Tons is confiscated by Europa casino and Tropez

[jetset]

Paul, you have zero'd in on one of the major aspects of the crooked casino problem right there - these bad eggs can make profits as long as they can keep pulling in *new blood* newbie gamblers who have not yet learned to research and become members of sites like this to protect themselves.

If we could find more ways of reaching the newbie just before he or she ventures online, or as soon as possible thereafter we would be well on the road to creating real and very powerful consumer awareness and influence.

[caruso]

If we could find more ways of reaching the newbie just before he or she ventures online, or as soon as possible thereafter we would be well on the road to creating real and very powerful consumer awareness and influence.

There is plenty of "consumer awareness and influence" right here, as you intimated in your suggestion that Playtech will start to get litigious - which somewhat contradicts your suggestion that the "forum ten percent" really doesn't cut. On the one hand, warn people; on the other hand, bear in mind that Playtech will sue you if you tell the truth. Bit of a non-starter, wouldn't you say?

What happens if I post a bunch of threads along the lines of "Warning: do not play at Swiss Casino" - how long you figure they'll stand?

The way you get the message out, Jetset, is to warn people at WOL, Meister and so on, what's happening; to tell people that these Playtech casinos are stealing (yes, "stealing", spelt s-t-e-a-l-i-n-g, I'm so sorry if that offends anyone) players' money and that action, radical action, should be taken agains Playtech, in WHATEVER form, and encapsulated along the lines of: STAY AWAY FROM PLAYTECH CASINOS.

THEN Playtech might start to tow the line!

But of course, we know this isn't going to happen, becasuse we mustn't upset the handful of "honest" Playtech casinos, and we can't say "stealing" when they're stealing or call them "crooks" when they're "crooks", because we can't risk upsetting Playtech.

So we just talk about it like civilised people and let these uncivilised **oops, I nearly said "crooks" again, sorry chaps** get away with it.

Fine solution.

Playtech, Long May You Prosper.

Jetset, you've called me to task about providing other options given my disagreements with eCOGRA. So what are you options here? Given our extraordinary limitations - we apparently cannot boycott them or in fact say or do anything that might upset them - what are your options?

[thesmacker]

How I see it:

Good Casinos:

Sunny Group

Mapau
Casino fortune
Miami Beach
Gold Gate

Mainstreet

Las Vegas USA
Vegas Casino Online
Sun Palace
Twin Aces
slots.com
Diamond Deal

Kiwi Group

Kiwi
fast win

Gaming Pro

City Club
Race Track

Independent

Brandy
Action Online
Bet Casino
SIA
Mega Sport
tote sport
bet 365
bet fred

Bad Casinos:

Black Widow Group

Black Widow
Grand Banks
Sterling House

Casino Partners

Casino Tropez
Vegas Red
Europa
hammers
Del Rio

ICC

USA Casino
New York Casinos

Empire Online

Joyland
Club Dice
monaco gold
Carnival

IOG

Casino King
Magic Box
Swiss
50 stars
Casino Las Vegas

Prestige Gaming

diamond club
prestige
playgate

Golden Palace Group

Golden Palace
Aspinalls
Grand Online
Flamingo Club
24 kt gold

First Grand

african palace
indio

Bet Rev

Royal Dice
giant vegas

Not Sure:

La isle Casino
Maxima
dafa 888
******
sky kings
acropolis
Baraka
amber coast

To say the good out weighs the bad is to ignore the obvious. If the good casino operators were truly good they would put pressure on Playtech to weed out the problems.

[caruso]

Great list, wrong thread.

http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...mare-list.html

I also got some more information in my snail mail today, and was going to update that list anyway. I will juggle your post into it.

In fact, we are getting a bit general in a thread related to a specific issue.

[thesmacker]

Great list, wrong thread.

http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...mare-list.html

I also got some more information in my snail mail today, and was going to update that list anyway. I will juggle your post into it.

In fact, we are getting a bit general in a thread related to a specific issue.

I was just getting caught up in the first few pages of this thread and the Playtech roguing issue. I just wanted to bring to light that the majority of Playtech casino groups are rogue, and that an all out roguing is the only way to wake the minority "good" casinos into action.

Perhaps some of you have heard of a thing called Democracy, within that system often times the minority in such systems may have to suffer inorder to create the greatest amount of quality of life for the greatest number of people. If we look at this case in those terms I would say that in order to create the optimum scenario within the Playtech Casinos perhaps the minority will just have to suffer a little while for the good of the majority and deal with a Software Provider roguing.

[caruso]

Don't apologise, I'm totally hazy on groups. Your list was great.

[Casinomeister]

Okay, I'm putting my foot - next time it's the iron fist:

But of course, we know this isn't going to happen, becasuse we mustn't upset the handful of "honest" Playtech casinos, and we can't say "stealing" when they're stealing or call them "crooks" when they're "crooks", because we can't risk upsetting Playtech.

The next time I need to step in to tell people to mellow out, I'm locking this thread and giving whomever an extended holiday.

We've been through this before, rule 1.6 - read this carefully:

1.6 - No "Libelous" Posts. Do not make posts that could be considered libelous, defamatory, or posting merely to cause harm to another's business. Opinions are expected, but do not attack others with accusations of criminal activity unless this has been proven in a court of law.

Some of you need to think a bit more before you post. Thank you.

[jetset]

Jeez, Caruso - you are truly the most frustrating poster. I sometimes wonder if you even read other people's posts before thrashing your keyboard.

There are alternatives - you simply have not considered these over your own extreme views. I included them in my post a page back if you had bothered to read it before seizing on the well known litigious nature of Playtech to explode once again.

And I posed legitimate questions that should be thought through before anything as contentious and divisive as a boycott is proposed. And talking about going off topic, eCOGRA has stuff-all to do with the issue of Playtech being boycotted.

My comment about warning and protecting newbies stands, and is completely valid. It builds on your "10 percent" scenario and in no way diminishes that - what is your source for that oft-repeated statistic btw?

I am the last person to doubt the power of this forum, or I would not still be a member after several years here, but spreading the warning and education net further is going to make player protection more effective, and that's the main objective is it not?

Perhaps you should contribute in a practical sense too by starting your own portal and newsletter and publishing warnings on a sustained basis. Or you could even champion a boycott and get a true and exclusive feel for how many would support it and how effective it would really be.

It is plain commonsense that educating substantially more new entry players to research at places like Casinomeister and WOL before gambling is going to:

(a) seriously cut down on rip-off opportunities at those (Playtech) casinos prone to bad practice and

(b) help bring those *bad practice* casinos into line in order to survive in a more player-knowledgeable climate.

You are assuming that everyone here supports the idea of a sustained and indiscriminate boycott against all Playtech online operations. I would hope and expect that this forum has more balance than that.

The Smacker, you posted: "Perhaps some of you have heard of a thing called Democracy, within that system often times the minority in such systems may have to suffer inorder to create the greatest amount of quality of life for the greatest number of people."

I don't believe this is about democracy, because how can it be democratic to punish the good with the bad?

The phrase "for the greater good" used to justify something as indiscriminate as a boycott will always give me pause for thought - that's the sort of philosophy that too many despots have used to justify outrageously undemocratic acts in history.

[caruso]

Of course I read your post. It regarded spreading the word about bad outfits.

Equally of course, per se this is a valid option, tried and tested - I should know that as well as anybody: Angelciti? Cirrus? In the circumstances, it's value may be limited. You say that Playtech is litigious; doesn't surprise me at all but FTR I had no idea - I've not heard of Playtech threatening legal action against anyone. Add to that Bryan's concerns about contentious language, and my guess is that all you will achieve is a somewhat watered-down version of what really needs saying. That is of course better than nothing, but I doubt it will achieve the desired result. I certainly doubt it will put much pressure on Playtech. I am entitled to "doubt", and I am entitled to be "wrong"; you are also so entitled.

The point about eCOGRA - which I thought was clear enough - was that, back then, you called me to task to offer solutions, and I am now doing the same - our roles are reversed. I am AWARE that calling stiff outfits to task is a solution, but I'll repeat that I think it's value is limited in the circumstances. If that is the ONLY solution, fair enough. But this may not be the case - there may be a better one, a more proactive one.

Forum ten percent? Isn't it generally accepted that forum readership is somewhere between ten and fifteen percent of the overall playing public? That's the figure Bryan has always quoted; ask him, not me.

As to your reaction to Thesmacker's comment: are we the "despots" and Playtech the "innocent"? If we were, I could support the anaolgy. As it is, you cannot compare fair-minded online gamblers considering radical ways to pull an irresponsible software provider into line with whatever "greater good" the Nazis, Stalin or whoever may have used as justification for their acts.

Repeat again: I am not saying that calling evil operators to task publically is ineffective per se; I am saying that it MAY be ineffective in the circumstances, and that it may not be the only solution. Remember that, albeit a long time ago and in different circumstances, it was the "boycott" line that Bryan proposed against RTG. Therefore, these things have been considered as effective means against bad software providers. Circumstances and time notwithstanding, this is a fact. Bryan considered himself to be in the right back then; I am not at all convinced that it would be wrong now. Let's face it: RTG have pulled their socks up somewhat.

[Casinomeister]

Remember that, albeit a long time ago and in different circumstances, it was the "boycott" line that Bryan proposed against RTG.

Okay, this is getting a bit whacked out of shape, and I think I need to clarify something because what I stated has been taken completely out of context.

This boycott statement was made on a private board at GPWA and this addressed my overwhelming concern and frustration over a crapload of serious player complaints coming from RTG casinos - one of these was Caruso's BTW. I suggested that webmasters should boycott promoting these casinos - it had nothing to do with players. This suggestion was out there for about fifteen minutes before it was shot down - and at that moment I reconsidered and agreed that it wasn't a good idea. So I stated that webmasters should not be promoting the casinos that were causing these problems - and left it at that. You know the rest of the story.