and need to start listening to each other.

A crappy casino is a crappy casino and it will not pay players or affiliates or the guy who cleans the office either. A crook is a crook, it doesn't matter who gets screwed first. It is not ever smart to ignore when the other guy gets screwed, because you're next.

I guess I can get off my soap box now. Been preaching this for years and always falls on deaf ears anyway.

[Casinomeister]

Originally Posted by Linus

Spear, you just have to accept the fact that people who are casino-affiliates have a different point of view than people who are not.

Just for the record, I don't think Spear is an affiliate anymore since he sold Got2bet. I would say he is more of a player than an affiliate at the moment.

[Linus]

King Neptune's Terms & Conditions:

Terms & Conditions

Back to promotion
100% WELCOME BONUS

* Eligible new players claiming the promotion will be credited with a 100% bonus, up to a maximum of $200, when they make their first real money deposit at the casino.
* Details of how to claim the promotion are noted on the welcome bonus page on the web site.
* Our welcome bonus is offered to you after you make your first deposit. You will not be eligible to claim your welcome bonus if you withdraw your deposit first.
(Example: 1: Make deposit; 2: Withdraw deposit; 3: Claimed Welcome Bonus); therefore
* In order to meet the minimum play through requirements You must play a combination of your initial deposit and welcome bonus; you cannot meet the requirements to withdraw any winnings by playing with the bonus alone (as described in example #3 above).
* If you withdraw your first deposit and then claim the welcome bonus, all wagers & winnings resulting from play using that bonus are null and void. We will cancel and remove your total withdrawal.
* In order to successfully submit a bonus claim, players must submit the special promotion code provided on the site page and in their welcome e-mail.
* Players must claim their bonus using the claim form provided on the web site.
* Once the claim has been successfully submitted, the bonus amount will be credited to the player's casino account immediately.
* Players must claim the bonus within 10 days of opening their casino account. Players claiming after this time will no longer be eligible for the Welcome Bonus.
* This offer may NOT be used in conjunction with any other sign-up offer.
* The 100% bonus is only valid against a New Player's first deposit at King Neptune's Casino.
* This promotion is subject to the casino's terms and conditions of use.

Eligibility

* Eligibility is limited to New Players who register a Real Money Account at King Neptune's Casino between May 1st, 2006 and May 31st, 2006.
* Strictly one Real Account per Household is permitted. This bonus may be claimed only once per person, family, household address, e-mail address, credit card number, and environments where computers are shared (e.g. university, school, public library, workplace etc.). If you already have an account at King Neptune's Casino, you are NOT eligible for this offer.
* Employees, officers and directors of King Neptune's Casino, its promotional or other agencies, licensees and licensors, service providers and any other associated or affiliated companies shall not be eligible for entry. The same terms shall apply to the direct families of such persons.

Minimum Wager Requirements For Bonuses

* Please note that Players must wager the deposit amount at least 15 times plus 15 times the bonus amount on any games except the Excluded Games before making any withdrawals. This is in the interest of fair Casino play considering that any wager at our Casino can return a sizeable winning.
* Excluded Games: this offer excludes play on all forms and versions of: Video, Multihand, and Power Pokers; Blackjack; Roulette; Craps; or Baccarat, and Casino War. Wagers placed at these games will not be deemed as fulfilling the promotion's minimum wager requirement.
* Wagering requirements and game exclusions apply according to the date you claim your bonus and not the date you registered at the casino.
* If you play any of the restricted games, which subsequently results in winnings, this play will not fulfill/complete the play through conditions. These winnings may be deemed null & void and will be removed/confiscated from your account balance or withdrawals at the sole discretion of Trident Entertainment Group.

Promotion Abuse

* Non-compliance with these terms and conditions shall be deemed to be 'Promotion Abuse' and as such shall give the King Neptune's Casino Management the right to at its sole discretion take the following actions against such abusers:
o All winnings on any account/s opened will be null and void and all withdrawals will be cancelled where play has been deemed abusive.
o Abusing Player accounts may be terminated with immediate effect.
o Players found to be abusing promotions may be barred from receiving further promotional offers at the Casino.

GENERAL TERMS & CONDITIONS

*****Bold original.

The following clause seems to say that if you play an excluded game (like the one the OP played) your play at that game will not count toward the bonus wager requirement.

* Excluded Games: this offer excludes play on all forms and versions of: Video, Multihand, and Power Pokers; Blackjack; Roulette; Craps; or Baccarat, and Casino War. Wagers placed at these games will not be deemed as fulfilling the promotion's minimum wager requirement.

It does not say that playing, for example, video poker, will void ALL winnings on ALL games. In fact, it seems to imply the opposite - that the play will simply not count toward the bonus.


A little further down, though, the terms state:

* If you play any of the restricted games, which subsequently results in winnings, this play will not fulfill/complete the play through conditions. These winnings may be deemed null & void and will be removed/confiscated from your account balance or withdrawals at the sole discretion of Trident Entertainment Group.

The first sentence just restates what was in the bolded section.

The second sentence adds, however, that the winnings from the excluded game "may be deemed null and void" at the "sole discretion" of the casino.

This term seems to discount the argument that not voiding his winnings would somehow set a bad precedent - since their own terms say that it's up to them to decide whether to void the winnings.




Finally, the last paragraph states:

* Non-compliance with these terms and conditions shall be deemed to be 'Promotion Abuse' and as such shall give the King Neptune's Casino Management the right to at its sole discretion take the following actions against such abusers:
o All winnings on any account/s opened will be null and void and all withdrawals will be cancelled where play has been deemed abusive.
o Abusing Player accounts may be terminated with immediate effect.
o Players found to be abusing promotions may be barred from receiving further promotional offers at the Casino.

Again, they use the words "may be" and "sole discretion."

Presumably, this is the term under which King Neptune seized the OP's winnings, since they seized ALL of his winnings from ALL of his games - not just the video poker hands he mistakenly played.

So they're saying she's a "Promotion Abuser."

This, despite the fact she played the game 20 hours after they changed the terms and conditions, and played only one excluded game - which was NOT excluded up until twenty hours before she played.


Bottom line - she made an innocent mistake, and they seized her money because she won too much.


Is the casino "within it's rights" to do this?

I suppose so. After all, it's in their terms and condtions. It's within their "sole discretion."


Would I ever recommend this casino - or any casino that labels someone a "promotion abuser" for playing one excluded game the day after they changed their terms and conditions? And used their "sole discretion" clause to seize all of his - sorry - her - winnings, even from games that have not been excluded?

Of course not.

--Not if I liked him.

[spearmaster]

Originally Posted by Linus

Spear, you just have to accept the fact that people who are casino-affiliates have a different point of view than people who are not.

For those of us who are not, what we see is that affiliates jump to the defense of casinos when they make a mistake, but bash players when they do the same.

No matter how innocent the mistake, no matter how easy it is to make, and no matter how obtuse, confusing, or vague the casino-written rules are.

For us, you're the ones who are wearing the glasses.

Linus, I'm not an affiliate - at least not an active one - and not been so for over a year. And Casinomeister is not an affiliate except with a very, very few # of casinos.

I think you would need to deep much further into our individual histories before you can dictate that "affiliate things" color our world - because, plain and simple, they do NOT.

Both of us have track records that speak for themselves, and these records will show that we equally defend all sides. We take the side of the player when the player is right. We take the side of the casino when the casino is right. It's not very hard to do - just follow your instincts, rather than your heart (or pocketbook, depending on who you're talkikng to).

[spearmaster]

Speaking of colored views...

Bottom line - she made an innocent mistake, and they seized her money because she won too much.

Why is it that you allow the numbers to come into the picture? The T&C clearly states that the casino has the right to void winnings, which it did.

Do you have proof that the casino would have PAID the winnings had they been a mere $10? If not, exactly where do you draw the line at what is too much?

Let your imaginations run wild, by all means - but don't read stuff into the situation which simply does not apply. The T&C is clear - that's all that matters. It's not "unclear" or "hazy" or anything of the sort. If it was, it would STILL have been the player's responsibility to ask before entering the contract.

[spearmaster]

Originally Posted by Freudian

Why is is ridiculous to question the casino's motives? Because the obvious conclusion is one you don't like?

Motive is irrelevant until you can show where the casino was WRONG.

And I may remind you that the rules does not state that the casino will confiscate the winnings. It states that the casino may deem them null and void. Most casinos have a clause that claim they may confiscate money for whatever reason they want. Most wisely never use that clause. Would use of that "catch all" rule also be supported by you? If not, why? It is in the rules.

First of all, any sensible person understands that MAY is NOT a supporting argument. It should always be viewed in the WORSE sense possible, not the BEST.

Second of all, this is not a catch-all rule - it clearly states that winnings on excluded games may be voided. It does not say "If we don't like your play we'll void all your play and return your deposit." - you cannot compare apples to oranges.

You and I both know this player isn't a scammer. The casino knows it. They wouldn't use this rule to nail the player if the amount was small. Why piss off a potential customer over a small amount. £8k on the other hand...

Whether the player is or is not a scammer is also completely irrelevant - it was not cited as a reason, nor did the player admit to being a scammer. A lot of people threw this in as an excuse to not support the player, but it is still circumstantial evidence and in any case not proven. I certainly would not have supported a confiscation on the sole fact that the casino had determined that the player was a scammer.

[AussieDave]

Originally Posted by spearmaster

Linus, I'm not an affiliate - at least not an active one - and not been so for over a year. And Casinomeister is not an affiliate except with a very, very few # of casinos.

I don't wish to start anything or let this post be conceived as a personal dig, or least of all derail the topic.

Granted your not an active affiliate Spear, but CM derives income from media buys. Which is technically not an affiliate. Though from Linus's understanding and also from non savvy industry people, using the term "affiliate" may also mean to them holding a business interest to a casino & or gambling venue.

Cheers

[AussieDave]

Adding my 2 cents worth.

I'm a firm believer in following the T&C's to the letter. If the casino states you don't play xyz, then you don't play xyz, it's that simple.

This playing games that don't meet the wagering requirements is BS. It's like crossing the road on a don't walk signal and then wondering why you got run over. It's not rocket science, it's common sense imo.

If you want to flaunt the bonus rules playing games that technically are not allowed, then do so at your own peril.