Tons is confiscated by Europa casino and Tropez

[caruso]

I am still here - clinging on by the proverbial fingernails!

Jetset, some comments:

"Caruso, the news that you are about to launch your own (presumably player advocate?) site helps me to understand your positioning moves here and at WOL. Nevertheless, I wish you good luck"

I should point out that everything I have done recently which is perceived as "positioning", or otherwise politically...corrupt? - is consistent with everything I have ever done. At my first ICE, I buttonholed Playtech over the OCA "fair RNG" issue; at last year's ICE I buttonholed the iGGBA about Gambling Federation's membership; I have been a long-standing critic of eCOGRA (and stated at WOL that I really should have met up with them there and then, hence the suggestion that I DO so do, and the subsequent developments), and called them to task back then over the Lake Palace case, as I have with the current Bella Vegas one; all these events happened before I entertained any more serious thoughts about involvement with The Biz. I have ALWAYS asked tough questions.

Nothing I do, or will do, will in any way be inconsistent with anything I have already done. Neither of my ICE reports were for any purpose other than passing on useul information at the best venues - here and at WOL. If I were behaving at all differently, then my motives could be questioned; however, my behaviour remains consistent with what it has always been. "Positioning", or any other politically corrupt manouvering, no; my consistency absolutely testifies to this.

Of course, you may have meant "positioning" to mean something else, but it smacks to me of political manouvering, so I responded as such.

"I am curious about one thing. Given your previous positions on webmasters and affiliates having conflicts of interest in player disputes, have you now come to accept that it is possible for industry people to handle player issues without bias or favour even if advertising for online casinos? And that would seem to beg the question - will your site be accepting advertising, presumably on a highly selective basis?"

Conflict of interest is an insurmountable problem: in order to have influence you must have interests, because without the interests you will have no power - unless you are a powerful entity unto your self, as Casinomeister is after seven years in the job. The power is in those affy banners you can use to exert influence; without those, you have no power; with those, you have conflict of interest.

Question: you have a 50K media buy up: the casino steals a player's $50 bonus and $100 winnings and refunds his deposit; what do you do? If the casino just THREATENS to, then pays up, what do you do?

If you even have to CONTEMPLATE the answer, you are corrupt.

Any time money changes hands there is conflict of interests and potential for corruption. And of course it happens all the time in this business.

Whether or not I think others can mediate between their advertisers and players "without bias or favour", would I, personally? With the greatest difficulty, as I will always be on the players' side in spirit. That said, all the cases I've commented on at 'Meister or WOL I hope I've looked at fairly, and when I think the casino's right I say so. I do not differentiate between player cheats and casino cheats. Unfortunately, no industry suit will ever look at me as one of the boys, because I am in essence a player - and it is NOT possible to be both player and webmaster. Someone here has claimed this on a number of occasions, that it is possible to be both: it is not possible. In essence, you are one or the other, although you can clearly do both "jobs".

So, I hope that those adverts I do accept will allow me to remain free of corruption. The "selectivity" you mention will go a bit beyond simple repute, as the site I am working on is thematic and many "good" operations will simply not meet the criteria. In fact, pretty much stuff all qualify.

Thanks for the good wishes, anyway. Your invite will remain open - not that I have anything to invite you to right now, lol.

[amandajm]

Smacker. I see you want to watch the watchdog here.

I used to be fairly vehement that responsible webbers should not promote turd. It became unfair, for the webbers that had the balls to post got chastised, while the other 3 million got away scott free. In the end, I built my own blog and have my boycott there. You can't by rights call for a boycott until you make the first move a real one imo.

Don't take content without linking the source. Thereby referencing your point, in my case - however misguided apparently lol. Also ask for permission where appropriate.

Take as much care as you have about you to not get the site you are posting on of others, into a position where they can lose their site in a court of law. Do that with your own site and chattels.

Then you can watch the watchdog.

One day you'll get quoted as proof that the site can accept opposing views. Bryan has earned that right, for I read nion every word written and knows i'll publicise whatever I deem as important but incorrect, but has not barred me yet.

[spearmaster]

Unfortunately, no industry suit will ever look at me as one of the boys, because I am in essence a player - and it is NOT possible to be both player and webmaster.

I suppose you already knew I would react to this.

Meister is a player and a webmaster. I am a player and was a webmaster (well, still am, but not in quite the same sense).

You may think it is not possible to be both - but we have done both successfully. And strangely enough, Meister used to beat the hell out of my affiliate accounts to boot.

I think what you may not understand is that it is not possible to be a "boy" WITHOUT being a player to begin with - for it is us "boys" that understand the mentality of the gambler because we too are gamblers.

Like it or not, believe it or not, your choice. But I dare say that, if anything, we are more player-oriented than business-oriented.

Spearmaster is more or less out of this realm.

Don't write me off just yet I'm just enjoying not having to do all the tedious stuff that I had to do for five years... but I'm also beginning to miss it. In the meantime, cleaning up after you lot over here is more than enough to keep me busy

[elscrabinda]

So do you have no involvement in got2bet anymore Spear?

I guess its unfair then to ask you to explain the promoting on that site of the Del Rio group and even Prestige and Playgate (who are in a whole different league of awfulness)

[jetset]

The Smacker says: "I remember when players' issues came before defending casinos at this site."

No - you're wrong there The Smacker - this site has always been about what is fair, reasonable and balanced for all . That is why it is so respected and successful.

Caruso - you took me around the houses a bit with that somewhat convoluted response (nice personal *commercial* in there too btw!), so I'll summarise, if I may:

1) You are going to start a website (or have already done so?)

2) It will be focused on player advocacy

3) You will be accepting (or have accepted?) advertising from reputable online casinos

4) You do not see any conflict of interest in yourself or others doing this

[scrollock]

anyway gettiong back onto the topic of these "honest" playtech being blameless, as i have already pointed out they are not totally blameless as they are supporting a morally corrupt organization (playtech) which in turn through its provision of software to rogue casinos is resulting in innocent players being out of pocket.

another thing i would like to point out regarding these "honest" playtech, is that from what i gather is that this playtech disputes is a relativly new thing, so is that the reason why these companies joined playtech in the first place? as at the time of joining there wasn't a playtech disputes, i.e. the fact the playtech wouldnt force them to pay up a player if they didnt want to, the attraction that helped in their decision to choose playetch ?

if it wasnt, it is certainly something they knew about when making the decison, also as it seems that the vast majority of these "honest" playtechs are UK based organizations, then they all know the importance of having an independent body to adjudicate on disputes, especially the bookmakers (bet365,betfred & tote) through their day to day involvment with IBAS.

taking this even further, is this the reason why playtech disputes is so hands off, i.e. when these companies joined playtech they were promised that there would be no outside involvment regarding player disputes, and that this is reason why playtech returns all disputes back to the casino.

i can imagine the negotiations now.

BET 365 "why should we choose your software ?"
PLAYTECH "we wont force to you pay any player you dont want to"

after playtech disputes was set up

BET365 "you promised us we wouldn't be forced to pay any player we didnt want to"
PLAYTECH "dont worry, the disputes board is for image sake after pressure from certain watchdogs, any complaints we recieve we will return back to you"

of course i cannot prove anything, however the notion that the "honest" playtech are blamess does need to be seriously questioned though.

should a boycott take place and any financial harm does come to some of these playtech, then i dont think they really have the right to scream "innocence" when they knowingly choose a software that didn't provide any player recourse, something pointed out above that no UK organization can deny the importance of when it comes to the provision of gambling facilities.

[spearmaster]

So do you have no involvement in got2bet anymore Spear?

I guess its unfair then to ask you to explain the promoting on that site of the Del Rio group and even Prestige and Playgate (who are in a whole different league of awfulness)

Spearmaster is a free man. I am no longer involved in Got2Bet, which is now 100% owned and operated by Gaming Corp. All advertising on the site is managed by them, and they receive 100% of the income.

I think you all know my past - if I didn't like and trust a casino, it wouldn't be allowed to advertise on Got2Bet (with rare exceptions through referral by someone else I knew, none of which caused any problems during their tenure on the site).

It was very tough to toe the line and turn away money (and yes, Caruso, I considered it many a time), but in the end Got2Bet and its reputation were more important to me than any advertising funds being dangled in front of me.

I sold Got2Bet because I needed a break, and only because I believed then, and still believe now, that Gaming Corp is a reputable operation. Yes, they do take on some advertisers that I wouldn't take on now. But that's entirely their right.

[Simmo!]

BET 365 "why should we choose your software ?"
PLAYTECH "we wont force to you pay any player you dont want to"

after playtech disputes was set up

BET365 "you promised us we wouldn't be forced to pay any player we didnt want to"
PLAYTECH "dont worry, the disputes board is for image sake after pressure from certain watchdogs, any complaints we recieve we will return back to you"

[caruso]

(nice personal *commercial* in there too btw!)

Jetset, you sly old dog you.

1) You are going to start a website (or have already done so?)

2) It will be focused on player advocacy

3) You will be accepting (or have accepted?) advertising from reputable online casinos

4) You do not see any conflict of interest in yourself or others doing this

I thought I was clear enough. Anyway:

1) Work In Progress. Not ready by a long way. You want a link? Ask Bryan. However, I ask that noone post it on the boards, for the reason just given. Want to make an issue of that? Go ahead, but respect my wishes nonetheless.

2) Not "focussed". In fact, that was never really the idea. However, I figure, given my inclinations, it would ultimately go that way.

3) Yes.

4) I thought I rammed that one home good and hard above! Yes, of course I foresee a conflict of interests. Please see all comments above.

Whatever the topic is we've got onto here, maybe it needs its own thread before we derail the Europa issue forever.

EDIT: I just saw Joeyl started a thread on this subject on the other board.

http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...iscussion.html

Maybe my exchange with Jetset here, and other relevant posts, are better served edited in there somehow, since all this has nothing to do with the player's Europa issue.

[jetset]

It is good to see that your views on conflict of interest seem to have significantly moderated, Caruso, and I am sure that will work well in your new role as a webmaster.

Don't worry too much about the Playtech nature of this thread veering briefly off course - Bryan is all over these guys and is the most likely of all of us to get things moving. I'm sure he'll report back here or in some other form in due course.