Visit the Ecogra Office - What For?

[amandajm]

What have you Bryan, or the others if they have anything of note to add - gleaned via these visits, that is not provided as information to the public, as it should be imo?

I gather a handful of webmasters and player advocates have visited the Ecogra offices or at conferences to find out how they really run things.

Those I know of include - You Bryan, Spear, Simmo, Jetset.

I visit their public website, as oft directed to by Jetset, for information.

I do just that, see questionables, I ask on the forums pointed to by Ecogra known for fair and balanced information and via email to the boss Andrew Beveridge. I have not been moved or informed of anything substancial. Not to mention the pointed fingers and patronising accusations like - quote ""I'm confident that we will continue to gain support from the relevant stakeholders, and I trust that time and a fair and balanced assessement will ultimately convince you that eCOGRA is good for both the industry and the players - regards, AB""..

Yet still, I apparently know approximately 50% of the necissary information. Therefore I am naive, ill-informed and annoying for daring to speak.

I gather Ecogra is designed for the player. That must account for what - 99.99% of the world.

As such - what have you Bryan, or the others if they have anything of note to add - gleaned via these visits, that is not provided as information to the public, as it should be imo? Hard facts, experiences, opinion, anything will do. I trust there is much I don't know.

Forget me - why should any player trust ecogra? The fact no player complaints reach the boards about these ecogra casinos is neither here nor there, because for any player to post about a complaint, warrants a forfeiture of "help", therefore Ecogra serves as a good buffer for negative experiences that these boards were good for collecting for future reference.

[caruso]

The human touch is at best a bit of a red herring and, at worst, downright damaging. Nothing can be achieved head to head that can't be achieved impersonally on the net, via email, messenger, fora etc, and when you meet people, you run the risk of LIKING them (yes, even I'm prone to that one); when you like them, your personal, emotive reactions get in the way of your business. It doesn't matter how much you insist they don't - they do, because we're born social creatures.

Cyber-communication is the perfect vehicle for this kind of business, because personalities are NOT obliged to get in the way - and as such, inappropriate bias based on personal like or dislike does not have to be an issue / stumbling block. "He must be OK; heck, I've met him". Nooooooooo no no no.

If I have an issue with something, I prefer NOT to meet its human front. Cynical though I am, I do not trust myself to not be inappropriately swayed. Bryan once made a comment to me starting along the lines of "...if you actually CAME to these events, MET these people..."; although I've been to a few, and met several, this is exactly what I want to avoid. I must be convinced by their product and the cold facts thereof, not influenced by their warm handshake.

[Casinomeister]

The human touch is at best a bit of a red herring and, at worst, downright damaging. Nothing can be achieved head to head that can't be achieved impersonally on the net, via email, messenger, fora etc, and when you meet people, you run the risk of LIKING them (yes, even I'm prone to that one); when you like them, your personal, emotive reactions get in the way of your business. It doesn't matter how much you insist they don't - they do, because we're born social creatures.

Cyber-communication is the perfect vehicle for this kind of business, because personalities are NOT obliged to get in the way - and as such, inappropriate bias based on personal like or dislike does not have to be an issue / stumbling block. "He must be OK; heck, I've met him". Nooooooooo no no no.

If I have an issue with something, I prefer NOT to meet its human front. Cynical though I am, I do not trust myself to not be inappropriately swayed. Bryan once made a comment to me starting along the lines of "...if you actually CAME to these events, MET these people..."; although I've been to a few, and met several, this is exactly what I want to avoid. I must be convinced by their product and the cold facts thereof, not influenced by their warm handshake.

I understand your points, but I have to disagree with several of them. True, we are social animals (some being more animalistic than others ) and we are individuals as well. We (well, most of us anyway) use personal contact to analyze further whatever situation we are in.

I don't necessarily prefer personal contact to cyber-contact; the information that I have on the web, emails, etc., does the trick to an extent. BUT, actual personal contact will either enhance my findings or negate them. So an actual meeting is essential to be able to have a well rounded perspective.

Obviously, the difference in dealing with people in a cyber-way vs face-to-face is that I can have an actual discussion. When questions come to mind, I can ask them right then and there and not have to wait for an email which is devoid of body language. People will tell you things in person that they won't tell you in emails BTW. Also, a face-to-face gives me the opportunity to evaluate the person - mannerisms, speech, interests, industry knowledge, background, etc., and is essential in accomplishing the mission.

The mission? Well for me it's to gather information, and to use this information to assist players, webmasters, and operators if need be. That's it. You too can take the same approach.

Most operators know better than to try and give a dog and pony show, or to baffle me with bullshit, or to figure "hey, he likes beer - buy him a beer." I didn't just jump off some boat y'know. Some operators and marketers will seriously creep you out, and some will make a very good lasting impression. This is essential to figuring out what the hell is going on in this industry. It's a serious business.

Perhaps you need to learn to be able to step back and take in what's going on. I think my years as a paratrooper has helped me to deal with this quite well. You have to think like a Vulcan sometimes.

And do not fear liking someone. Perhaps if you analyze why you like someone, there might be a good reason for this. Hopefully it's because of a commonality like a shared philosophy or an approach to this industry, and not because they bought you a beer.

Back to eCOGRA, I mentioned to Amandajm that since he is in the same city where they have their main offices, he ought to go there and meet with them. It's not a matter of "maybe liking them" it's a matter of having a discussion, sharing information, and hopefully being satisfied with the answers. To continue criticisms is strictly up to you, but if you are only minutes away from their offices, it would only make sense to ask to meet up.

[amandajm]

Back to eCOGRA, I mentioned to Amandajm that since he is in the same city where they have their main offices, he ought to go there and meet with them. It's not a matter of "maybe liking them" it's a matter of having a discussion, sharing information, and hopefully being satisfied with the answers. To continue criticisms is strictly up to you, but if you are only minutes away from their offices, it would only make sense to ask to meet up.

Proximity is irrelevant imo. All info should be for the public eye. Not for the select few who meet. Nothing should be secret. I get my info from the website, where the players will.

The ecogra supporters who tell me I am ill-informed, can inform all readers here if there is anything of note to add.

If I am ill-informed, then so is everyone else but those who have done as you advise Bryan.

I don't just rant and criticise. I point to the info posted on the website and ask - I am not making things up otherwise you guys would be all over me and rightfully so. The same should go for ecogra. They should be word perfect, watertight.

For instance - Egap 113

Terms and conditions applicable to promotional activities shall be clearly displayed and shall not be unreasonably altered subsequent to the wagering activity.

I don't get it. I get this Bryan, I agree with it. It is your own advice. Crystal clear and Ecogra should read it.

The "Not Recommended" casinos are just that, they are casinos that are not recommended because of substandard customer service, poor support, bad bonus terms, and questionable business practices. Simply stated - these are casinos that you should avoid until they have corrected these malfunctions.

[dominique]

I agree with Bryan on the meetings - sometimes it just serves to round out an opinion. I have changed my opinions when meeting people - both ways. Sometimes I was able to look past someone's bad writing abilities and see what they are really saying, and sometimes I see through the BS that gets past me in writing but doesn't make it when I can look someone square in the eye.

Why do you think your mom said "look at me" when confronting you about some misdeed?

As far as eCOGRA goes, I haven't met Andrew or anyone from there yet, but will certainy do so when the opportunity presents itself.

I like to offer decent casinos to my visitors. There are very selfish reasons involved here too, like I want them to come back, I want them to tell their friends that my site is good, and I don't want to get bogged down in negotiating for my players because I don't like dealing with some of the unsavory characters in this business. I like things nice and smooth and I want the casinos to treat the players I send very well, because it reflects back on me.

I have had bones to pick with some of the eCOGRA casinos, and I am outspoken and can be a pest, but when it comes down to basic choices I will pick eCOGRA casinos over many of the other choices out there every time. Because I place more trust in them than a lot of the others. Certainly you can agree that they are a world apart from the casinos on the not recommended list or the rogue list.

There is not even a possible comparison.

The more casinos are part of organisations like eCOGRA or the IGC and so on, the more likely we are to be able to influence them and the more likely they are to stay away from the shenanigans some of the others thrive on.

Hence, eCOGRA is good for players.

[amandajm]

There is not even a possible comparison.

I beg to differ. The casinomeister seal badge at the bottom of casinos would mean a whole lot more to me personally.

If these premises are adhered to, to the letter, no more, no less. Ecogra I am afraid, are miles behind the Meister and if anyone wants to step up and tell me different - shoot.

They must be able to take care of any player issue swiftly and professionally
They must adhere to their own Terms and Conditions.
They must only use seals, banners, logos, etc. to which they are entitled.
They must have no affiliation with "fake" players' advocacy groups.
They must be willing to divulge information about their business.
They must have a clean history of fairness towards their customers.
They must not use spam as a marketing tool.
They must be licensed in a jurisdiction that offers gambling licenses.

And
Don't play at sites licensed in Belize, Venezuela, Eastern Europe.
Don't play at sites with unknown or undisclosed software.
Don't play at sites that hide licensing information.
Don't play at sites that use the phrase "real gambler" or "bonus abuser" in the rules.
Don't play at sites that use the phrase "Legally licensed and fully insured".
Don't make agreements over the phone. Get them in writing.
Don't forget to keep copies of all chat sessions.

The "Not Recommended" casinos are just that, they are casinos that are not recommended because of substandard customer service, poor support, bad bonus terms, and questionable business practices. Simply stated - these are casinos that you should avoid until they have corrected these malfunctions.

I will tell you now - if the Meister tried to pull the "it's random, tried and tested, trust me" without proper discosure, i'd be on him too. Just like with the old OPA.

The Meister also speaks out and tries to address spam issues with all he has. Ecogra don't. They have way more oull over certain firms and don't use it.

The Meister needs to address the spyware/scumware/adware problem fully and I'd call it a full house, not royal perfect.

I will tell you this Dom. The Meister answers my concerns. Not necissarily to my complete satisfaction, but he has not as yet, told me one thing and another another to my knowledge.

[dominique]

Joeyl, I don't know if you remember, but years ago I was the most outspoken anti scum person out there. I called a boycott against lots of casinos employing these advertising tactics, which I did and still do consider theft.

I also called a boycott among affiliates against affcon because Gator (now Claria) was going to present there. There are people who still haven't forgiven me for that - but I don't regret having acted my conscience. One needs to act on one's beliefs.

Today, scum is on it's way out. Popup blockers have taken a huge bite out of it, and advertising that way is just not that profitable for most places anymore unless they are prepared to buy huge blocks of ads and write some of the expense off as branding, not really expecting the normal amount of players for that.

Be that as it may, I don't expect eCOGRA to be responsible for that. I expect eCOGRA to be looking out for players and making the environment for players better. They don't have to be god and cure all evils, they just have to make things better. And I think they do that.

Bryan is a maverick and not an organization. He cleans things up his own way and does a damn good job of it.

I don't expect any organization like eCOGRA to act like an independent maverick. Everyone needs to do their little bit in their way to keep things clean and we will have a better place.

You keep harping on the scum issue - I agree with you, it always has been and still is immoral. So, what have you done about it?

[amandajm]

What have I done about it? Carried on where others have stopped.

I guess you don't read the blog... I stand firm by the principle of not advertising for anyone whatsoever whe keeps the thing going by advertising via spyware, while running all Edleman's news that is related to gambling, while highlighting the firms that do still use it.

& I do not allow a firm like ecogra without a word, to dodge the issue while proclaiming to except no Irresponsible Advertising and Promotions.

Joeyl, I don't know if you remember, but years ago I was the most outspoken anti scum person out there. I called a boycott against lots of casinos employing these advertising tactics, which I did and still do consider theft.

I see you have called off the boycott. I had no site then, now I do, I guess I stand alone then, so be it.

I note that while I am told to "go to the office" to find out what ecogra really do, those that have been have nothing to add. How odd unless there is nothing to add of note.

[dominique]

I never called off the boycott.

People just ignored it after a time, especially once I was not there anymore to help the cause.

The topic of this thread is why you should see Andrew - the answer to that is still what I first said - nothing like looking someone square in the eye to sort things one way or another.

[amandajm]

Okay I see no one has anything to add.

Another thing I am not too pleased about is ecogra being voted casino watchdog of the year at GOM.

I know who the best casino watchdog is and so does everyone else here.